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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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I think that this might have been mentioned before, but wouldn't there be some DNA evidence from those dogs?

There might have been if anyone had tested for it. DNA testing is quite expensive and has some drawbacks:

"Another misconception: DNA testing can only be done on some kind of biologic material (e.g., blood, saliva, semen, skin tissue, hair) that contains an individual's DNA. It cannot be done, for example, on a suspect's fingerprints."

<snip>

"Q: What is the best way of retrieving a DNA sample (i.e., blood, saliva, hair, semen). Does it all offer the same information?


Hair poses particular challenges. The strands themselves will not generate a profile through application of standard DNA testing, which requires the presence of the hair follicle. New advances in mitochondrial DNA testing have produced accepted tests results in recent cases. This testing is prohibitively expensive and is, at this time, only being done by the FBI laboratory. Otherwise, equally valid DNA profiles may be isolated from each of the other bodily fluids mentioned (for semen to generate a DNA profile, the sample must contain sperm). Each can offer the same information with the same degree of precision. Clearly, taking a saliva sample from a suspect is the least physically intrusive.


Q: How often is DNA evidence incorrect and what are the reasons?


We are unable to estimate the error rate in part because far too many forensic laboratories that do DNA testing still are not subject to independent on-site inspection, double blind testing, and peer review. Results may be compromised by contamination of the sample that occurred during the collection process, or by a lab's failure to comply with its own testing protocols, or by some atmospheric or manual contamination in the lab."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dna/etc/faqs.html
 
Back to the insults, I see. Do you think they do anything but show how appallingly immature you are?

Yes, I'm appallingly immature. My comments show nothing else. I think you are insane. Everyone should ignore me and turn their eyes to the forests. A giant stinky ape lives there. Look closely... look closely... look closely...
 
In the past, when DNA samples don't turn up to be a known species, it is always catagorized as "unknown", or "unidentified", because they don't have known sasquatch DNA to match to.

It's the classic Catch-22.

Like skepticism itself.

No, like wooism itself. When something is inconclusive the default is Bigfoot. Why? Because Bigfoot is out there! Right? It's the classic Catch-2222.
 
Yes, I'm appallingly immature. My comments show nothing else. I think you are insane. Everyone should ignore me and turn their eyes to the forests. A giant stinky ape lives there. Look closely... look closely... look closely...

I didn't say your "comments"; I said your "insults". You've actually made some good points from time to time, but if you're going to continue to behave like this I may have to put you in the cyberspace equivalent of "time out". I have better things to do than to argue with a petulant child.
 
Or, they're going extinct in many areas, especially those that are becoming infested with human activity.

Makes you wonder where the environmentalists are with respect to this phenomenon......................

Righto. When mythological creatures cannot be found, it is because they are going extinct. It's the classic Catch-2222.

Makes you wonder where the rationalists are with respect to this phenomenon........
 
I have better things to do than to argue with a petulant child.

Whatever. This petulant child strongly things that it is highly irrational and unreasonable to think that Bigfoot is a real creature.

I think much of your problem (in thinking that Bigfoot is real) is that you place far too much credibility and fidelity in humanity itself. Since Bigfoot has not been confirmed, you are forced to place its validity in the hands of others. You are counting on "experts" and "witnesses" to be correct. You cannot count on Bigfoot itself. Your whole belief is riding on human interpretation.

You know that I think that Bigfoot is purely a myth. I think that folks are both mistaken and hoaxing when they promote the idea that this is really an unconfirmed large bipedal primate species living in American forests. I don't mind being shown that I am wrong with the presentation of biological material showing that this is a real creature. Until then, the Bigfoot believer looks like a crazy sort.
 
Here's my main problem with all that is Bigfoot related.
This thing doesn't behave like any other creature on Earth. If you get near its children, it just picks them up and walks away. If you go into its territory, it doesn't confront you, just walks around your tent at night. It eats meat but it doesn't behave like a carnivore or even appear to have the necessary physiological equipment necessary for hunting and killing. It's a primate of some sort but doesn't live in packs. It's seven to sixteen feet tall but blends seemlessly into the landscape. It has no mating season apparently, doesn't shed, or leave **** piles. It has no fear of humans when we're nearby but never approaches a scientist looking for it.

Now, I'll concede that Bigfoot is possible but that doesn't mean it's plausable. I'm about %95 certain it's a giant hoax. Considering the modern era of Bigfoot fascination was all kicked off by a guy who was later proven to be a practitioner of hoaxes involving Bigfoot, I really don't think there's any reasonable conclusion except to say that it's highly unlikely such a creature exists. We're talking about a very large creature that should be pretty easy to find. Anybody with a pair of binoculars standing at the base of a mountain should be able to pick one of these things out fairly easily for that matter if given enough time. No solid evidence after years of searching equals no reason to believe that this thing exists.
 
I work with and have lots of dealings with professional biologists here in Alaska. There are lots of them, and they're pretty good at what they do.

Not a one of them is looking for a sasquatch, and they will be the first to admit that even when airborne conducting moose or caribou surveys there are various margins of error.

Bears aren't even counted by air for the obvious reasons that it won't work looking for such creatures in a temperate rainforest, even from the air. Their estimated numbers are compiled from the exact type of reports that sasquatch witnesses submit.

If you do know these people then you also know a number of facts that you are not taking in to account, such as:
(i) When you are doing field work, quite often you find what you are not looking at. For example, you are looking for bears and find elks.
(ii) Even tough airbone surveys are subject to error, animals are still spotted, and most animal population surveys are not made using airplanes or helos, the main transport method are the researcher´s feet.
(iii) There are reliable evidence for the existence of bears, such as avaliable specimens of black bear, as well as sharp footage that are not under suspicion of bein hoaxes.
(iv) Those folks are good, and would not let a 3m-high ape pass unoticed.


But the government biologists aren't too interested (yet) in sasquatch reports. If you have the rare sighting or shooting of such you need to find and notify the few biologists/anthropologists in the Pacific Northwest that are active in the field, and who aren't funded like government agencies are.

Bios working for unis are all also within this category? So, if someone manages to shot a bigfoot he/she must not go to any government employee because they will not care?

Why no biologist working in the field has ever found reliable evidence for the existence of bigfeet? Why no wildlife photographer (pro or amateur) managed to capture them on film?


Rob Alley's "Raincoast Sasquatch" even has a well documented case of state and federal habitat professionals being brought in on the investigation of a nest found by private logging interests. The results aren't surprising.

What exactly are you suggesting here?

The commonly offered cop-out. First the skeptic demands evidence, then when you give it to them they want reliable evidence. Later it's proof.

It never ends. You end up having to rub their noses in it, and they still deny.

That's the legacy of an ideology built on a foundation of doubt.

And above we have the standard creduloid answer...
Since the begining of the bigfeet threads all of we who are skeptical on bigfeet existence as a real creature have stated what we think are reliable evidence - a specimen, living or dead and sharp footage under no suspicion of fraud (no, this is not impossible). No one would deny these pieces of evidence, and we all would bow and say, OK, we were wrong. Cool!
The request for a proof is an extrapolation that you created by yourself.

Now, what would it take for you to accept that these creatures may not be real?

...The "fossilized theories" that science and critical thinking brought us created the computers we use to have this conversation, airplanes, unveils the codes "written" in DNA, the theory of evolution, comprehension of ecosystems, medicines, etc....QUOTE]

Fossils have nothing to do with technology.

The search for fossils is fine, but it shouldn't completely take the place of confirming the evidence at hand regarding possible living species.

So, fossils have nothing to do with technology? I don´t think so...
What are you proposing? That people working with fossils should stop and start looking for bigfeet? Based on the reliable avaliable evidence (blurry pictures, footprints and sighting reports)?

If so, we can also stop SETI and all work being made with exobiology (and related fields) and start studying UFOs! Lets stop all research on neurobiology and the origin of consiousness and start studying ghosts!

I don't know.

But reasoned judgement brings us flexibility, adaptability, improvement, hope, knowledge, and many other attributes.

All the above (but regarding the "many other attributes" - define them and then we can discuss) but with critical examination of the avaliable evidence. Otherwise, you´ll get the old garbage-in-garbage-out principle.

Denying possibilities with prejudice, despite evidence that is very reasonable and reliable, with lame excuses will come back and nip one in the backside.

I am not denying possibilities with prejudice. I want something that can be used to justify the possibility - using your own word, something reasonable and reliable. Something that can truly back the possibility. Something that so far has not surfaced. If you go to the start of all these discussions, you'll see that I once wrote that IMHO the existence of bigfeet as a real creature is possible but improbable, given the avaliable evidence.

And bigfoot belivers... Do they deny the possiblity that the creature may not be real?

When it comes to bigfoot, the lame excuses are coming from the so-called "experts", regarding their lack of abillity to provide reliable evidence.
 
Here's my main problem with all that is Bigfoot related.
This thing doesn't behave like any other creature on Earth. If you get near its children, it just picks them up and walks away. If you go into its territory, it doesn't confront you, just walks around your tent at night. It eats meat but it doesn't behave like a carnivore or even appear to have the necessary physiological equipment necessary for hunting and killing. It's a primate of some sort but doesn't live in packs. It's seven to sixteen feet tall but blends seemlessly into the landscape. It has no mating season apparently, doesn't shed, or leave **** piles. It has no fear of humans when we're nearby but never approaches a scientist looking for it.

There've been about four scientists out looking for them that I can think of. The 8' male that left the Skookum 2/3 body imprint was fairly close to the late Dr. LeRoy Fish, a zoologist on the expedition. (The imprint was pronounced to be that of an unknown hominid primate by the country's leading primate anatomist after four examinations. The news story didn't get out of Denver.)


There are a few reports of them being sighted by campers, but they don't often walk around tents at night. One reached into a tent in one report, though. As I recall, the fellow in the tent was a wildlife biologist or something. I'll have to look it up.

They are very well camoflaged for life amongst the trees in the dark forests of the PNW. There are reports of them hunkering down and resembling stumps. A pair was seen to freeze on a Canadian beach. If they'd been in forest they would have "seamlessly" blended in. And what would stop them from stepping behind a tree? They evidently can move very rapidly, so pursuit is useless, and what would you do if you caught up with one?


They're omnivores and may scavenge. (It's thought our earliest hominid ancestors scavenged, BTW.) Chimpanzees relish meat when they can get it, but they lack the "necessary" equipment too, except for hands, teeth.......(it took Goodall months to find a troop even though they were rather boistrous and confined to an accessible valley, BTW). There are a number of reports of Sasquatches after fish and one report I just read of one going after a wounded moose. They're opportunistic, it would seem. One rather grisly report involved the twisted-off heads of deer.

Bindernagle notes reports of rock-throwing and the similarity there to Great Ape behavior. It would seem they do defend territory at times. They've been seen in pairs and small family groups. A group of six was seen crossing a Canadian highway. There are other primates that live this way rather than in "packs" - us, for example.

Seems you're misinformed on a couple of points. They do leave feces, by the bucketload, and some has been analyzed. The heights are more in the 6'-8' range although there were sightings of exceptionally tall animals within 100 miles of Big Horn Dam, Alberta, Canada. Steenburg thought these reports were exaggerated by frightened witnesses, but they stopped in 1984. He found that even more interesting than that all the reports were from the same area.There've been reports of normal-sized individuals from the area as well. He speculates there could have been a few exceptionally tall individuals (happens in our species, too) that died off, although he still thinks the reports were exaggerated.

Sasquatches are hominids. I can think of one other hominid that doesn't have a mating season. However, due to considerations of weather and the young being at risk there probably is an optimum time for mating and a gestation (9 months?) that would allow for some growth of the infant before hard weather sets in. Needless to say, more evidence is needed.

Now, I'll concede that Bigfoot is possible but that doesn't mean it's plausable. I'm about %95 certain it's a giant hoax. Considering the modern era of Bigfoot fascination was all kicked off by a guy who was later proven to be a practitioner of hoaxes involving Bigfoot, I really don't think there's any reasonable conclusion except to say that it's highly unlikely such a creature exists.

Would that be Ray Wallace? He didn't kick it off. There were giant tracks found around one of his operations in 1958. Jerry Crew took a cast to the local paper and the name "Bigfoot" was born. Investigators were on to Wallace with his tall tales and fakery for years. He never confessed to faking the 1958 tracks; his family "just knew" he did and they "confessed" for him after his death. The story was picked up and distorted by the media:

"The story was hot, and it was everywhere -- on TV, newspapers, and radios around the world -- in December 2002. It proclaimed that "the truth can finally be told about Big Foot". Virtually every major newspaper and broadcaster in the United States fell for it. A family had "finally come forward to reveal the truth". They claimed their deceased father had started the whole legend. It was all him. He was Bigfoot. They said they knew it, and they had the fake tracks to prove it.

The Wallace family proudly exhibited some wooden track stompers to the press. They claimed these were used by their father, Ray Wallace, to create the legend of Bigfoot in the late 1950's. It was only a harmless prank, they explained, but it got out of hand and took on a life of its own, with the help of Ray.

Different members of the Wallace family told different versions of the story. Some claimed Ray only started the legend, then other people apparently faked other tracks in other areas. Various other Wallace family members claimed that Ray made all the tracks himself, anywhere and everywhere they appeared.

The media bought all of it. There was nothing the media wasn't going to believe.

Some Wallaces claimed Ray was behind the Patterson footage as well. Ray's widow said it wasn't her in that costume, and she didn't know anything about it. The rest of the Wallaces still wanted to credit Ray for the Patterson footage somehow. They could only say they were sure he had something to do with it.

Even after thousands of credible eyewitnesses had come forward over the years to report their sightings, and piles of scientifically valuable evidence had been collected, the media still continued to falsely claim there is no evidence for the existence of bigfoots. But ironically, when a rural family came forward with some far-fetched, inconsistent claims, about a man who was locally famous for being a wild story teller, and his son held up some carved wooden track stompers ... that was nothing short of unquestionable proof to the mass media, and so it was affirmed by Jay Leno of NBC, Aaron Brown of CNN, Shepard Smith of Fox News, The New York Times, etc., etc.

Many people were amazed and confused at the downright ignorance of the media. People knew that sightings, encounters and track finds extended far back into the American history. They also knew the only significance of the 1958 finds was that the term "Bigfoot" was first coined then, and that term eventually supplanted the hundreds of local names across the continent, such as the Boggy Creek Monster of Arkansas, the Skunk Ape of Florida, the Mountain Devils of Vermont, the Omah of Northern California, and the Wendigo of the Great Lakes region.

The only thing that began in 1958 was the familiar nickname most people came to remember, not the track finds, the sightings, or anything else related to this subject.

Bigfoot researchers knew more about the Wallace family's claims, because they had dealt with Ray since the 1960's:

Ray's fake tracks and stompers were on display, hanging on the walls of his roadside tourist shop for years. The Wallace family recently implied that Ray had kept them in hidden since the 1960's.

Ray himself never claimed to have created the original "Bigfoot" tracks. His family attributed it to him only after his death -- conveniently when he wasn't around to deny it, or to be cross-examined by the surviving people who had been to the site at the time. Even the locals, like Al Hodgson in Willow Creek, who knew Ray Wallace well in the 1950's, say he wasn't in that part of California when the first tracks were found. All Wallace did, according to Hodgson, was complain that the footprints were making his workers quit and driving his company out of business.

The family didn't realize that Ray's fake casts weren't even the same size and shape of the 1958 casts. The news media didn't want to complicate their hot story with that troublesome fact -- Wallace's fake casts and stompers do not match the "Bigfoot" casts. No one in the media bothered to look at the obvious discrepancies in the photos. In one photo a Wallace family member holds the stompers he claims Ray used to make the original "Bigfoot" tracks found by Gerry Crew. The other one is the famous photo showing Gerry Crew holding the large cast which inspired a local reporter to coin the term "Bigfoot". It didn't matter to the media that they are visiblly different foot shapes. The story was too hot to treat responsibly. And it was about a "myth", so it didn't require any of the usual fact checking.


The scariest 'Big Brother' anecodate from the Wallace media blitz: The New York Times story.

On January 3, 2003, the New York Times ran a front page story with the headline "Search for Bigfoot Outlives the Man Who Created Him". In the story reporter Timothy Egan painted the whole subject as one driven by foolish beliefs of people in the Northwest, and suggested there was no credible evidence.

Like many of the other misleading stories, it completely bought into the Wallace family claims. It credited Wallace as the one who created the whole legend, and perpetuated it over the years.

In one part of the story Egan writes, "Bigfoot defenders, including at least two scientists and a clinical psychologist who says he ran into the Big Guy two years ago in southern Oregon, are undeterred. They give Mr. Wallace credit for the hoax, which led to news stories around the world and began thousands of campfire debates. But, they say other evidence is too strong ..."

The three people Egan was referring to are Dr. Jeff Meldrum, Dr. Henner Fahrehbach, and Dr. Matthew Johnson.

Dr. Johnson told Timothy Egan squarely that he didn't know one way or the other about the Wallace family claims. He didn't give Wallace credit for any hoax whatsoever, and didn't know anything about him.

Dr. Fahrenbach told Egan right up front that he knew Wallace faked tracks in the past, but Fahrenbach made no comment about the 1958 tracks -- the "hoax" Egan refers to above. Egan didn't question Fahrenbach about his stance on that episode, and Fahrenbach says he certainly "did not give Wallace credit for that one." Fahrenbach was shocked to read Egan's article, wherein he found more than one statement falsely attributed to him.

The most egregious false attribution came from Egan's interview with Dr. Meldrum. During Egan's phone interview, Meldrum similarly did not "give Mr. Wallace credit for the hoax". But, unlike the others, Meldrum did have something to say about it. He explained to Egan how he could prove that Wallace didn't have anything to do with the 1958 "Bigfoot" tracks. Egan asked Meldrum detailed questions about how he could demonstrate it. Meldrum explained himself in detail.

Regardless of whether Egan accepted Meldrum's analysis, Egan clearly got the message that Meldrum did not give Wallace "credit for the hoax". Meldrum did say he had some likely fake casts from that region which could have been made by Wallace, but those were clearly distinguished from the specific track finds Egan was asking about.

Of the two PhD's and the one clinical psychologist who were interviewed by Egan for this New York Times story, all of them say that Egan falsely attributed statements to them. Of those three people, only one had any comments about the 1958 track finds, and those comments were exactly the opposite of what Egan attributed to all three of them. Egan's cross-examination of Meldrum over the phone during their interview makes it certain that Egan knew Meldrum did not give Wallace credit for the tracks in question, yet this is what Egan wrote, for the front page of the New York Times, January 3, 2003.

If a politician, celebrity or prominent businessman had done something like this, it would have been a major scandal ... and would have been vigorously investigated by the New York Times."

http://www.bfro.net/news/wallace.asp#commentary



We're talking about a very large creature that should be pretty easy to find. Anybody with a pair of binoculars standing at the base of a mountain should be able to pick one of these things out fairly easily for that matter if given enough time. No solid evidence after years of searching equals no reason to believe that this thing exists.

Are you serious? Get the funding to stand at the base of the mountain (never mind the trees and the brush that tends to conceal anything over five feet away) and you'll have all sorts of support from investigators trying to get confirmation of these elusive, mostly nocturnal far-ranging, rare animals. Let me know how it turns out.
 
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In the past, when DNA samples don't turn up to be a known species, it is always catagorized as "unknown", or "unidentified", because they don't have known sasquatch DNA to match to.

It's the classic Catch-22.

Like skepticism itself.

This stuff is ridiculous. Mostly because the proported DNA "evidence" is held tightly within the Bigfoot community. The suggestion that good DNA is declared after evaluation to be "unknown" or "unidentified" is really weird. One would think that the analysts could at least say that it is primate DNA.

What we are facing is the dissemination and interpretations of scientific evaluations coming from Bigfooters themselves. This is a desperate and delusional bunch of folks. Bona-fide quality DNA samples that cannot be attributed to any living species ought to be of high interest to geneticists and particularly (in this case) to primate geneticists.

The ongoing argument of Bigfooters is that mainstream science either ignores this evidence or intentionally "looks away". Bullcrap. Bigfooters habitually and ritualistically declare a broad conspiracy involving science and the concept and possibility of Bigfoot. Bullcrap.

Just why is the "best" physical evidence for Bigfoot held so tightly within the Bigfooter community? Why aren't these "DNA samples" and Skookum casts just turned over to scientific institutions and universities, instead of being held within the world of Bigfootery and its sympathetic "experts"?

We recently were presented with eyewitness accounts of a Bigfoot running amuck in a Yukon community. Hair samples were presented for analysis and they were found to match bison. Are we to then assume that a bison was really the animal that was running amuck in the Yukon? Bullcrap. This was a hoax scenario that had elements of mass hysteria. Are we supposed to believe that good people might innocently mistake a buffalo for a Bigfoot? Bullcrap.

Bigfoot is a myth and we also happen to live in a culture that is sometimes prone to give the benefit of doubt where none is rationally justifiable. Presently, belief in Bigfoot is highly irrational and unreasonable. That could change if only substancial evidence could be presented. It has not been. Bigfoot remains as the great American myth. It will probably endure as such forever.
 
...and you'll have all sorts of support from investigators trying to get confirmation of these elusive, mostly nocturnal far-ranging, rare animals. Let me know how it turns out.

What do primatologists have to say about the idea of a noctural primate that does not have huge eyes?

Let me know how it turns out.
 
If you do know these people then you also know a number of facts that you are not taking in to account, such as:
(i) When you are doing field work, quite often you find what you are not looking at. For example, you are looking for bears and find elks....

That is true, not only of biologists performing species census, but of hunters looking for specific species to harvest.

Do you know how many testimonials have been submitted by hunters (and others) that they have seen what they believe to be a sasquatch, or sasquatch footprints?

...Even tough airbone surveys are subject to error, animals are still spotted, and most animal population surveys are not made using airplanes or helos, the main transport method are the researcher´s feet....

Many methods are utilized; even counting feces pellets.

My point is that aerial surveys are not used in what is often believed to be the best sasquatch habitat; dense, coastal, mountainous temperate rainforest.

...There are reliable evidence for the existence of bears, such as avaliable specimens of black bear, as well as sharp footage that are not under suspicion of bein hoaxes...

There's also reliable evidence for the existence of sasquatches; there just isn't much of it. That indicates that there aren't very many of these creatures, and that liklihood also helps explain why most folks (especially those inexperienced with wildlife and habitat) are highly skeptical of their existence.

...Those folks are good, and would not let a 3m-high ape pass unoticed...

Who says that professional wildlife managers have not noticed these creatures?

What evidence do you have to support that belief?

...Bios working for unis are all also within this category?...

Yes, I believe most are.

...So, if someone manages to shot a bigfoot he/she must not go to any government employee because they will not care?...

If I had shot one I would not bring it to a government agency, because they might easily fold to political pressure and either throw the thing away, or prosecute me for killing it.

I would bring it to one of the few accreditted scientists that are demonstrating interest in the phenomenon, and let him deal with the two-legged wolves.

...Why no biologist working in the field has ever found reliable evidence for the existence of bigfeet?...

I believe they have, and I believe they had good professional reasons to simply let the issue die rather than deal with current ideological resistance to the phenomenon.

...Why no wildlife photographer (pro or amateur) managed to capture them on film?...

I believe it has happened. I believe that the Patterson film is real. The resulting circus is a prime example of why many believe that further attempts to photograph these creatures is worse than useless; it may result in misery.

Rob Alley's "Raincoast Sasquatch" even has a well documented case of state and federal habitat professionals being brought in on the investigation of a nest found by private logging interests. The results aren't surprising.


What exactly are you suggesting here?

That an Alaska Dept. of Fish and Game habitat biologist and a USGS Forester were shown evidence of a sasquatch, hair and feces samples were collected, photographs were taken, the feces and hair were analyzed, the results were not published, and the samples submitted to the agencies were "lost", and the specimens which were in private hands (found on private property) remain in existence.

That's the story. Doubt it? (Of course you do!).

...Since the begining of the bigfeet threads all of we who are skeptical on bigfeet existence as a real creature have stated what we think are reliable evidence - a specimen, living or dead and sharp footage under no suspicion of fraud (no, this is not impossible). No one would deny these pieces of evidence, and we all would bow and say, OK, we were wrong. Cool!
...

It isn't impossible for some, but for others it is. Many have openly stated that only a carcass will convince them. There are even people who openly state that lunar landings were hoaxes.

Some people can never learn.

...Now, what would it take for you to accept that these creatures may not be real?...

Reliable and repeatable physical evidence.

Got any?

...So, fossils have nothing to do with technology? I don´t think so...

So explain to me what primate fossils in Botswana have to do with photography, weapons development, satellite positioning, etc.

...What are you proposing? That people working with fossils should stop and start looking for bigfeet?...

Some, yes.

And, since fossil archeology has plenty of people in the field already, academic focus can turn toward a deeper look at this field, encouraging students to look into the subject.

...Based on the reliable avaliable evidence (blurry pictures, footprints and sighting reports)?...

Yes.

...If so, we can also stop SETI and all work being made with exobiology (and related fields) and start studying UFOs!...

SETI is a UFO related study. It is, by definition, a Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence.

...Lets stop all research on neurobiology and the origin of consiousness and start studying ghosts!...

Let's research it all.

...I am not denying possibilities with prejudice. I want something that can be used to justify the possibility - using your own word, something reasonable and reliable. Something that can truly back the possibility....

You want it?

I suppose you want it delivered; shipment pre-paid?

Have you looked for it? Have you even camped out for a single evening in an area with a high density of sasquatch reports?

Seek and ye shall find. Do not seek, and you probably won't find.

It's like the old joke goes:

Why is it that you find your lost keys in the last place you look?

Because you stop looking for them when you find them.

But guess what happens when you don't look?

You won't find them, unless you stumble upon them, and you won't stumble upon them unless you're stumbling around where they happen to be.

And if you don't look for them, and somebody keeps moving them to hidey-holes, you'll never stumble upon them.

...Something that so far has not surfaced....

It has surfaced. It's just that very little of it has been handed to you, and that which has you have judged "inconclusive" or hoaxed.

...If you go to the start of all these discussions, you'll see that I once wrote that IMHO the existence of bigfeet as a real creature is possible but improbable, given the avaliable evidence....

And I believe that the existence of sasquatches is likely, given the available evidence.

...And bigfoot belivers... Do they deny the possiblity that the creature may not be real?...

I don't. I believe the odds are 95% in favor of existence.
 
This stuff is ridiculous. Mostly because the proported DNA "evidence" is held tightly within the Bigfoot community. The suggestion that good DNA is declared after evaluation to be "unknown" or "unidentified" is really weird. One would think that the analysts could at least say that it is primate DNA.

Some hair samples have been identified as unknown primate. I don't know of any DNA being tested yet. That would take a follicle or tissue sample. There was hope there'd be saliva on the chewed fruit peels at the site of the Skookum imprint, but the sample refused to give up products for amplification. The hair tested was so close to human contamination couldn't be ruled out, but physical examination indicated it was not human.

What we are facing is the dissemination and interpretations of scientific evaluations coming from Bigfooters themselves. This is a desperate and delusional bunch of folks. Bona-fide quality DNA samples that cannot be attributed to any living species ought to be of high interest to geneticists and particularly (in this case) to primate geneticists.

The tests on hair and feces have been done by independent labs. To my knowlege no DNA has been recovered yet. Does it bother you that you're disseminating false information?

The ongoing argument of Bigfooters is that mainstream science either ignores this evidence or intentionally "looks away". Bullcrap. Bigfooters habitually and ritualistically declare a broad conspiracy involving science and the concept and possibility of Bigfoot. Bullcrap.

Maybe you should read up on some of this before you go spouting off? Dr. Krantz, e.g., as I've suggested dozens of times, who spent years butting heads with the scientific establishment. He summed up their refusal to even look at the evidence as "I'll see it when I believe it." There were exceptions, of course. Dr. Tim White was one; he remained neutral, but he looked.

Are there any moderators present or is your manner of speaking an acceptable style of debate on this board? On BFF the thread would have been locked and JayDee would probably be washing your mouth out with soap by now.

Just why is the "best" physical evidence for Bigfoot held so tightly within the Bigfooter community? Why aren't these "DNA samples" and Skookum casts just turned over to scientific institutions and universities, instead of being held within the world of Bigfootery and its sympathetic "experts"?

What DNA?

The Smithsonian refused to look at the Skookum Cast, even if someone drove it across the country, as has already been discussed. It has been open for inspection by qualified investigators from the beginning as is Dr. Meldrum's footprint cast collection at Idaho State. It may be on public display (or copies anyway- Noll and Green were working on that) in Seattle by now. Patterson took the PGF to Yerkes, the American Museum of Natural History and to the Smithsonian. Dahinden took it to Russian scientists at his own expense after mainstream American scientists mostly rejected it for some rather vague reasons. The result was the favorable reports from the biomechanics experts there (biomechanics was in it's infancy at the time).

We recently were presented with eyewitness accounts of a Bigfoot running amuck in a Yukon community. Hair samples were presented for analysis and they were found to match bison. Are we to then assume that a bison was really the animal that was running amuck in the Yukon? Bullcrap. This was a hoax scenario that had elements of mass hysteria. Are we supposed to believe that good people might innocently mistake a buffalo for a Bigfoot? Bullcrap.

Of course not, especially when the hair turned out to be from a long dead Wood Bison. There were sightings by First Nations people familiar with Wood Bison, which were once thought to be extinct, BTW. How many documented cases of mass hysteria are there, anyway, where people in different places share the same delusion? The animal wasn't "running amok". It was seen by hunters well away from the village prior to the story breaking. It looked into a window, didn't it? There are other reports like that.

Bigfoot is a myth and we also happen to live in a culture that is sometimes prone to give the benefit of doubt where none is rationally justifiable. Presently, belief in Bigfoot is highly irrational and unreasonable. That could change if only substancial evidence could be presented. It has not been. Bigfoot remains as the great American myth. It will probably endure as such forever.

Or one could be shot tomorrow and you'd be served crow for dinner. You might want to label some of your pronouncements IMO, or IMHO. Safer than way, IMO.
 
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What do primatologists have to say about the idea of a noctural primate that does not have huge eyes?

Let me know how it turns out.

Just about everything on them is huge. Steenburg's investigations don't seem to bear out nocturnalism, but in this country most reported sightings are at night. (Seems some members of our species can be nocturnal too and we don't have huge eyes, do we?) Sasquatches seem to be most active around dawn and dusk as are many other mammals.
 
Woos are in the House of JREF.

I guess so, and we're both over fifteen.

Even James Randi isn't entirely adverse to all this. He has a "Show me" attitude rather than an "I'll reject everything you show me" attitude.
 
Lot of people here seem to think that if they blather enough on a message board they can conjure up a fully formed Bigfoot out of nothing but wishful thinking and fallacious arguments.

Still no DNA, still no body, still no Bigfoot. There is no proof, only some very poor evidence.

Am I the only person willing to say that those who claim that they have Bigfoot DNA are flat out lying?

Well, here goes. You're lying. Where is it? You don't have to send it to me. I'd be happy with a published paper showing the exact proof for why the DNA is from an unknown primate, describing in detail the methodology, eliminating any but the tinest chance of contamination or misinterpretation.

Why haven't I seen that? Because there isn't any. Those who say there is are lying or delusional.

Feel free to bask in the "reality" of your own delusions if it makes you feel special to think you have hidden knowledge. There are worse things you can do with your time, afterall.

There is no DNA of a Bigfoot. There is no Bigfoot. And that is true whether I say it or not.

All you have to do is show us a body or some good DNA evidence. That's all. I'm waiting. Arguments on a message board are not a body or DNA.

I'd loved to be proved wrong. Then again, I'd like to have telekinesis and live forever too. It's not going to happen.

This thread has run its course and I really don't see how any further discussion can be productive. We're getting into the territory of pseudoscientific intellectual masturbation here. I'd say "Don't feed the trolls," but to the credit of everyone who has participated, there has been little to none of that. Instead I'll just say, "Stop baiting the woos."
 
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This stuff is ridiculous. Mostly because the proported DNA "evidence" is held tightly within the Bigfoot community. The suggestion that good DNA is declared after evaluation to be "unknown" or "unidentified" is really weird. One would think that the analysts could at least say that it is primate DNA.....

In the case of the hair/feces analysed at the behest of the Alaska Dept. of Fish and Game, that's exactly what is reported to happen. The closest match was said to be resemble that of "an Asian primate".

See "Raincoast Sasquatch", by Robert Alley.

Much of the reasons physical evidence is so tightly held is because of the human nature of thinking of it's monetary value, and not wanting to lose control of it because of greed. You can also see it in how sasquatch researchers treat each other. It's classic human nature.

...What we are facing is the dissemination and interpretations of scientific evaluations coming from Bigfooters themselves...

Now that's a real gem, Mr. Parcher.

Of course, anybody expressing interest in the subject will be considered a "Bigfooter", won't they?

...Bona-fide quality DNA samples that cannot be attributed to any living species ought to be of high interest to geneticists and particularly (in this case) to primate geneticists....

Yup. And it is.

And when analysis shows it doesn't match anything, it is (in accord with the "Scientific Method"), labelled "inconclusive".

Anything else would have you crying foul.

Well, in my opinion, big deal. You'll cry foul, anyway, regardless what is found.

...The ongoing argument of Bigfooters is that mainstream science either ignores this evidence or intentionally "looks away". Bullcrap. Bigfooters habitually and ritualistically declare a broad conspiracy involving science and the concept and possibility of Bigfoot. Bullcrap....

You probably also propound that the mass media is "fair and balanced", and without an ideological agenda, huh?

...Just why is the "best" physical evidence for Bigfoot held so tightly within the Bigfooter community?...

Greed and selfishness in some cases, mistrust in others, frustration in some, and hoaxed in many other cases.

...Why aren't these "DNA samples" and Skookum casts just turned over to scientific institutions and universities, instead of being held within the world of Bigfootery and its sympathetic "experts"?...

I'm working on it. I may have an opportunity to get some possible physical evidence (that shows great promise) to an active primatologist who is willing to perform DNA analysis himself at a low cost that would be subsidized by an academic institution.

...We recently were presented with eyewitness accounts of a Bigfoot running amuck in a Yukon community. Hair samples were presented for analysis and they were found to match bison. Are we to then assume that a bison was really the animal that was running amuck in the Yukon? Bullcrap....

Your prejudice (pre-judgement; very unscientific) is being widely displayed, Mr. Parcher.

Did you know that Teslin is in a Canadian National Bison Reserve?

I'll bet you don't even know that they aren't even Plains Bison there. They're Wood Bison.

Know the difference? Know the history? Know anything about the subject at all?

...This was a hoax scenario that had elements of mass hysteria. Are we supposed to believe that good people might innocently mistake a buffalo for a Bigfoot? Bullcrap....

Have you considered the possibility that people saw something (not the first time in that area over the past 1 1/2 years) that they thought was a sasquatch, then found a clump of hair, came to the erroneous assumption that it was sasquatch hair, somebody analyzed it, and it was found that it was bison hair?

Does that mean, therefore, that there definately, positively, for sure was no sasquatch in the area?

I say maybe there was, and maybe there weren't. I don't know.

Neither do you.

...Bigfoot is a myth and we also happen to live in a culture that is sometimes prone to give the benefit of doubt where none is rationally justifiable. Presently, belief in Bigfoot is highly irrational and unreasonable....

And what of the cultures going back as far as recorded history, because this is not new. This phenomenon is endeared by every American aboriginal culture in existence.

Are you claiming that in this age of "The Scientific Method", that we are more "prone to give the benefit of doubt where none is rationally justifiable"?

I say quite the opposite. This culture refuses to believe in anything, and wants proof handed to them.

...Presently, belief in Bigfoot is highly irrational and unreasonable....

I say that prejudice is highly irrational, unreasonable, and in violation of the scientific method,...........

...Bigfoot remains as the great American myth. It will probably endure as such forever....

............And that is prejudiced opinion.
 
Lot of people here seem to think that if they blather enough on a message board they can conjure up a fully formed Bigfoot out of nothing but wishful thinking and fallacious arguments.

Still no DNA, still no body, still no Bigfoot. There is no proof, only some very poor evidence.

Am I the only person willing to say that those who claim that they have Bigfoot DNA are flat out lying?

Well, here goes. You're lying. Where is it? You don't have to send it to me. I'd be happy with a published paper showing the exact proof for why the DNA is from an unknown primate, describing in detail the methodology, eliminating any but the tinest chance of contamination or misinterpretation.

<rest of blather snipped>

Bigfoot hair has been subjected to intense attempts at DNA analysis. All the extracted DNA, though ample, was too fragmented to permit mitochondrial DNA gene sequencing. Since the same problem exists for a significant percentage of human hairs, we attribute this problem to the absence of a medulla (always in sasquatch hair, often in human hair). We no longer consider hair a promising subject for further attempts at DNA sequencing, but must wait for
tissue or blood samples.

There is no absolutely identified sasquatch hair. I have 12 samples from 4 states, all collected under suggestive or excellent circumstances. They measure from 3 to 15 inches in length, are all under 90 microns in diameter, all have a reddish tinge under the microscope, and all are lacking a medulla. You can find human hair like that, but a dozen samples like that, collected
independently, are not suggestive of hoaxing.

DNA analysis is futile, since the mtDNA appears too fragmented to allow for sequencing (possibly a function of no medulla - same problem with human hair of that structure). If in doubt, send the hair to me at the address below.

Dr. W. H. Fahrenbach, 1997
Laboratory of Microscopy
Oregon Regional Primate Research Center
505 NW 185th
Beaverton, OR 97006

On the issue of sasquatch hairs, Dr. John Bindernagel writes in his book “North America’s Great Ape, the Sasquatch:”

“Hair attributed to Sasquatches has been recovered from apparent Sasquatch beds, shrubbery, fences and trees where sightings have occurred. Some samples have been examined microscopically for physical characteristics, which can be compared with known reference material from bears, apes, and humans. At least one such sample has been identified as coming from a higher primate, but could not be matched with those from any known species.”

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/biology/hair.htm

Who's claiming to have testable DNA? And just what would be the best way to collect a tissue sample (without getting killed)?

Are you a moderator? If so, lock the thread. If not, go away again and let the rest of us have our fun. Please.
 
<rest of blather snipped>

Bigfoot hair has been subjected to intense attempts at DNA analysis. All the extracted DNA, though ample, was too fragmented to permit mitochondrial DNA gene sequencing. Since the same problem exists for a significant percentage of human hairs, we attribute this problem to the absence of a medulla (always in sasquatch hair, often in human hair). We no longer consider hair a promising subject for further attempts at DNA sequencing, but must wait for
tissue or blood samples.

There is no absolutely identified sasquatch hair. I have 12 samples from 4 states, all collected under suggestive or excellent circumstances. They measure from 3 to 15 inches in length, are all under 90 microns in diameter, all have a reddish tinge under the microscope, and all are lacking a medulla. You can find human hair like that, but a dozen samples like that, collected
independently, are not suggestive of hoaxing.

DNA analysis is futile, since the mtDNA appears too fragmented to allow for sequencing (possibly a function of no medulla - same problem with human hair of that structure). If in doubt, send the hair to me at the address below.

Dr. W. H. Fahrenbach, 1997
Laboratory of Microscopy
Oregon Regional Primate Research Center
505 NW 185th
Beaverton, OR 97006

On the issue of sasquatch hairs, Dr. John Bindernagel writes in his book “North America’s Great Ape, the Sasquatch:”

“Hair attributed to Sasquatches has been recovered from apparent Sasquatch beds, shrubbery, fences and trees where sightings have occurred. Some samples have been examined microscopically for physical characteristics, which can be compared with known reference material from bears, apes, and humans. At least one such sample has been identified as coming from a higher primate, but could not be matched with those from any known species.”

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/biology/hair.htm

Who's claiming to have testable DNA? And just what would be the best way to collect a tissue sample (without getting killed)?

Are you a moderator? If so, lock the thread. If not, go away again and let the rest of us have our fun. Please.

I rest my case. You have nothing but blather.

You can't prove the existence of Bigfoot by writing about it really hard.

Show us some good DNA, or preferably a body, or quit spamming. And if you do have a body, you may feel free to rub my nose in it and forcefeed me crow for years on end. You've had what ... 15 pages and you've proven nothing other than that your evidence is extremely poor.

Message me when you have a body or some DNA. I'm waiting. In the meantime, I might monitor this thread from time to time. It's educational, as far as watching a woo pretend that he has evidence over and over again can be. Meanwhile, still no body, not even a bit of DNA. You have nothing, and I am willing to go out on a limb and say that you never will.

Your little fantasy game is just that .. a fantasy. And as most woos, you'll deny that until the day you die. But as I said, there are worse things you could do with your time.
 
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