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-   -   Continuation Trump’s Coup - Part 2 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348820)

Planigale 8th January 2021 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13353160)
Well them maybe do that before coming into the conversation next time.

Thank you. See my post above.

Meadmaker 8th January 2021 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353087)
How many people actually roamed the corridors of the capitol? My take was it was a few dozen, but I have seen no count so I may be completely misinterpreting what happened.

Here is an example of people occupying a federal building as part of a demonstration and seeking a change in the constitution of the US, sounds pretty revolutionary to me.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-54794408

One of the videos on youtube showed the woman being carried out on a stretcher. There were cries of "make a hole", and people clearing the hallways so the stretcher could be removed. The hallways were full, and it was a long series of hallways. There were hundreds inside the Capitol building.

Resume 8th January 2021 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13353134)
This is sea-lioning. There's goddamn news footage of massive crowds inside the Pentagon (stupid brainfart, Capitol) and Planigale absolutely knows it.

Indeed.

Considering all the costumes though, maybe the imps were just trick or treating. Some of them got tricked, however.

Violent insurrectionists violently stormed a govt building, and received violence in return. Who'd have ever thunk?

pgwenthold 8th January 2021 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle (Post 13353152)
She had an enormous backpack on.

They absolutely had to shoot.

And notice how fast that alcove cleared out once it wasn't a damn game anymore.

You've said something here that is very critical.

Up until then, they were all treating it like a game. Trump, the congress critters grandstanding their objections and the "protestors." It was a all a game.

For some people, especially the senators, it suddenly became real. When they are being hauled off by security to a secure location for their protection and that of the vice president, suddenly it became far more apparent about the real "threat to democracy."

When Ted Cruz was in college, he was a national champion debater. That means he can take any position and defend it, regardless of whether he believes it or not. He's a master at rhetoric. It has nothing to do with principles.

shemp 8th January 2021 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353155)
You are correct. I have a non-evidence based belief there was an alternative.

You speak an infinite deal of nothing.

Garrison 8th January 2021 01:38 PM

And now the Repulbicans have the nerve to talk about unifying the country:

Quote:

House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy called on Democrats to step away from considering impeaching President Trump for a second time.

In a lengthy statement on Friday, he said: "Our country is not just divided. We are deeply hurt... Impeaching the president with only 12 days left in his term will only divide our country more."

Democratic leaders in the House majority indicated they may move forward with impeachment as soon as Monday.

McCarthy said he had reached out to Joe Biden - who he did not acknowledge as the president-elect until this week - to discuss how to "work together to lower the temperature and unite the country to solve America's challenges".
I would suggest that if they want to show they truly care about unity then they dump the likes of Ted Cruz who continued to actively spread Trump's lies about the election being stolen after an attempted coup by Trump supporters incited by Trump himself. Healing the USA will only be possible when the Republicans stop trying to appeal to the deplorables and embrace reality.

JoeMorgue 8th January 2021 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353166)
I haven't seen a picture of her climbing through the window, so I'll accept that she was doing so with an enormous backpack on. Was the thought she had a bomb in the back pack? I do not understand otherwise the association between a back pack and her needing to be shot in the face.

"You accept that"

Who cares? It's reality. It's what happened. There's nothing for you to accept about it. Again why not go learn the most basic facts about this event before sealioning your way through a discussion about it?

This is not real. A human being is not sitting here lamb bleating about how they simply can't comprehend (not agree or disagree with but literally lack the mental framework to even comprehend) why trying to force your way into the inner sanctum of Congress with a backpack in the middle of a violent riot is something that might require a deadly response.

Distracted1 8th January 2021 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13352581)
Is there any evidence at all that she was executed?

In the well trodden vernacular of this forum it was a "summary" execution.
For trespassing.

Except, of course, to fascist apologists, who might consider the circumstance of the shooting.

Meadmaker 8th January 2021 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353102)
No, there is a line of succession. Yes, it would be a dreadful thing. I am sure that the secret service detail would not have allowed that to happen so this is a pretty hypothetical issue. But really, the POTUS is shot democracy goes on in the US. the VP is shot, pretty sure that would not end democracy in the US.

And how would the Secret Service have prevented it? They would have shot someone, or multiple people if necessary.

JoeMorgue 8th January 2021 01:40 PM

So it wasn't a coup and hissy fits for days will be pitched if anyone says it is, but it was an execution.

I repeat *Jerk off motion*

Olmstead 8th January 2021 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353136)
Thank you. I am unable to access that link as it seems to be behind a paywall. I take your point, that she was shot because others might come through. Did any others? Was there no alternative? Maybe the officer did not have a taser or pepper spray or a baton or handcuffs.

I'll stick with the killing people is wrong view. Even if there was no alternative, it is not something to celebrate. She did not deserve to be shot in the face. This was a sad event, to be regretted, even if there was no other option.

I think the time for alternatives was at different points before the very last barricade. The mob should never have gotten that far, and someone needs to be held accountable for that.

Imagine an angry mob strolling through the White House, destroying everything around them, and then one of them breaks into the Oval Office and gets shot. No one would question it.

Darat 8th January 2021 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353102)
No, there is a line of succession. Yes, it would be a dreadful thing. I am sure that the secret service detail would not have allowed that to happen so this is a pretty hypothetical issue. But really, the POTUS is shot democracy goes on in the US. the VP is shot, pretty sure that would not end democracy in the US.

I do not defend the violence. I despise the things these neo-nazis believe. But this was not an existential threat to US democracy. All this talk of hang them high is as bad as the rioters.

You mean “all” as in “none”?

acbytesla 8th January 2021 01:45 PM

Well, the guy who sat behind Pelosi's desk was arrested.


Quote:

Richard Barnett, 60, of Gravette, Arkansas, was taken into custody in his home state on federal charges of entering and remaining on restricted grounds, violent entry and theft of public property, according to a Department of Justice official.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1253490

Planigale 8th January 2021 01:46 PM

People are obviously keen to educate me. So can I ask a couple of questions?

Were any shot fired by the rioters in the capitol?

Were the pipe bombs planted in the capitol?

Do we have any figures for how many people were wandering the corridors of the capitol?

Is there a link to how the unfortunate police officer was injured / killed?

JoeMorgue 8th January 2021 01:46 PM

I'm so ******* sick of the evil people having defense run for them because the mediocre people want to spend more time tone policing the good people's language for "drama" and "hypocrisy" then worrying about the evil.

jimbob 8th January 2021 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B (Post 13353088)
Maybe, maybe not.

But one has to play out the scenario if she was the first of many to pour in through the window. Then overwhelmed the handful of armed officers and took their weapons. Then started hunting down and executing Democratic representatives and possibly even Pence if they could find him. The investigation into the massacre could then focus on why the officers chose not to use their weapons. Extending the Principle of Charity to the officer involved seems reasonable, pending investigation. To extend that Principle to a mob focused on beaching a perimeter to access lawmakers seems risky at best.

The likely and intended scenario.

JoeMorgue 8th January 2021 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353195)
People are obviously keen to educate me. So can I ask a couple of questions?

Were any shot fired by the rioters in the capitol?

Were the pipe bombs planted in the capitol?

Do we have any figures for how many people were wandering the corridors of the capitol?

Is there a link to how the unfortunate police officer was injured / killed?

Stop sea-lioning. It's pathetic.

jimbob 8th January 2021 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353195)
People are obviously keen to educate me. So can I ask a couple of questions?

Were any shot fired by the rioters in the capitol?

Were the pipe bombs planted in the capitol?

Do we have any figures for how many people were wandering the corridors of the capitol?

Is there a link to how the unfortunate police officer was injured / killed?

A fire extinguisher was thrown at his head.

We know that some of the mob had handguns at least.

What more do you want?

jimbob 8th January 2021 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13353192)
Well, the guy who sat behind Pelosi's desk was arrested.

Still don't see why it's not felony murder.

ToddH 8th January 2021 01:49 PM

FBI is rounding a lot of these folks up including WV State Representative Derrick Evans, who was just arrested. Seems like the FBI isn't playing around with these folks. I hope they get as many as they can.

Darat 8th January 2021 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resume (Post 13353172)
Indeed.

Considering all the costumes though, maybe the imps were just trick or treating. Some of them got tricked, however.

Violent insurrectionists violently stormed a govt building, and received violence in return. Who'd have ever thunk?

Sadly as someone mentioned before this is a prime example of “privilege” in the real world. They are so used to doing whatever they want without personal consequence they have come to believe what they do - whatever it is - is the right thing to do.

Distracted1 8th January 2021 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13353196)
I'm so ******* sick of the evil people having defense run for them because the mediocre people want to spend more time tone policing the good people's language for "drama" and "hypocrisy" then worrying about the evil.

What bothers me more are those who are certain that they know the difference.

Resume 8th January 2021 01:53 PM

This woman gambled that law enforcement wouldn't defend and protect the legislative body as they are sworn to do.

She was wrong.

Darat 8th January 2021 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 13353173)
You've said something here that is very critical.

Up until then, they were all treating it like a game. Trump, the congress critters grandstanding their objections and the "protestors." It was a all a game.

For some people, especially the senators, it suddenly became real. When they are being hauled off by security to a secure location for their protection and that of the vice president, suddenly it became far more apparent about the real "threat to democracy."

When Ted Cruz was in college, he was a national champion debater. That means he can take any position and defend it, regardless of whether he believes it or not. He's a master at rhetoric. It has nothing to do with principles.

Look at all those MAGA Civil War 1-6-21 sweatshirts, they are what fans of Marvel films would wear to a premier of the latest Marvel movie. It is like I say above what privilege is all about.

Resume 8th January 2021 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13353209)
Sadly as someone mentioned before this is a prime example of “privilege” in the real world. They are so used to doing whatever they want without personal consequence they have come to believe what they do - whatever it is - is the right thing to do.

Some of the privileged learned they weren't all that privileged.

ETA: Still, I don't think there were any lessons learned.

ETA II: Just look at that Elizabeth from Tennessee, who was shocked and dismayed at being maced for, in her own words, storming the Capitol in a revolution.

I actively dislike these people snowflakes.

Babbylonian 8th January 2021 01:55 PM

The idiot who was shot to death should have been a statistic, a single name lost within the dozens of other names of terrorists killed during their attack on our government.

Planigale 8th January 2021 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13353176)
"You accept that"

Who cares? It's reality. It's what happened. There's nothing for you to accept about it. Again why not go learn the most basic facts about this event before sealioning your way through a discussion about it?

This is not real. A human being is not sitting here lamb bleating about how they simply can't comprehend (not agree or disagree with but literally lack the mental framework to even comprehend) why trying to force your way into the inner sanctum of Congress with a backpack in the middle of a violent riot is something that might require a deadly response.

What is sealioning?

Might is the operative word. Still miss the significance of the backpack. I may be ignorant or naive or stupid but you could still explain the facts as you see them.

Inner sanctum is an interesting term. It is just a room. A room with people in. People who are the same as any other people. Actually the same as the person trying to climb in. Fundamentally her life is as valuable as any senator or congressman. In general killing people to suppress a riot is not regarded as good policing.

Darat 8th January 2021 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13353179)
In the well trodden vernacular of this forum it was a "summary" execution.
For trespassing.

Except, of course, to fascist apologists, who might consider the circumstance of the shooting.

You are simply lying

JoeMorgue 8th January 2021 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353219)
What is sealioning?

Oh... oh that's perfect. Bravo. *Chef's kiss*

Meadmaker 8th January 2021 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353195)
People are obviously keen to educate me. So can I ask a couple of questions?

Were any shot fired by the rioters in the capitol?

None have been reported.


Quote:

Were the pipe bombs planted in the capitol?
Not that I am aware of. There were pipe bombs discovered at other government buildings. Some were reported before the storming of the Capitol, so the police would probably have been aware that explosives had been planted elsewhere.


Quote:

Do we have any figures for how many people were wandering the corridors of the capitol?
None have been released. Videos show hundreds of people in the rotunda and in corridors. There were enough that one woman was trampled to death in the crush of people.

Quote:

Is there a link to how the unfortunate police officer was injured / killed?
No official cause has been released from any official source, but a New York Times headline said he was hit with a fire extinguisher during a violent altercation with protestors.

Darat 8th January 2021 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353195)
People are obviously keen to educate me. So can I ask a couple of questions?

Were any shot fired by the rioters in the capitol?

Were the pipe bombs planted in the capitol?

Do we have any figures for how many people were wandering the corridors of the capitol?

Is there a link to how the unfortunate police officer was injured / killed?

Good place to start.

Planigale 8th January 2021 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resume (Post 13353211)
This woman gambled that law enforcement wouldn't defend and protect the legislative body as they are sworn to do.

She was wrong.

I would hope they are sworn to uphold the law, and protect all people regardless of race, sex, religion or job.

JoeMorgue 8th January 2021 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13353224)
Good place to start.

*Golf clap*

Dr. Keith 8th January 2021 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353195)
Were the pipe bombs planted in the capitol?

I've got good money on "Molotov Cocktails are not bombs" so you people better not get lazy on the pedantry I've come to expect from your lot.

Planigale 8th January 2021 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13353224)
Good place to start.

Tried there. No bombs in capitol, no info on shots fired, numbers not known, no information on mechanism of injury. But thank you for your informative post.

acbytesla 8th January 2021 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 13353203)
Still don't see why it's not felony murder.

It might be. But this I think might be an impractical application of that law. You want hundreds of people to face felony murder charges? Where then does the application of that law stop?

Silly Green Monkey 8th January 2021 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353225)
I would hope they are sworn to uphold the law, and protect all people regardless of race, sex, religion or job.

They were, that's why they shot the lawbreaker threatening the people they were sworn to protect.

Planigale 8th January 2021 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 13353231)
I've got good money on "Molotov Cocktails are not bombs" so you people better not get lazy on the pedantry I've come to expect from your lot.

I would accept Molotov cocktails as bombs. Were there Molotov cocktails thrown in the capitol? (I'd better go and google that before darat sends me another helpful link.)

ETA
No Molotov cocktails thrown in or at the capitol?

gnome 8th January 2021 02:04 PM

An execution is an act of punishment. The shooting discussed was an act of defense. One might argue deadly force to defend was not necessary--I don't agree, but even if somehow that were true, it would still not be an execution.

"I shot that person and didn't need to" is not the same as "They have committed a crime and I am now punishing them for it with my gun."

The intent was to stop the person, not administer justice.

Babbylonian 8th January 2021 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353225)
I would hope they are sworn to uphold the law, and protect all people regardless of race, sex, religion or job.

Yes, they were protecting all such people behind them against a violent mob. Would you suggest they just stand aside, maybe hand out visitor badges to the mob trying to reach the legislators and their staffs?

"Come on through, ma'am. You'll find most of Congress down the hall on the right. If you turn left, Vice President Pence will be behind the third door on the right. Be careful of the Secret Service agents! Have a nice day!"


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