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-   -   Continuation Trump’s Coup - Part 2 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348820)

Planigale 8th January 2021 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13353054)
No one should be "executed" but that isn't what happened. An armed mob mounted an insurrection on the Capitol while our political leaders were conducting the transition of power. And a police officer defending that process shot a member of that mob.

What do you think they should do? Open the doors and end democracy?

I'm a peaceful guy, but there is always a point when you have to stand up.

Democracy would not have ended if they had opened the doors. Not even US democracy. It would have had no effect on the democratic institutions of the constituent states. It would have had transient impact on the functioning at federal level. If US democracy is really so frail then it needs a radical overhaul.

dirtywick 8th January 2021 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353070)
I suppose this all depends on definitions. Merriam-Webster 'a putting to death especially as a legal penalty'. She was deliberately put to death. If she was climbing through the window she was of no immediate threat to anybody. Was she armed? I don't know, does anyone here? I still rest with the issue that non-lethal force was available. The potential of what someone else might do is not justification for killing another person. Killing her to discourage others is not a justification for homicide. I would be happy to substitute 'homicide', 'murder', 'kill'.

I do recognise that many of these people were armed. I think the second amendment is stupid and this is a direct consequence of the second amendment, indeed one can say this was the justification for the second amendment. But a key thing (one that one can hear in every dubious shooting of a black man by a LEO) "once you draw your weapon like that, you have to defend yourself with deadly force." No, a police officer drawing a weapon does not mean that by merely drawing his weapon he is justified in using it.

I think posters here do not know what terrorism is. Terrorists would have roamed the corridors shooting everyone they saw, terrorists do not target. This was not terrorism. They were not a radical political group who took hostages and entered into negotiations, they were not political activists who occupied the capitol with a lock in. I have heard no report that a single shot was fired by these rioters*. (I may be wrong and if so I anticipate a stream of corrections.) They stole a podium.

you quoted the dictionary definition to try and shoehorn "execution" into the conversation, but then define terrorism as whatever you say it is

alfaniner 8th January 2021 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B (Post 13353073)
“But this was a few protesters who broke into a public building.”

That can’t be serious, right?

That's almost exactly what Fox's Tucker Carlson said. CNN just had a segment showing where he refused to call them "insurrectionists".

Darat 8th January 2021 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353081)
Democracy would not have ended if they had opened the doors. Not even US democracy. It would have had no effect on the democratic institutions of the constituent states. It would have had transient impact on the functioning at federal level. If US democracy is really so frail then it needs a radical overhaul.

The killing of the likes of Pence would have had no effect? :jaw-dropp

Planigale 8th January 2021 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B (Post 13353073)
“But this was a few protesters who broke into a public building.”

That can’t be serious, right?

How many people actually roamed the corridors of the capitol? My take was it was a few dozen, but I have seen no count so I may be completely misinterpreting what happened.

Here is an example of people occupying a federal building as part of a demonstration and seeking a change in the constitution of the US, sounds pretty revolutionary to me.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-54794408

Fast Eddie B 8th January 2021 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353070)
...but I still thinking shooting her in the face when she was climbing in through a window was unnecessary. I know 'stand your ground' is a US thing, but I do not think this is a reason for killing someone.

Maybe, maybe not.

But one has to play out the scenario if she was the first of many to pour in through the window. Then overwhelmed the handful of armed officers and took their weapons. Then started hunting down and executing Democratic representatives and possibly even Pence if they could find him. The investigation into the massacre could then focus on why the officers chose not to use their weapons. Extending the Principle of Charity to the officer involved seems reasonable, pending investigation. To extend that Principle to a mob focused on beaching a perimeter to access lawmakers seems risky at best.

Venom 8th January 2021 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353081)
Democracy would not have ended if they had opened the doors. Not even US democracy. It would have had no effect on the democratic institutions of the constituent states. It would have had transient impact on the functioning at federal level. If US democracy is really so frail then it needs a radical overhaul.

That's great and all.

Realistically, the officer's action was justifiable in that setting. We don't need an armed mob storming in; we don't know what they'd do.

llwyd 8th January 2021 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353081)
Democracy would not have ended if they had opened the doors. Not even US democracy. It would have had no effect on the democratic institutions of the constituent states. It would have had transient impact on the functioning at federal level. If US democracy is really so frail then it needs a radical overhaul.

Actually, no. Democracy and liberty have been dearly bought and they should be vehemently defended in all liberal democracies. Symbols are very important and events can snowball out of all control. Swift and strong action is very necessary to defend these sacred places of democracy - especially when there was actually vital business being conducted and people's representatives in very real danger for their safety. This was no ordinary riot but a sinister attack at the very foundations of the Republic.

JoeMorgue 8th January 2021 01:07 PM

Jesus ******* Christ are people still flooding this thread "What's the big deal?" arguments.

What the **** do you think should happen when you try to storm into Congress? They call your mother? Ask you nicely to know that off?

acbytesla 8th January 2021 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353070)
I suppose this all depends on definitions. Merriam-Webster 'a putting to death especially as a legal penalty'. She was deliberately put to death. If she was climbing through the window she was of no immediate threat to anybody. Was she armed? I don't know, does anyone here? I still rest with the issue that non-lethal force was available. The potential of what someone else might do is not justification for killing another person. Killing her to discourage others is not a justification for homicide. I would be happy to substitute 'homicide', 'murder', 'kill'.

I do recognise that many of these people were armed. I think the second amendment is stupid and this is a direct consequence of the second amendment, indeed one can say this was the justification for the second amendment. But a key thing (one that one can hear in every dubious shooting of a black man by a LEO) "once you draw your weapon like that, you have to defend yourself with deadly force." No, a police officer drawing a weapon does not mean that by merely drawing his weapon he is justified in using it.

I think posters here do not know what terrorism is. Terrorists would have roamed the corridors shooting everyone they saw, terrorists do not target. This was not terrorism. They were not a radical political group who took hostages and entered into negotiations, they were not political activists who occupied the capitol with a lock in. I have heard no report that a single shot was fired by these rioters*. (I may be wrong and if so I anticipate a stream of corrections.) They stole a podium.

If police officers (or anyone else) were assaulted then the individuals concerned should be prosecuted. I do not defend attacking a police officer with an extinguisher (I have not seen a report of this, but I am sure that the poster who said this knows this as a fact, and I accept this). But this does not justify killing other people.

These maybe horrible neo-nazi scum but they need their rights defended in the same way as every other human.

I think it is deeply sad the police officer died, however it happened. I think it is sad that others died who perhaps might not have had there not been a riot. I am not sad a weirdo right wing Trumpist woman died, but I still thinking shooting her in the face when she was climbing in through a window was unnecessary. I know 'stand your ground' is a US thing, but I do not think this is a reason for killing someone.

ETA
* Within the capitol

You really have gone into your head. I don't mean that disparagingly. Deliberately put to death? Or maybe stopped in her tracks. You have no idea that this was "deliberate" or a reaction to a wave of people that could be a danger to members of Congress, their staff, other officers or to democracy itself.

60 police officers were injured on the 6th. One died because he was hit with a fire extinguisher.

dirtywick 8th January 2021 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353087)
How many people actually roamed the corridors of the capitol? My take was it was a few dozen, but I have seen no count so I may be completely misinterpreting what happened.

Here is an example of people occupying a federal building as part of a demonstration and seeking a change in the constitution of the US, sounds pretty revolutionary to me.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-54794408

did they plant any pipe bombs at the sit in?

llwyd 8th January 2021 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13353092)
Jesus ******* Christ are people still flooding this thread "What's the big deal?" arguments.

Yeah, a violent mob invades the Congress while all the democratically elected representatives are in session. No biggie, almost a daily occurance. I mean what about 1812, much worse that.

Planigale 8th January 2021 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13353085)
The killing of the likes of Pence would have had no effect? :jaw-dropp

No, there is a line of succession. Yes, it would be a dreadful thing. I am sure that the secret service detail would not have allowed that to happen so this is a pretty hypothetical issue. But really, the POTUS is shot democracy goes on in the US. the VP is shot, pretty sure that would not end democracy in the US.

I do not defend the violence. I despise the things these neo-nazis believe. But this was not an existential threat to US democracy. All this talk of hang them high is as bad as the rioters.

Olmstead 8th January 2021 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353070)
I suppose this all depends on definitions. Merriam-Webster 'a putting to death especially as a legal penalty'. She was deliberately put to death. If she was climbing through the window she was of no immediate threat to anybody. Was she armed? I don't know, does anyone here? I still rest with the issue that non-lethal force was available. The potential of what someone else might do is not justification for killing another person. Killing her to discourage others is not a justification for homicide. I would be happy to substitute 'homicide', 'murder', 'kill'.
[...]

A newer video from the other thread for some context:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...video-capitol/

The barricaded door was the last barrier between the mob and congressmen. The mob was determined to get inside, and once one person got through, everyone else would have felt confident of getting through themselves.

The police around the mob seemed completely overwhelmed and incapable of stopping them in any way. Even after cops with riot gear arrived, the mob continued to attack the barricade unopposed. No one went to stop the woman from entering a space where congressmen were still in the process of being evacuated.

dirtywick 8th January 2021 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353102)
No, there is a line of succession. Yes, it would be a dreadful thing. I am sure that the secret service detail would not have allowed that to happen so this is a pretty hypothetical issue. But really, the POTUS is shot democracy goes on in the US. the VP is shot, pretty sure that would not end democracy in the US.

I do not defend the violence. I despise the things these neo-nazis believe. But this was not an existential threat to US democracy. All this talk of hang them high is as bad as the rioters.

yeah, maybe the secret service would have shot someone

Planigale 8th January 2021 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13353095)
did they plant any pipe bombs at the sit in?

Were any pipe bombs placed in the capitol building?

dirtywick 8th January 2021 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353113)
Were any pipe bombs placed in the capitol building?

yes they're looking for the suspect

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-...ry?id=75126041

acbytesla 8th January 2021 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353081)
Democracy would not have ended if they had opened the doors. Not even US democracy. It would have had no effect on the democratic institutions of the constituent states. It would have had transient impact on the functioning at federal level. If US democracy is really so frail then it needs a radical overhaul.

You don't know that. This was an armed mob. Who's to say they wouldn't have mowed down legislators if they got to them? Sure, in hindsight, it would have been better if she wasn't killed but the person to blame for this is not the officer.

JoeMorgue 8th January 2021 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13353118)
yes they're looking for the suspect

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-...ry?id=75126041

Haha pipe bombs. Those rambunctious scamps! Nothing to worry about though, just some kids having fun like TPing a tree on Halloween.

crescent 8th January 2021 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353087)
How many people actually roamed the corridors of the capitol? My take was it was a few dozen, but I have seen no count so I may be completely misinterpreting what happened.

Hundreds got in. Reporters already in the building to cover the EC vote mentioned coming out into the hallways and seeing literal hundreds of people in there, maybe a thousand or more.

timhau 8th January 2021 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crescent (Post 13353125)
Hundreds got in. Reporters already in the building to cover the EC vote mentioned coming out into the hallways and seeing literal hundreds of people in there, maybe a thousand or more.

I bet they were just shoved in as they looked for a bathroom.

acbytesla 8th January 2021 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crescent (Post 13353125)
Hundreds got in. Reporters already in the building to cover the EC vote mentioned coming out into the hallways and seeing literal hundreds of people in there, maybe a thousand or more.

I doubt there were thousands, but hundreds for sure.

JoeMorgue 8th January 2021 01:19 PM

This is sea-lioning. There's goddamn news footage of massive crowds inside the Pentagon (stupid brainfart, Capitol) and Planigale absolutely knows it.

Planigale 8th January 2021 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmstead (Post 13353108)
A newer video from the other thread for some context:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...video-capitol/

The barricaded door was the last barrier between the mob and congressmen. The mob was determined to get inside, and once one person got through, everyone else would have felt confident of getting through themselves.

The police around the mob seemed completely overwhelmed and incapable of stopping them in any way. Even after cops with riot gear arrived, the mob continued to attack the barricade unopposed. No one went to stop the woman from entering a space where congressmen were still in the process of being evacuated.

Thank you. I am unable to access that link as it seems to be behind a paywall. I take your point, that she was shot because others might come through. Did any others? Was there no alternative? Maybe the officer did not have a taser or pepper spray or a baton or handcuffs.

I'll stick with the killing people is wrong view. Even if there was no alternative, it is not something to celebrate. She did not deserve to be shot in the face. This was a sad event, to be regretted, even if there was no other option.

acbytesla 8th January 2021 01:21 PM

DELETE

JoeMorgue 8th January 2021 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13353137)
Pentagon?

Sorry Capitol.

Meadmaker 8th January 2021 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353070)
I suppose this all depends on definitions. Merriam-Webster 'a putting to death especially as a legal penalty'. She was deliberately put to death. If she was climbing through the window she was of no immediate threat to anybody. Was she armed? I don't know, does anyone here? I still rest with the issue that non-lethal force was available. The potential of what someone else might do is not justification for killing another person. Killing her to discourage others is not a justification for homicide. I would be happy to substitute 'homicide', 'murder', 'kill'.

I don't know how you can watch that video and reach that conclusion.

She was at the head of a mob that was a few feet away from the legislative branch of the US government. I don't mean the place. I mean the people that make up the US government. Did you see the widely circulated photos of police/guards with their guns drawn, behind a furniture barricade on the floor of the House of Representatives while the mob was breaking the windows in the door? You can bet that if any of the mob had actually started crawling through those windows, they would have been, and should have been, shot.

Well, Ashli Babbit was on the other side of that same room. That was the window she was crawling through, and there were literally hundreds behind her. I don't know exactly how many US Representatives were in the room at the time, but the mob was coming for them, and that door she was crawling through was the last chance to stop them, and there were only a handful of armed officers standing between that mob and the US Congress.

Could it have been done differently? I don't see how. I believe there should be an inquiry into the subject and I am sure that that question will be asked, but it's really missing the point to say she was "climbing through a window", as if somehow vandalism or trespassing was the issue. The members of the US House of Representatives were being held inside the House chamber to protect them from a violent mob which outnumbered them and their guards by at least 10 to 1. Sure they could subdue her, but they couldn't subdue all the ones who were going to follow her through that window.

acbytesla 8th January 2021 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353136)
Thank you. I am unable to access that link as it seems to be behind a paywall. I take your point, that she was shot because others might come through. Did any others? Was there no alternative? Maybe the officer did not have a taser or pepper spray or a baton or handcuffs.

I'll stick with the killing people is wrong view. Even if there was no alternative, it is not something to celebrate. She did not deserve to be shot in the face. This was a sad event, to be regretted, even if there was no other option.

It's not something to celebrate. To that I agree. But you can't say it is wrong if there was no alternative.

Armitage72 8th January 2021 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353102)
No, there is a line of succession. Yes, it would be a dreadful thing. I am sure that the secret service detail would not have allowed that to happen so this is a pretty hypothetical issue. But really, the POTUS is shot democracy goes on in the US. the VP is shot, pretty sure that would not end democracy in the US.


Except that, in this case, it would have been the VP getting killed by Trump's angry supporters after Trump condemned his betrayal for refusing to illegally appoint him leader. The context makes it a little more serious, with a political leader encouraging a mob to threaten other politicians who don't give him the power he thinks he deserves.

EDIT: Yes, there were members of the mob stalking through the Capitol shouting "Where's Pence?!?"

eerok 8th January 2021 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13353145)
It's not something to celebrate. To that I agree. But you can't say it is wrong if there was no alternative.

It was unfortunate, even tragic, but not wrong.

Planigale 8th January 2021 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13353134)
This is sea-lioning. There's goddamn news footage of massive crowds inside the Pentagon and Planigale absolutely knows it.

No, I don't. Now I do. I have seen a few stills and no videos. Sometimes the facts prove that one is wrong. The initial pictures I saw looked like only a few people. I have watched no news broadcast in the last 48 hours. I have seen some pics in papers and some from last night on the BBC website. My download speeds mean I avoid streaming. You would be justified in saying that I am foolish to express an opinion if I am ignorant of the facts. You could be helpful and inform me of the facts. But you would be wrong to assume because you know something I know something. You would be utterly wrong and in breach of the forum rules (or potentially the winner of a $1,000,000 prize) to claim to know what I know.

Meadmaker 8th January 2021 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353136)
Even if there was no alternative, it is not something to celebrate. She did not deserve to be shot in the face. This was a sad event, to be regretted, even if there was no other option.

On that point, I agree.

Delphic Oracle 8th January 2021 01:29 PM

She had an enormous backpack on.

They absolutely had to shoot.

And notice how fast that alcove cleared out once it wasn't a damn game anymore.

Planigale 8th January 2021 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13353145)
It's not something to celebrate. To that I agree. But you can't say it is wrong if there was no alternative.

You are correct. I have a non-evidence based belief there was an alternative.

dirtywick 8th January 2021 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353150)
No, I don't. Now I do. I have seen a few stills and no videos. Sometimes the facts prove that one is wrong. The initial pictures I saw looked like only a few people. I have watched no news broadcast in the last 48 hours. I have seen some pics in papers and some from last night on the BBC website. My download speeds mean I avoid streaming. You would be justified in saying that I am foolish to express an opinion if I am ignorant of the facts. You could be helpful and inform me of the facts. But you would be wrong to assume because you know something I know something. You would be utterly wrong and in breach of the forum rules (or potentially the winner of a $1,000,000 prize) to claim to know what I know.

if that's the case, more question marks, less periods

pgwenthold 8th January 2021 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timhau (Post 13353131)
I bet they were just shoved in as they looked for a bathroom.

I can state from experience that it can be hard to find a bathroom in the halls of the Capitol.

JoeMorgue 8th January 2021 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353150)
No, I don't. Now I do.

Well them maybe do that before coming into the conversation next time.

Planigale 8th January 2021 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle (Post 13353152)
She had an enormous backpack on.

They absolutely had to shoot.

And notice how fast that alcove cleared out once it wasn't a damn game anymore.

I haven't seen a picture of her climbing through the window, so I'll accept that she was doing so with an enormous backpack on. Was the thought she had a bomb in the back pack? I do not understand otherwise the association between a back pack and her needing to be shot in the face.

Planigale 8th January 2021 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13353156)
if that's the case, more question marks, less periods

Thank you, this is a fair comment. I'll seek to be better educated before expressing an opinion in future.

jimbob 8th January 2021 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353081)
Democracy would not have ended if they had opened the doors. Not even US democracy. It would have had no effect on the democratic institutions of the constituent states. It would have had transient impact on the functioning at federal level. If US democracy is really so frail then it needs a radical overhaul.



This guy probably just had a nerf gun on his hip, and the zipties were just for a bit of light kidnapping.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1&d=1610132096

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13353155)
You are correct. I have a non-evidence based belief there was an alternative.

You're being silly. This was a violent mob that has now killed a policeman, and you're thinking that trying to storm a room with potential hostages was peaceful?




Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B (Post 13353088)
Maybe, maybe not.

But one has to play out the scenario if she was the first of many to pour in through the window. Then overwhelmed the handful of armed officers and took their weapons. Then started hunting down and executing Democratic representatives and possibly even Pence if they could find him. The investigation into the massacre could then focus on why the officers chose not to use their weapons. Extending the Principle of Charity to the officer involved seems reasonable, pending investigation. To extend that Principle to a mob focused on beaching a perimeter to access lawmakers seems risky at best.

Exactly.


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