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-   -   Continuation Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341507)

TragicMonkey 24th May 2020 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newyorkguy (Post 13100378)
Those are sociopathic traits as well. Found this on Google:


Remind you of anyone? :(

I'm blushing! but this thread isn't about me, it's about Trump.

Bob001 26th May 2020 08:09 AM

Interesting profile of Trump's observed behavior by a non-psychiatrist:
Quote:

Why do working-class white men—the most reliable component of Donald Trump’s base—support someone who is, by their own standards, the least masculine man ever to hold the modern presidency? The question is not whether Trump fails to meet some archaic or idealized version of masculinity. The president’s inability to measure up to Marcus Aurelius or Omar Bradley is not the issue. Rather, the question is why so many of Trump’s working-class white male voters refuse to hold Trump to their own standards of masculinity—why they support a man who behaves more like a little boy.

i am a son of the working class, and I know these cultural standards. The men I grew up with think of themselves as pretty tough guys, and most of them are. They are not the products of elite universities and cosmopolitan living. These are men whose fathers and grandfathers came from a culture that looks down upon lying, cheating, and bragging, especially about sex or courage. (My father’s best friend got the Silver Star for wiping out a German machine-gun nest in Europe, and I never heard a word about it until after the man’s funeral.) They admire and value the understated swagger, the rock-solid confidence, and the quiet reserve of such cultural heroes as John Wayne’s Green Beret Colonel Mike Kirby and Sylvester Stallone’s John Rambo (also, as it turns out, a former Green Beret.)
......
Not every working-class male voted for Trump, and not all of them have these traits, of course. And I do not present these beliefs and attitudes as uniformly virtuous in themselves. Some of these traditional masculine virtues have a dark side: Toughness and dominance become bullying and abuse; self-reliance becomes isolation; silence becomes internalized rage. Rather, I am noting that courage, honesty, respect, an economy of words, a bit of modesty, and a willingness to take responsibility are all virtues prized by the self-identified class of hard-working men, the stand-up guys, among whom I was raised.

And yet, many of these same men expect none of those characteristics from Trump, who is a vain, cowardly, lying, vulgar, jabbering blowhard. Put another way, as a question I have asked many of the men I know: Is Trump a man your father and grandfather would have respected?
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...sident/612031/

xjx388 26th May 2020 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13102147)
Interesting profile of Trump's observed behavior by a non-psychiatrist:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...sident/612031/

#youaintarealman if you vote for Trump? Interesting take . . .

The Great Zaganza 26th May 2020 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13102172)
#youaintarealman if you vote for Trump? Interesting take . . .

no question for many of his supporters Trump is Viagra.

Resume 26th May 2020 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13102172)
#youaintarealman if you vote for Trump? Interesting take . . .

I don't know, but this is sure true.

Quote:

. . . And yet, many of these same men expect none of those characteristics from Trump, who is a vain, cowardly, lying, vulgar, jabbering blowhard.
Cowardly certainly sticks out as definitive.

Roger Ramjets 26th May 2020 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13102147)
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...sident/612031/
Quote:

And yet, many of these same men expect none of those characteristics from Trump, who is a vain, cowardly, lying, vulgar, jabbering blowhard.

You go with the bullying, abuse, isolation and internalized rage you have, not what you wish you had.

Stacyhs 26th May 2020 06:14 PM

That the President is a bona fide conspiracy theorist is more than a bit disturbing.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...dbf0f2b2cc.jpg

dann 27th May 2020 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resume (Post 13102231)
Cowardly certainly sticks out as definitive.


Yes, but it's a very weird kind of cowardice where vanity always seems to win out: He is a germaphobe, and yet he refuses to wear a mask (or rather: refuses to be seen wearing a mask) because he fears that people will then see him as the coward that he actually is - and not as a leader setting a good example by exhibiting responsible behaviour.

So what he fears more than germs is that people would think of him as somebody who is afraid of germs. He finds himself in a time and place where fearing germs has actually become a rational state of mind. Nobody (except for a few manosphere Nazis) would blame him for wearing a mask in this situation, and yet he refuses to do so (i.e. to be seen doing so).

Trebuchet 27th May 2020 09:10 AM

A mask would mess up his hair and makeup. But I bet he makes his hairdresser and makeup artist wear one.

Bob001 27th May 2020 12:08 PM

At some point we may need to consider extreme willful ignorance a form of psychiatric disability:
Quote:

President Donald Trump mused about taking insulin during a White House event for seniors with diabetes, even though he does not have the disease.

The president on Tuesday unveiled a White House plan that would slash the price of insulin for Medicare recipients and wondered if he should try to the hormone himself.

"I don't use insulin," Trump said. "Should I be? Huh? I never thought about it, but I know a lot of people are very badly affected, right? Unbelievable."
https://www.salon.com/2020/05/27/tru...rgeon-general/

Stacyhs 27th May 2020 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13103842)
At some point we may need to consider extreme willful ignorance a form of psychiatric disability:


Quote:

"I don't use insulin," Trump said. "Should I be? Huh? I never thought about it, but I know a lot of people are very badly affected, right? Unbelievable."
https://www.salon.com/2020/05/27/tru...rgeon-general/

Perhaps he can get the WH doctor to prescribe it for him. After all, what can injecting insulin do to him as a non-diabetic? I mean, there are worse things than a sudden drop in blood sugar causing coma and even death. Like being seen in a mask.

dann 27th May 2020 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13103842)
At some point we may need to consider extreme willful ignorance a form of psychiatric disability:

https://www.salon.com/2020/05/27/tru...rgeon-general/


If you hadn't provided the link, I would have guessed The Onion.
However, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that he had diabetes type 2 or at least was pre-diabatic.

carrps 28th May 2020 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 13103869)
If you hadn't provided the link, I would have guessed The Onion.
However, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that he had diabetes type 2 or at least was pre-diabatic.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Maybe a doctor has mentioned the possibility to him that he's pre-diabetic???

3point14 28th May 2020 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13103867)
Perhaps he can get the WH doctor to prescribe it for him. After all, what can injecting insulin do to him as a non-diabetic? I mean, there are worse things than a sudden drop in blood sugar causing coma and even death. Like being seen in a mask.

"You should try it, Mister President. Although you might not be allowed..."

Stacyhs 28th May 2020 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrps (Post 13105359)
Yeah, that's what I thought. Maybe a doctor has mentioned the possibility to him that he's pre-diabetic???

Pre-diabetics are never prescribed insulin. And many with full on diabetes 2 never take it either unless their blood glucose gets to a certain point There are non-insulin medications that can control it well along with diet, weight control, and exercise.

But I would not be surprised if Trump is pre-diabetic or verging on it.

Stacyhs 28th May 2020 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 13105365)
"You should try it, Mister President. Although you might not be allowed..."

Tell him he can't do something and he'll do it to prove him wrong. Good tactic!:thumbsup:

Bob001 29th May 2020 06:22 AM

Surely Trump's latest tweets threatening to shoot protestors have to contribute to an assessment of his psychiatric fitness.

TragicMonkey 29th May 2020 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13106188)
Surely Trump's latest tweets threatening to shoot protestors have to contribute to an assessment of his psychiatric fitness.

I'd say his hissyfit over Twitter daring to criticize his tweet is more revealing. He's now attempting to exert government authority over a private company to censor criticism of himself. That's straight Soviet. It's an entirely mad response from an American president.

Bob001 31st May 2020 10:03 AM

Another assessment of Trump's fitness by someone who knows him better than any shrink could:
Quote:

The trait that most distinguishes psychopaths is the utter absence of conscience — the capacity to lie, cheat, steal, and inflict pain to achieve their ends without a scintilla of guilt or shame, as Trump so demonstrably does. What Trump’s words and behavior make clear is that he feels no more guilt about hurting others than a lion does about killing a giraffe.
https://gen.medium.com/the-psychopat...f-aa10ab2165d9

And another by a shrink:
Quote:

Thesis: The 45th President of the United States has a disorder that conveys danger to all those in his orbit. It is an affliction for which — once you learn of its essential characteristics — you would take a bullet to prevent your child from having. There is no cure for this disorder. Nor do there appear to be any effective measures to curb it. The best we might do is diagnose the disorder and warn others.

The purpose of this essay is twofold: to validate the above thesis and then to explain why this article will be ignored.
https://medium.com/@vgwcct/a-duty-to...t-371354142a02

Stacyhs 31st May 2020 10:50 PM

I agree with every word in the above two articles. I truly believe that Trump is a narcissistic psychopath who cares only about himself.

dann 1st June 2020 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13109283)
I agree with every word in the above two articles. I truly believe that Trump is a narcissistic psychopath who cares only about himself.


If you had read, understood, remembered and agreed with every word in the second, very long article, you would leave out narcissistic and call him a psychopath.

It's an interesting article, but so long (estimated 70 min.) that it will be tl;dr for most readers. The first half of the article is an introduction to the history of diagnostics in the field of psychology, psychiatry (with an aside to brain anatomy), so if you are convinced that you are familiar with this and know all about famous cases like Phineas Gage (who at one point becomes Phineas George, due to a word-processing error, I assume), you can skip the beginning and go to chapter 13 where the discussion of the Goldwater rule begins and soon after the diagnosing of Trump.

The author's use of the diagnostic system to identify psychopaths is very convincing. However, I disagree with him when he thinks that Trump doesn't have a parasitic lifestyle. The problem is that a parasitic lifestyle looks very different when you belong to the 0.1%. You are a different kind of parasite than, say, Kato Kaelin, but that doesn't make you less parasitic.

Republicans may appreciate the excuse that the author offers for believing in Trump. I imagine that xjx388 in particular will be pleased to see that a very human trait appears to be responsible for this deficit.

A Duty To Differentially Diagnose: The Validity Underpinning The Diagnosis Of The President (Medium)

Skeptic Ginger 7th June 2020 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 13109408)
If you had read, understood, remembered and agreed with every word in the second, very long article, you would leave out narcissistic and call him a psychopath.

It's an interesting article, but so long (estimated 70 min.) that it will be tl;dr for most readers. The first half of the article is an introduction to the history of diagnostics in the field of psychology, psychiatry (with an aside to brain anatomy), so if you are convinced that you are familiar with this and know all about famous cases like Phineas Gage (who at one point becomes Phineas George, due to a word-processing error, I assume), you can skip the beginning and go to chapter 13 where the discussion of the Goldwater rule begins and soon after the diagnosing of Trump.

The author's use of the diagnostic system to identify psychopaths is very convincing. However, I disagree with him when he thinks that Trump doesn't have a parasitic lifestyle. The problem is that a parasitic lifestyle looks very different when you belong to the 0.1%. You are a different kind of parasite than, say, Kato Kaelin, but that doesn't make you less parasitic.

Republicans may appreciate the excuse that the author offers for believing in Trump. I imagine that xjx388 in particular will be pleased to see that a very human trait appears to be responsible for this deficit.

A Duty To Differentially Diagnose: The Validity Underpinning The Diagnosis Of The President (Medium)

The highlighted are not mutually exclusive.

I think sociopath is more precise than psychopath, however.

xjx388 7th June 2020 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13117561)
The highlighted are not mutually exclusive.

I think sociopath is more precise than psychopath, however.


We’ve now heard the gamut of things Trump could be, from malignant narcissist to NPD to APD to psycho/sociopath. This doesn’t seem very precise and any predictive value we get from those terms is overshadowed by the simple, unprofessional terms, “incompetent,” “ignorant,” and “just plain stupid.”

Tell me again why it’s so important we assign professional labels...

dann 8th June 2020 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13117561)
The highlighted are not mutually exclusive.

I think sociopath is more precise than psychopath, however.


You should take a look at his argument for the term psychopath rather than narcissist or sociopath. I found it convincing.

dann 8th June 2020 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13117572)
We’ve now heard the gamut of things Trump could be, from malignant narcissist to NPD to APD to psycho/sociopath. This doesn’t seem very precise and any predictive value we get from those terms is overshadowed by the simple, unprofessional terms, “incompetent,” “ignorant,” and “just plain stupid.”

Tell me again why it’s so important we assign professional labels...


Somebody who hides in his bunker, concocting fantasies of evil antifas threatening all decent Americans and assembling a brand-new corps for his own personal protection and to clear peaceful protesters out of the way for his photo ops isn't described properly, precisely or predictively with the words “incompetent,” “ignorant,” and “just plain stupid.”
That is what a psychopathic president does.

But feel free to add ignorant and just plain stupid since he obviously is those, too. Psychopaths are very often incredibly ignorant and stupid. The highly educated, intellectual Hannibal Lecter is fiction! Ignorant, stupid, anti-intellectual Trump is real.

I would be more cautious about using the word incompetent. Calling him incompetent implies that you expect him to be trying to do accomplish something other than what he is actually doing.

Calling him incompetent makes your own idealism obvious: Some people may think that Trump isn't good at fighting the pandemic, for instance, but that is an absurd criticism since he isn't even trying. It isn't of any real concern to him. It would be like saying that all U.S. American presidents so far have been incompetent because they weren't very good at turning the world into a place of peace and harmony or the USA into a country of security and prosperity for everybody. Using the word incompetent for that reason would imply that they had actually been trying to accomplish those things. It is projection, it is what you would want them to be interested in when you believe in the American Dream and idealize the USA.

What Trump is actually trying to achieve is his fanboys' adulation, and he still hasn't lost that. They're out there with guns, eager to defend the USA against the imaginary marauding antifas. And Trump is so good at riling up guys like this that he has managed to assemble an actual personal guard of thousands of those fanboys with at least a little professional experience from law enforcement.

I wouldn't call that incompetent, much the same way that I wouldn't have called Saddam Hussein incompetent.

dann 8th June 2020 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 13106261)
I'd say his hissyfit over Twitter daring to criticize his tweet is more revealing. He's now attempting to exert government authority over a private company to censor criticism of himself. That's straight Soviet. It's an entirely mad response from an American president.


You hold American presidents in high regard, don't you?

TragicMonkey 8th June 2020 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 13117632)
You hold American presidents in high regard, don't you?

Very few of them have been insane enough to openly act and sound like Stalin: they've either been less power-mad or smart enough to not look it. Trump doesn't even try to hide his authoritarian fantasizing, which means he either doesn't recognize social norms or doesn't care if he's violating them. Either way, that's crazy in his position.

Stacyhs 8th June 2020 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 13117610)
You should take a look at his argument for the term psychopath rather than narcissist or sociopath. I found it convincing.

How dare he without interviewing Trump in person. :rolleyes:

Bob001 8th June 2020 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 13117788)
Very few of them have been insane enough to openly act and sound like Stalin: they've either been less power-mad or smart enough to not look it. Trump doesn't even try to hide his authoritarian fantasizing, which means he either doesn't recognize social norms or doesn't care if he's violating them. Either way, that's crazy in his position.

Every previous American president, good or bad, has gone to the White House as the culmination of a lifetime in public service, in either the military, public office or both, and has been committed to basic principles of American government. Even Nixon knew his Watergate shenanigans were wrong, and tried to conceal it, and in many ways he was a competent, responsible President. Trump is the first guy to take office after spending his life as a crook, a con artist and entertainer, and he has always imagined that he was elected Emperor.

Bob001 8th June 2020 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13117572)
....
Tell me again why it’s so important we assign professional labels...


Part of the reason is that they help predict what he might do next. Threatening to send American troops against protestors goes way beyond incompetence, so far that multiple senior military leaders felt compelled to say "Oh no you don't." Trump is entirely unrestrained by normal social expectations or any human feelings of empathy or shame.

Another assessment by one of the Yale shrinks:
Quote:

Trump is much more dangerous right now, and he will become increasingly dangerous as the 2020 election approaches if he's losing. Criticism, disagreement or opposition means to him that he is being attacked by evil people. This capacity to sink into paranoid rage is another aspect of his disorder. We should expect that he will try to turn America into a police state, or declare martial law and suspend the Constitution. He will likely try to prevent or overturn the 2020 election if he loses. In order to have an excuse for ending democracy, he is likely to have his own "Reichstag fire" incident, perhaps via starting a war with China or Iran. Like Hitler, he can then announce, "You must turn to me as your leader. I'm the only one who can save us in the time of this disaster."
https://www.salon.com/2020/06/07/for...-police-state/

Stacyhs 8th June 2020 04:09 PM

Thanks to Dann for posting this as it was very informative.

A Duty To Differentially Diagnose: The Validity Underpinning The Diagnosis Of The President

What a fascinating read! It completely blows the lid off the "you can't diagnose Trump without an in-person interview" argument. As I was reading it, each diagnostic criterion immediately brought to mind several examples I've seen from Trump perfectly demonstrating them. I agree 100% with this from the article:

Quote:

The arguments and evidence summarized by Lilienfeld and colleagues (2017) dismantle the core assumption of the Goldwater Rule: namely the necessity and primacy of the clinical interview. Informant and archival data provide higher validity than information gained from the interview.
We should also note the unreliability of interviewing someone who has every incentive to minimize discussion of unreliable traits. And (if it turns out he meets diagnostic criteria for psychopathy) whose natural mode of interaction is “operating” and lying to create a good impression.
Therefore, the Goldwater Rule does not have an empirical leg to stand on. The answer to the question “Can you perform a valid diagnostic evaluation without a clinical interview?,” is an unqualified “yes.”
Trump scored 32 out of 40 on the diagnostic scale for psychopathy. Wow. There is no doubt in my mind that he is a psychopath. And the Republicans are supporting him.

Delvo 8th June 2020 04:29 PM

I'm not convinced that that new wall thing around the White House is just to keep protesters far away. It's also what he'd do to set up the next step of having the walls even more thoroughly locked in place by whatever means and fortified, as his way of trying to stay there and "fight" to keep it after losing the election. The only real reason to think otherwise is that it probably exceeds his ability to plan ahead for anything at all. (But it could still be the plan of one of his equally insane sycophants.)

TheSupermeerkat 9th June 2020 09:04 AM

Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3
 
Double post

TheSupermeerkat 9th June 2020 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat (Post 13119367)
An interesting article:

Is Trump mad or just bad? Mental health experts sound the alarm

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2020/...ound-the-alarm

It more succinctly summarises this thread.

One things that leapt out at me:

Quote:

Motta: Regarding covid-19, Trump is pushing for states to re-open, and a large number of his supporters are over age 50, putting them at higher risk, so he could be potentially killing his own supporters. *This does not make sense.

Lee: You are thinking rationally, Trump is not rational. *He wins through bullying, and re-formulating reality, not by fixing it.
And another thing: "the Goldwater rule"

Quote:

The writers in Lee’s book took a professional risk, as the “Goldwater Rule” of the American Psychiatric Association (APA) prohibits members from publicly making diagnoses of public figures without an examination and permission from the subject.

Belz... 9th June 2020 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13118545)
Thanks to Dann for posting this as it was very informative.

A Duty To Differentially Diagnose: The Validity Underpinning The Diagnosis Of The President

What a fascinating read! It completely blows the lid off the "you can't diagnose Trump without an in-person interview" argument.

It had never much substance to begin with. Interviews are not the only way to diagnose someone.

Stacyhs 9th June 2020 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 13119372)
It had never much substance to begin with. Interviews are not the only way to diagnose someone.

I have always taken that view. But some have argued that it isn't ethical into the ground.

Another point the author of the article made is that interviews can be the least effective way to diagnose as a psychopath can manipulate and charm even professionals. They learn what to say and how to act for a given situation to get what they want.

Roger Ramjets 9th June 2020 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13119933)
Another point the author of the article made is that interviews can be the least effective way to diagnose as a psychopath can manipulate and charm even professionals. They learn what to say and how to act for a given situation to get what they want.

I find that hard to believe. Most psychiatrists are psychopaths themselves highly trained professionals so they would see through it immediately.

Stacyhs 9th June 2020 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets (Post 13120129)
I find that hard to believe. Most psychiatrists are psychopaths themselves highly trained professionals so they would see through it immediately.

I really don't know how to take that. Put me out of my misery and tell me you're just kidding.

Bob001 9th June 2020 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13120201)
I really don't know how to take that. Put me out of my misery and tell me you're just kidding.


There's a common suspicion that people who go into psychology and psychiatry are trying to understand and resolve their own problems.
Quote:

Suicide, stress, divorce -- psychologists and other mental health professionals may actually be more screwed up than the rest of us.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/a...-have-problems

Stacyhs 10th June 2020 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13120219)
There's a common suspicion that people who go into psychology and psychiatry are trying to understand and resolve their own problems.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/a...-have-problems

Interesting and I can well believe it. But that does not support Roger Ramjet's statement that 'most psychiatrists' would be able to see through a psychopath's act in an interview.


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