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-   -   Continuation Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341507)

jimbob 27th June 2020 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13138667)
Then why is it so important to medicalize Trump's obvious flaws?



Me neither. As I said, Trump and JFK are not comparable in their aptitude for the Presidency but they do share some commonalities due to their rich kid upbringings.

Because as has been pointed out - Trump's observed behaviour is highly abnormal, even by the standards of spoilt rich kids.

YOU ARE ASSERTING WITH NO EVIDENCE, AND AGAINST A LOT OF CONTRARY EVIDENCE THAT THERE'S NOTHING MEDICALLY WRONG WITH TRUMP'S MIND.

Until there is a competent, unbiased assessment, we don't what unique risks he poses as a result of his particular mental illness(es), All we can tell that something is seriously wrong, but not how it's likely to progress.

Also this:


Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13138700)
Because it gives one better insight into Trump's actions and Tweets.

For example, he's still determined to wipe out the last remnant of the ACA. Why do that when the country is in the middle of a medical and economic crisis. It makes no sense!

Unless you recognize this is still all about Trump's obsession with revenge on Obama. Trump is so obsessed, destroying anything Obama gives Trump some perverse satisfaction.

Without recognizing Trump's pathology, the decision to stomp out the ACA makes no sense.

Now that we are nearing the election and have the chance to get rid of Trump, understanding his pathology will be a great benefit in devising ways to defeat him. Get under his skin (not hard to do) and he loses all focus that intelligence and common sense would otherwise give a non-pathologic narcissist.


3point14 27th June 2020 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 13139265)
Xjx388 stated an opinion. It's neither right nor wrong.

Sure, just llike the opinion that the earth is flat is neither right nor wrong...


Bizarre.

dann 27th June 2020 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 13139265)
Xjx388 stated an opinion. It's neither right nor wrong.

In my opinion, while I appreciate the presumed reasoning behind the professional guidelines... (1) the observations of Trump in the wild are so voluminous, an observer is able to know more than what they would learn in a 50 minute face-to-face. (2) the risks arguably justify going against the guidelines.


Because he refuses to be seen wearing a mask?! :)

varwoche 27th June 2020 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 13139307)
Sure, just llike the opinion that the earth is flat is neither right nor wrong...


Bizarre.

I have a high degree of confidence that an astute poster like you is well aware the shape of the earth is a fact, quite unlike opinions about a fuzzy concept of what psychiatrists should do or should not do, ethically and within their practice guidelines.

3point14 27th June 2020 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 13139395)
I have a high degree of confidence that an astute poster like you is well aware the shape of the earth is a fact, quite unlike opinions about a fuzzy concept of what psychiatrists should do or should not do, ethically and within their practice guidelines.


Sure. But it's all still opinion.

Try this.

My friend thinks BvS is a fantastic movie. I think he's wrong.


I'm not sure what you're saying here. Or rather, what you're trying to say I can't say..?

Skeptic Ginger 27th June 2020 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13139224)
It's not about whether or not he's a friutloop - I agree that he is. I'ts about what psychiatrists should do or should not do, ethically and within their practice guidelines.

Now you're back to your old argument.

Skeptic Ginger 27th June 2020 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 13139412)
Sure. But it's all still opinion.

That's like saying science is just a religion.

No. Evidence based conclusions: the shape of the Earth, differ from opinions: medical professionals shouldn't share their evidence based diagnoses of Trump in public because it is unethical.

3point14 28th June 2020 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13139910)
That's like saying science is just a religion.

No. Evidence based conclusions: the shape of the Earth, differ from opinions: medical professionals shouldn't share their evidence based diagnoses of Trump in public because it is unethical.

Sure. But I was responding to someone who was claiming that I somehow wasn't able to validly tell someone whose opinion differed from mine that I thought they were wrong.

I still don't really understand the point they were trying to make.

xjx388 29th June 2020 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13138730)
JFK was certainly a rich kid. Whether he was "spoiled" is debatable. He was raised in a family that imposed high standards and was trained from childhood to believe that public service was a noble calling.

Well, sure, if you whitewash the past, everything looks like picket fences.
Quote:

Trump was trained to make money any way he could get away with.
Their similarities are more foundational than philosophical. Both raised by domineering fathers who favored them after their older brothers either died or disappointed. They were troublemakers in prestigious prep schools. They had the power and resources to get out of whatever trouble they got into. They presented a false image to the public in order to get elected. Yes, Trump is far less qualified and fit to be President than JFK was, but I think that only bolsters the idea that illness, whether mental or physical, does not make a very good criteria for Presidential fitness. JFK would very likely never have been elected if the extent of his illnesses had been known.

Quote:

And you refuse to grasp that the core of psychiatric diagnosis is what someone does, says and believes, and we have 40 years of documentation for Trump. There's no MRI for mental illness. You bend yourself into a pretzel to contend that Trump doesn't meet the observable diagnostic criteria for multiple severe disorders, and then you claim JFK was a psychopath. If Ringling Bros. was still around you could get a job as a headlning contortionist.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13138675)
Those boxes are checked off precisely because of what the person does, says and believes.

I'll respond to both of you here since you raise a similar point.

"Checking off boxes" is not the core of psychiatric diagnosis. You don't check off those boxes merely because a subject exhibits particular behaviors. And even if you could say that a subject has a mental illness, that isn't the same thing as saying they are unfit, even for the job of POTUS. What makes someone unfit for POTUS isn't the label you can give to the constellation of behaviors and personality traits they exhibit -it's the actual things things they do, say or believe.

A person with mental illness isn't dangerous becaue they have mental illness. A person free of mental illness isn't necessarily not dangerous. They are dangerous because they act in a certain way that may or may not have anything to do with mental illness. A person could have NPD, for example, but still want to do good things -even if the reason is that it bolsters their own self-image. What matters is what kind of person they are. You don't need a diagnosis to see what kind of person they are and a diagnosis can't tell you what kind of person they are in the first place.

Ladewig 1st July 2020 03:43 AM

Perhaps I am too focused on being precise but....

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 13137329)
It's bleakly amusing that Trump checks off each and every ASPD symptom. While this isn't a fresh observation, it's crystalized by his recent bizarre behavior concerning pandemic.
  • Disregard for right and wrong
  • Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others
  • Being callous, cynical and disrespectful of others
  • Having the unshakeable belief that one is an expert nonpareil at Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or personal pleasure
  • Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated
  • Recurring problems with the law, including criminal behavior
  • Repeatedly violating the rights of others through intimidation and dishonesty
  • Impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead
  • Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, aggression or violence
  • Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others
  • Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behavior with no regard for the safety of self or others
  • Poor or abusive relationships
  • Failure to consider the negative consequences of behavior or learn from them
  • Being consistently irresponsible and repeatedly failing to fulfill work or financial obligations

Also, I will agree that many US presidents possess “Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated”
But no other president in the modern era has ever said anything close to

Courts: "I know more about courts than any human being on Earth." (November 2015.)

Trade: "Nobody knows more about trade than me." (March 2016.)
Renewable energy: "I know more about renewables than any human being on Earth." (April 2016.)

Taxes: "I think nobody knows more about taxes than I do, maybe in the history of the world." (May 2016.)

wasapi 1st July 2020 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladewig (Post 13143539)
Perhaps I am too focused on being precise but....



Also, I will agree that many US presidents possess “Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated”
But no other president in the modern era has ever said anything close to

Courts: "I know more about courts than any human being on Earth." (November 2015.)

Trade: "Nobody knows more about trade than me." (March 2016.)
Renewable energy: "I know more about renewables than any human being on Earth." (April 2016.)

Taxes: "I think nobody knows more about taxes than I do, maybe in the history of the world." (May 2016.)

And, I recall that he also claimed to know more then any Military General.

In spite of his bone spurs.

dann 1st July 2020 08:59 AM

The difference between meritocracy and Dunning-Krugerocracy.

dann 1st July 2020 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wasapi (Post 13143788)
And, I recall that he also claimed to know more then any Military General.

In spite of his bone spurs.


And that would be the difference between thinking on your feet and thinking with your feet.

Skeptic Ginger 1st July 2020 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13141381)
...

"Checking off boxes" is not the core of psychiatric diagnosis. You don't check off those boxes merely because a subject exhibits particular behaviors. And even if you could say that a subject has a mental illness, that isn't the same thing as saying they are unfit, even for the job of POTUS. What makes someone unfit for POTUS isn't the label you can give to the constellation of behaviors and personality traits they exhibit -it's the actual things things they do, say or believe.

A person with mental illness isn't dangerous becaue they have mental illness. A person free of mental illness isn't necessarily not dangerous. They are dangerous because they act in a certain way that may or may not have anything to do with mental illness. A person could have NPD, for example, but still want to do good things -even if the reason is that it bolsters their own self-image. What matters is what kind of person they are. You don't need a diagnosis to see what kind of person they are and a diagnosis can't tell you what kind of person they are in the first place.

Says the person who admits over and over he has no professional expertise in diagnosing psychiatric illnesses.

You do check off the boxes, that's what the DSMV is all about. The difference between a medical provider and a lay person checking off the boxes is knowing what said boxes actually refer to.

There's a significant difference between Trump's pathologic narcissism and what some people have naively claimed was the same narcissism of many politicians.

Skeptic Ginger 1st July 2020 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladewig (Post 13143539)
Perhaps I am too focused on being precise but....



Also, I will agree that many US presidents possess “Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated”
But no other president in the modern era has ever said anything close to

Courts: "I know more about courts than any human being on Earth." (November 2015.)

Trade: "Nobody knows more about trade than me." (March 2016.)
Renewable energy: "I know more about renewables than any human being on Earth." (April 2016.)

Taxes: "I think nobody knows more about taxes than I do, maybe in the history of the world." (May 2016.)

Good examples.

Skeptic Ginger 1st July 2020 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 13143792)
The difference between meritocracy and Dunning-Krugerocracy.

:sdl:

Stacyhs 1st July 2020 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13144132)
Says the person who admits over and over he has no professional expertise in diagnosing psychiatric illnesses.

You do check off the boxes, that's what the DSMV is all about. The difference between a medical provider and a lay person checking off the boxes is knowing what said boxes actually refer to.

There's a significant difference between Trump's pathologic narcissism and what some people have naively claimed was the same narcissism of many politicians.

Well put. Of course not all mentally ill people are dangerous. I don't think that even needs to be said (although it seems like some do think we need that explained to us).

We are explicitly discussing TRUMP and there is no doubt in my mind, and in the minds of many mental health experts, that he IS mentally ill and dangerous.

xjx388 1st July 2020 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13144157)
Well put. Of course not all mentally ill people are dangerous. I don't think that even needs to be said (although it seems like some do think we need that explained to us).

We are explicitly discussing TRUMP and there is no doubt in my mind, and in the minds of many mental health experts, that he IS mentally ill and dangerous.


But is his dangerousness because of whatever mental illness he has or is it independent of that?

You would admit that one can be a dangerous President without being a mentally ill President, yes?

Skeptic Ginger 1st July 2020 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13144163)
But is his dangerousness because of whatever mental illness he has or is it independent of that?

We are on page 21 of part three. The answers to this question has been posted and thoroughly discussed.

Is there a reason you keep revisiting it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13144163)
You would admit that one can be a dangerous President without being a mentally ill President, yes?

Obviously. :rolleyes:

Steve 1st July 2020 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13144163)
But is his dangerousness because of whatever mental illness he has or is it independent of that?

You would admit that one can be a dangerous President without being a mentally ill President, yes?

If he were rationally dangerous the world would be a much more perilous place. Being crazy dangerous at least gives the (somewhat) more rational people around him more opportunity to redirect his more dangerous ideas. The danger in Trump, primarily to his own country, is that he has absolutely no concept of the consequences of the words that tumble from his mouth unhindered by thought.

xjx388 1st July 2020 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13144170)
We are on page 21 of part three. The answers to this question has been posted and thoroughly discussed.

Is there a reason you keep revisiting it?

Obviously. :rolleyes:


If it’s obvious that a President can be dangerous but not mentally ill, then I’m not sure why you think his dangerousness is part and parcel of his supposed mental illness.

p0lka 1st July 2020 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13138764)
Not only is Trump crazy but so are a lot of his supporters. At least two in this video are wearing Trump shirts but I'd bet most, if not all, of them are Trumpers.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=980394025712420

'it's not a democracy, it's a republic!'

oh my sides

dann 6th July 2020 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13144210)
If it’s obvious that a President can be dangerous but not mentally ill, then I’m not sure why you think his dangerousness is part and parcel of his supposed mental illness.


If it's obvious that a person can be dangerous but not a super spreader of SARS-CoV-2, then I'm not sure why you think his dangerousness is part and parcel of his supposed Covid-19, right?!

In the case of Trump, his psychopathy makes him so much more dangerous than any super spreader by letting the super spreaders roam free and making super-spreading events for them to attend because he doesn't care about protecting anybody but himself. That is a different kind of crazy than a president who pushes the red button because he is psychotic and sees alien invaders landing on the lawn of the White House.

Antipsychotic drugs wouldn't cure his delusions because they are deliberate. When he tells his fans that coronavirus will magically disappear, he doesn't do so because voices in his head tell him to. He tells them so because he thinks it will improve his chances of winning the next election.
When he tells his fans that windmills cause cancer, he doesn't do so because it came to him in a vision. He does it because he thinks that windmills are bad for his business, so if he can make people fear them for other reasons, that would be good for him.

So putting clozapine in his Diet Coke won't help. He needs to be dominated. There is no cure that will make him better.

Skeptic Ginger 6th July 2020 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13144210)
If it’s obvious that a President can be dangerous but not mentally ill,

Obviously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13144210)
...then I’m not sure why you think his dangerousness is part and parcel of his supposed mental illness.

Logic 101.

If A (not mentally ill) then B (dangerous POTUS)

If B (dangerous POTUS) doesn't mean then A

Trebuchet 6th July 2020 04:22 PM

If it's a bad thing to diagonose Trump as crazy without actually meeting with him, is it equally bad to diagnose Biden with dementia and run it on television ads without meeting him?

Delvo 6th July 2020 08:45 PM

Whatever his neurological issues are, in that Rushmore event a few days ago, they've visibly gotten another step worse than the last time I saw him trying to make a speech months ago. His left shoulder droops lower & farther forward than last time, his right shoulder squeezes farther up & back & twitches more than last time and pulls his head to the right more than last time, he clutches the podium harder than last time like he feels more in danger of falling over than last time, and he bothers to struggle through the effort of turning to face the left (to him; our right) half of the audience less often than last time. Also, although I don't know whether word mispronunciations have gotten more common than last time, their correlation with sudden right-shoulder twitches has gotten stronger and/or more obvious than last time.

Bob001 6th July 2020 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delvo (Post 13148967)
Whatever his neurological issues are, in that Rushmore event a few days ago, they've visibly gotten another step worse than the last time I saw him trying to make a speech months ago. His left shoulder droops lower & farther forward than last time, his right shoulder squeezes farther up & back & twitches more than last time and pulls his head to the right more than last time, he clutches the podium harder than last time like he feels more in danger of falling over than last time, and he bothers to struggle through the effort of turning to face the left (to him; our right) half of the audience less often than last time. Also, although I don't know whether word mispronunciations have gotten more common than last time, their correlation with sudden right-shoulder twitches has gotten stronger and/or more obvious than last time.

In 2016, he benefited from extensive coverage of his speeches and rallies. This time around, getting the same volume of coverage might be the worst thing that could happen to him. His base will still lap it up, but it's hard to believe he could attract many undecideds, let alone Biden-leaning voters.

Bob001 7th July 2020 08:52 AM

Trump's niece Mary's book will be released next week, despite the best legal efforts of his family. She is a licensed clinical psychologist who has known and observed him literally all her life. Does she get to say he's crazy?
Quote:

Donald escaped his father’s scorn and ridicule, Mary Trump wrote, because “his personality served his father’s purpose. That’s what sociopaths do: they co-opt others and use them toward their own ends — ruthlessly and efficiently, with no tolerance for dissent or resistance.”

The president, Mary Trump wrote, is a product of his domineering father and was acutely aware of avoiding the scorn that he heaped on his older brother, called Freddy, Trump writes.

“By limiting Donald’s access to his own feelings and rendering many of them unacceptable, Fred perverted his son’s perception of the world and damaged his ability to live in it.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...917_story.html

Skeptic Ginger 7th July 2020 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13149527)
Trump's niece Mary's book will be released next week, despite the best legal efforts of his family. She is a licensed clinical psychologist who has known and observed him literally all her life. Does she get to say he's crazy?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...917_story.html

Yes. I'm curious to see what diagnosis she offers.

I wasn't interested in this book at first, tabloid stuff and all that. But I didn't know she had a relevant education. Now I'm interested to read it.

slyjoe 7th July 2020 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13149729)
Yes. I'm curious to see what diagnosis she offers.

I wasn't interested in this book at first, tabloid stuff and all that. But I didn't know she had a relevant education. Now I'm interested to read it.

I think she said "Narcissism, obviously." Then she went on to list 2 or 3 other possibilities. I think CNN had it.

Bob001 7th July 2020 02:47 PM

An especially compelling quote:
Quote:

“The fact is, Donald’s pathologies are so complex and his behaviors so often inexplicable that coming up with an accurate and comprehensive diagnosis would require a full battery of psychological and neuro-physical tests, that he’ll never sit for,” she writes at another point in the book.

Mary Trump also describes her uncle as having been sheltered from the real world and from the consequences of his own behavior. “Donald has been institutionalized for most of his adult life, so there is no way to know how he would thrive, or even survive, on his own in the real world.”
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/07/mary...sociopath.html

Safe-Keeper 7th July 2020 02:48 PM

I'm getting my next Audible credit on the 20th. I think I'll be getting Trump's book (that's a sentence I thought I'd never say). I expect a lot of it will be obvious, but like Fire and Fury, it'll probably have some really relevatory moments.

Squeegee Beckenheim 9th July 2020 03:59 AM

She also says he has an "undiagnosed learning disability"

Belz... 9th July 2020 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13151616)

I can diagnose it: he's an idiot.

TheSupermeerkat 9th July 2020 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13151616)

May have.

Stacyhs 9th July 2020 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13151616)

I've said for a long time that he has a reading comprehension problem. He does not process what he's reading. He can read the words, but not retain what they mean. I bet if you were to have him read a page and then ask him to summarize what he had just read, he couldn't.

Bob001 10th July 2020 06:27 PM

A Yale shrink weighs in again:
Quote:

Trump is able to appear more in touch with reality when he is being worshiped. Indeed, when his primitive needs are not being challenged, he can look like a normal person — it's what has made him a successful con man. When he is challenged, however, his cruelty, sadism, paranoia, lack of conscience, incitement to violence and active pursuit of policies that kill people become obvious. These traits are properly described as "evil." In professional terms, they mean he is a psychopath.
https://www.salon.com/2020/07/02/dr-...roy-democracy/

Stacyhs 10th July 2020 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13153577)
A Yale shrink weighs in again:

Quote:

Quote:
Trump is able to appear more in touch with reality when he is being worshiped. Indeed, when his primitive needs are not being challenged, he can look like a normal person — it's what has made him a successful con man. When he is challenged, however, his cruelty, sadism, paranoia, lack of conscience, incitement to violence and active pursuit of policies that kill people become obvious. These traits are properly described as "evil." In professional terms, they mean he is a psychopath.
https://www.salon.com/2020/07/02/dr-...roy-democracy/

Yep. As long as he's getting his way and is happy he can act almost normal. We see that when he's not, the result is the tweeting rages, name calling, etc. I used to think Trump was just a complete ******* and extreme narcissist. I now truly believe he is psychopath.

jimbob 15th July 2020 05:54 AM

Read the transcript of yesterday's press conference

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts...script-july-14

That is not normal.

I really doubt that Joe Biden is going to ban windows, or that eyesight will be really bad* in 5-years time, whatever that means

Quote:

End solitary confinement. Free federal housing for former inmates. So federal housing now can go to inmates, former inmates. Rejoined Paris climate accord, and seek an even higher level of restrictions. Oh, I didn't notice that. Oh, I see. So they want to rejoin the Paris climate accord and they want to seek an even higher level of [inaudible 00:42:09]. In other words, make it worse than it was. Mandate net zero carbon emissions for homes, offices, and all new buildings by 2030, that basically means no windows, no nothing. It's very hard to do. I tell people when they want to go into some of these buildings, "How are your eyes? Because they won't be good in five years."


If you watch the video, you also see very gap gap odd gap timings as herunsuptosomething he gets and then pause pauses or flufd fluds fluffs words. The transcript fails to capture the full Grandpa Simpson nature of the monologue

*But my projection spotter makes me wonder if Trump is having visual issues.

Bob001 15th July 2020 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 13157775)
Read the transcript of yesterday's press conference

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts...script-july-14

That is not normal.
.....


Point-by-point account.
Quote:

Speaking in the White House Rose Garden, at what was billed as a "press conference" in which he would give remarks about China, Trump delivered a rambling 52-minute monologue filled with pre-scripted attacks on Democratic opponent Joe Biden.

As usual, Trump's comments were filled with egregious lies and other false claims. We haven't yet had a chance to comb through the entire transcript, but here is a list of the 19 false or misleading claims we have counted so far:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...id=mailsignout


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