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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

wobs 4th June 2020 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sphenisc (Post 13113468)
Question: Does the zoo have bats, pangolins and a suspiciously cheap cafe?

They do have bats! I am confident they're not the menu, even though one did find my daughters head when we went.

P.J. Denyer 4th June 2020 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13113438)
Is it rare for kids to go to school on their own?

Around here you have to take your one or two children to school in a 4x4 because the streets are too dangerous due to being full of 4x4s, each taking a child to school.....:rolleyes:

Captain_Swoop 4th June 2020 09:49 AM

From 15 June, face coverings (not clinical masks) will be mandatory on all public transport in England. Passengers who refuse to comply will be refused travel or fined, which will be enforced by staff and British Transport Police

Captain_Swoop 4th June 2020 09:51 AM

Network Rail chairman Sir Peter Hendy says he does not foresee workers having to police the new rules, saying: "This is about people being sensible - people do what they're asked as long as what they're asked to do is sensible."

So it's going to be chaos then.

P.J. Denyer 4th June 2020 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13113588)
Network Rail chairman Sir Peter Hendy says he does not foresee workers having to police the new rules, saying: "This is about people being sensible - people do what they're asked as long as what they're asked to do is sensible."

So it's going to be chaos then.

He doesn't get out much I take it?

Darat 4th June 2020 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13113584)
From 15 June, face coverings (not clinical masks) will be mandatory on all public transport in England. Passengers who refuse to comply will be refused travel or fined, which will be enforced by staff and British Transport Police


Which is based on scientific advice....

Nothing to do with trying to make people think they are safe on public transport once we all have to be crushed in together again.

It’s like theatre security at airports.

Darat 4th June 2020 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13113588)
Network Rail chairman Sir Peter Hendy says he does not foresee workers having to police the new rules, saying: "This is about people being sensible - people do what they're asked as long as what they're asked to do is sensible."

So it's going to be chaos then.


He doesn’t know Cummings.

Arcade22 4th June 2020 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobs (Post 13113481)
For younger kids you have to take them to school. I forget the cut off age where they can go on their own.

Either way it should be doable without incurring unacceptable levels of risk of spreading the infection. It's especially important for the schools to open because the continuing negative effects especially with regards to the most disadvantaged children and communities.

In that regard it comes off as utterly selfish and inconsiderate when some teachers demand that schools stay closed until they face little to no risk of being infected.

Darat 4th June 2020 10:11 AM

“.... The NHS coronavirus test-and-trace system designed to prevent a second deadly wave is not expected to work at full speed until September or October, the Guardian has learned.

Tony Prestedge, the chief operating officer of the NHS scheme, admitted in a webinar to staff that the programme would be “imperfect” at launch, adding that he hoped it would be operational at a world-class level within three to four months....”


Oh dear.....


https://www.theguardian.com/society/...e_iOSApp_Other

Mader Levap 4th June 2020 10:34 AM

Covid-19: how a virus is turning the world upside down

Quote:

In contrast to the financial crisis of 2008, when the focus was on saving banks and capitalism, political declarations and economic programmes now also seek to protect the most vulnerable people, nationally and globally. Hundreds of billions of dollars are available in the global North to finance rescue measures such as tax cuts, extended unemployment benefits, mortgage holidays, and liquidity for small and medium sized businesses.

Even countries that were initially willing to allow some older people to die, such as the UK and US, are bowing to pressure to follow a similar playbook. The US congress has agreed to a bipartisan $2.2tn covid-19 rescue bill, and despite substantial corporate handouts there is tacit agreement across the political divide to include direct payments to the most disadvantaged citizens.

The Don 4th June 2020 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13113431)
Boris Tweeted

Let’s continue to fight this virus by staying alert, keeping 2 metres away from others, and regularly washing our hands.
#StayAlert

If you catch it, it's your fault for not washing your hands (of the situation) enough:rolleyes:

The Don 4th June 2020 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13113619)
“.... The NHS coronavirus test-and-trace system designed to prevent a second deadly wave is not expected to work at full speed until September or October, the Guardian has learned.

Tony Prestedge, the chief operating officer of the NHS scheme, admitted in a webinar to staff that the programme would be “imperfect” at launch, adding that he hoped it would be operational at a world-class level within three to four months....”


Oh dear.....


https://www.theguardian.com/society/...e_iOSApp_Other

If they're admitting to 4 months, it could easily be a year if my experience of large government projects are anything to go by.

P.J. Denyer 4th June 2020 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13113775)
If they're admitting to 4 months, it could easily be a year if my experience of large government projects are anything to go by.

Or 'forever' if my experience of Boris is anything to go by.

quadraginta 4th June 2020 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13113619)
“.... The NHS coronavirus test-and-trace system designed to prevent a second deadly wave is not expected to work at full speed until September or October, the Guardian has learned.

Tony Prestedge, the chief operating officer of the NHS scheme, admitted in a webinar to staff that the programme would be “imperfect” at launch, adding that he hoped it would be operational at a world-class level within three to four months....”


Oh dear.....


https://www.theguardian.com/society/...e_iOSApp_Other


I am beginning to suspect that "world-class" means something different in British English than it does in American English.

Is this an ironic usage that everyone there understands as satire?

Captain_Swoop 4th June 2020 02:49 PM

Serco admits track & trace not likely to work for months but chief exec says he wanted to 'cement the position of the private sector' in the NHS supply chain. Rage-inducing story

https://theguardian.com/society/2020...er-coronavirus

The Don 5th June 2020 12:12 AM

It's depressing to see a global pandemic being used as a catalyst to achieve the key objectives of Brexit:
  • Privatising as much of the NHS as possible - ideally to US corporations
  • Lowering food standards to allow the US to flood the UK market with the likes of hormone-fed beef and chlorinated chicken
  • Abandoning worker and environmental protections
  • Lowering taxes and hollowing out the welfare state to further facilitate the transfer of wealth from the poorest to the most wealthy

That over 50,000 had to die to achieve it is just deplorable. :mad:

I watched the Channel 4 documentary on the government's (mis)handling of the Coronavirus crisis. If I hadn't already been out for a run with Mrs Don and done a spin class, the effect that programme had on my pulse and blood pressure would have counted as that day's 30 minutes of cardio.

Planigale 5th June 2020 12:28 AM

I am surprised it has taken so long for Silver Swan to leak. This was an exercise that the Scottish Government (the current one) did, modelling a coronavirus pandemic. It identified issues with lack of PPE, testing and contact tracing. No action taken on lessons learned.

(FWIW lessons learned were shared with NERVTAG UK based scientific advisory body, not sure whether shared with Westminster government.)

Squeegee Beckenheim 5th June 2020 12:35 AM

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/...893489664?s=20

Quote:

Grant Shapps announces that face coverings will become mandatory on #publictransport, as part of a new suite of measures called 'Things we should have done in March'.
#DailyBriefing #facecovering
https://twitter.com/SpanishDan1/stat...539534336?s=20

Quote:

Grant shapps showing he doesn’t give a flying flamingo on #skynews

“We only came into government in December “

Well f&&k me who has been in office since 2010 ?

Vixen 5th June 2020 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13113618)
Either way it should be doable without incurring unacceptable levels of risk of spreading the infection. It's especially important for the schools to open because the continuing negative effects especially with regards to the most disadvantaged children and communities.

In that regard it comes off as utterly selfish and inconsiderate when some teachers demand that schools stay closed until they face little to no risk of being infected.

It's interesting how the Swedish and UK eugenists suddenly have bleeding hearts towards 'disadvantaged children and communities' (for Sweden: read Somalis in Stockholm, for the UK: read people on benefits and low-paid BAME). Who cares if 'these people', as they are invariably referred to, go down with Covid19.

Mr Clingford 5th June 2020 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 13113342)
Meanwhile the government give the Daily Mail money to advertise how well they're doing.

Welcome to 1984

https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecad...75710586712067

There's a link to https://bylinetimes.com/2020/05/13/s...of-journalism/ "strangling-democracy-millions-paid-to-corporate-press-at-the-expense-of-journalism"
******* hell. What's the best way to support independent journailsm?

3point14 5th June 2020 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Clingford (Post 13114583)
There's a link to https://bylinetimes.com/2020/05/13/s...of-journalism/ "strangling-democracy-millions-paid-to-corporate-press-at-the-expense-of-journalism"
******* hell. What's the best way to support independent journailsm?

Utterly petrifying.

Arcade22 5th June 2020 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13114492)
It's interesting how the Swedish and UK eugenists suddenly have bleeding hearts towards 'disadvantaged children and communities' (for Sweden: read Somalis in Stockholm, for the UK: read people on benefits and low-paid BAME). Who cares if 'these people', as they are invariably referred to, go down with Covid19.

Lol yeah only Somalis are disadvantaged in Stockholm. You are clueless.

P.J. Denyer 5th June 2020 08:18 AM

It's stunning how many people don't understand that Boris Johnson is leader of the same Conservative Party that they think they are protesting against by voting for Boris Johnson.

zooterkin 5th June 2020 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13113584)
From 15 June, face coverings (not clinical masks) will be mandatory on all public transport in England. Passengers who refuse to comply will be refused travel or fined, which will be enforced by staff and British Transport Police

Although you're allowed not to wear one if you have, for example, asthma. No chance of any problems with that...


Also, there's supposedly some volunteer force being set up to remind people, but no-one thought to mention this to the rail unions, whose members are also expected to enforce the new regulation. The unions are threatening to strike.

Quote:

Rail unions have threatened to strike over government plans for an “army” of volunteers at transport hubs to remind travellers to wear a face covering.
...
Shapps said passengers would also be encouraged to cover their face when entering bus and train stations with the help of volunteer “journey makers”.
...

The RMT general secretary, Mick Cash, said the Department for Transport had “done a backroom deal to recruit unpaid and unskilled workers on our railway without even so much as conversation with rail unions,” and the union would consider a strike ballot.

While staff and unions have welcomed the moves to make face coverings mandatory, they remain concerned about implementation.

Cash said that, despite the use of the volunteers at stations reminding passengers, it was “clear that the government and industry bosses are expecting our members to police this policy”.

P.J. Denyer 5th June 2020 10:34 AM

Wait, so now Boris wants people to look like bank robbers and letter boxes? :confused:

Captain_Swoop 5th June 2020 10:45 AM

R number above 1 in some parts of England...no health or science experts at the presser...

Fishy as ****.

Darat 5th June 2020 10:51 AM

Are the government providing face masks or is it again going to be the lower paid who bear more of the financial burden?

Darat 5th June 2020 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13114845)
Although you're allowed not to wear one if you have, for example, asthma. No chance of any problems with that...


Also, there's supposedly some volunteer force being set up to remind people, but no-one thought to mention this to the rail unions, whose members are also expected to enforce the new regulation. The unions are threatening to strike.


This pandemic is really not playing fair, doesn’t it know that you just issue a press release and that solves the problem?

Captain_Swoop 5th June 2020 11:07 AM

Tory MP attended lockdown barbecue with journalists - Spectator deputy editor, Freddy Gray, and Isabel Oakeshott - as well as Richard Tice, Brexit party chairman

Quote:

The Tory MP spearheading efforts to promote the Covid-19 contact-tracing app trial on the Isle of Wight appears to have broken lockdown rules at a barbecue also attended by the chairman of the Brexit party and political journalists, the Guardian has learned.

Bob Seely went to the evening gathering hosted by the Spectator magazine’s deputy editor, Freddy Gray, in the village of Seaview on the island last month. Richard Tice, the Brexit party chairman, and his partner, the political journalist Isabel Oakeshott, were also there.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...th-journalists

Quote:

“In the interests of being transparent, I am happy to confirm that, as the island’s MP, I have had a very small number of other such face-to-face conversations
Quote:

Tice and Oakeshott did not deny their attendance and made reference to testing their eyesight

zooterkin 5th June 2020 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13114940)
R number above 1 in some parts of England...no health or science experts at the presser...

Fishy as ****.

More details here. The value is between .89 and 1.01 in different areas.

Calls for regional lockdowns, and claims, unsurprisingly, that restrictions were lifted too early.

Quote:

The influential model, from scientists at Public Health England (PHE) and the University of Cambridge, puts R at 1.01 for the north-west and 1 for the south-west. The north-west – including Liverpool and Manchester – is viewed as particularly concerning due to higher numbers of infections there, which would be projected to continue at the current rate.

Regional leaders said they feared the prospect of a second spike in deaths and that the decision to ease lockdown based on the national picture – ignoring regional hotspots – had been a mistake.

However, Matt Hancock, the health secretary, attempted to downplay the new study from Cambridge and PHE, which is part of his own department. He insisted it was right to ease the lockdown and claimed that the government’s overall view after looking at various studies was that the R value was still below 1 in all regions.

Appearing at No 10’s daily press briefing without the usual scientific experts alongside him, Hancock defended himself against an accusation that the government was “cherrypicking” good data in order to justify loosening restrictions.

Captain_Swoop 5th June 2020 06:19 PM

Grant Shapps, "We only came to Government in December"

So the past 10 years of Tory Govt just gets airbrushed from history.

Mojo 5th June 2020 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13114950)
Are the government providing face masks or is it again going to be the lower paid who bear more of the financial burden?


I assume that’s rhetorical.

Vixen 6th June 2020 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13114603)
Lol yeah only Somalis are disadvantaged in Stockholm. You are clueless.

They are disproportionately affected by Covid19, so where is the sense in 'disadvantaged children really really need to be back at school because suddenly we care so much about them'?

Vixen 6th June 2020 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13114845)
Although you're allowed not to wear one if you have, for example, asthma. No chance of any problems with that...


Also, there's supposedly some volunteer force being set up to remind people, but no-one thought to mention this to the rail unions, whose members are also expected to enforce the new regulation. The unions are threatening to strike.

Can't see the logic of that as asthmatics are considered relatively high-risk (10% of those who die of Covid19 have this as an 'underlying cause').

Advice given to asthmatics is pretty poor IMV as they are not told that inhalers will not help them if they have difficulty breathing due to Covid19 infection. This could lead to unnecessary fatalities due to people overdosing on their Ventolin.

Vixen 6th June 2020 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13114928)
Wait, so now Boris wants people to look like bank robbers and letter boxes? :confused:

With cctv cameras everywhere you go in London you can be sure they HATE the idea of people having their faces covered.

Vixen 6th June 2020 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13114950)
Are the government providing face masks or is it again going to be the lower paid who bear more of the financial burden?

They will be giving out disposable face masks.

Could be those dud masks that came all the way from Turkey a couple of months back. Wouldn't surprise me as they say you can make your own.

Vixen 6th June 2020 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13115505)
Grant Shapps, "We only came to Government in December"

So the past 10 years of Tory Govt just gets airbrushed from history.

It's OK, he was speaking as his alter-personna, Kenneth Green.

ThatGuy11200 6th June 2020 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13115712)
Can't see the logic of that as asthmatics are considered relatively high-risk (10% of those who die of Covid19 have this as an 'underlying cause').

Advice given to asthmatics is pretty poor IMV as they are not told that inhalers will not help them if they have difficulty breathing due to Covid19 infection. This could lead to unnecessary fatalities due to people overdosing on their Ventolin.

Do you have a link for that. Articles I've seen suggest asthmatics aren't at higher risk. For example:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infecti.../covid19/86323

Quote:

Rogers also cited mortality statistics from the New York State Department of Health, in which "asthma is not even in the top 10" comorbidities, even though 8%-10% of New York's population has asthma. Rogers noted chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) comes in after hypertension, diabetes, as well as other types of cardiovascular disease, dementia, and renal disease.

This does not necessarily mean asthma is protective, as other factors could explain these lower rates, she added. Patients with asthma may behave differently than patients with other chronic diseases, though Rogers said that seems unlikely, or it could be an artifact of how the data were collected.

But if these can be ruled out, it does at least raise the question of whether asthma or its treatment is "protective," she said. One reason that may be the case: The presence of type 2 inflammation in asthma or allergies, which is associated with lower expression of ACE2, thought to be the entry receptor for SARS-CoV-2 in host cells.

P.J. Denyer 6th June 2020 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13115505)
Grant Shapps, "We only came to Government in December"

So the past 10 years of Tory Govt just gets airbrushed from history.

Why not? It worked last December. Johnson's platform was 'Vote for me to fix the things my party (including Governments I was part of) have broken over the last decade'. I've spoken to people IRL who have literally claimed to have voted Tory as a protest against the last government! (Not smart people admittedly, but there's enough people that fall outside that category to swing an election).

Just wait, when Murdoch and the Barclays decide the time is right Johnson will be ousted and their papers will be assuring people that they should vote for the new Tory leader who has absolutely nothing to with any decision made in 15 years of Tory rule. But that the Labour leader is Micheal Foot in a rubber mask.

Squeegee Beckenheim 6th June 2020 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13114772)
It's stunning how many people don't understand that Boris Johnson is leader of the same Conservative Party that they think they are protesting against by voting for Boris Johnson.

The Tories literally got elected on a campaign of "we're the party that's fighting against the party who have been in power for the last 10 years". I mean, you've got to hand it to them, really.

P.J. Denyer 6th June 2020 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13115728)
The Tories literally got elected on a campaign of "we're the party that's fighting against the party who have been in power for the last 10 years". I mean, you've got to hand it to them, really.

If Boris Johnson murdered his parents he'd claim clemency on the grounds of being an orphan.

Borrowed from the rulebook for the rpg 'Paranoia'

Darat 6th June 2020 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13115714)
They will be giving out disposable face masks.

Could be those dud masks that came all the way from Turkey a couple of months back. Wouldn't surprise me as they say you can make your own.


Will they?

Arcade22 6th June 2020 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13115709)
They are disproportionately affected by Covid19, so where is the sense in 'disadvantaged children really really need to be back at school because suddenly we care so much about them'?

I have no idea what you are trying to say, but given the level of social exclusion and disadvantage that many immigrant communities experience it's obviously highly detrimental to their long-term welfare if Swedish schools had been closed.

It's not Swedish middle class people who would experience a disproportionate impact of the closure of schools.

zooterkin 6th June 2020 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13115752)
If Boris Johnson murdered his parents he'd claim clemency on the grounds of being an orphan.

Borrowed from the rulebook for the rpg 'Paranoia'

It’s much older than that. :)
Quote:

Leo Rosten in The Joys of Yiddish defines chutzpah as "gall, brazen nerve, effrontery, incredible 'guts', presumption plus arrogance such as no other word and no other language can do justice to". In this sense, chutzpah expresses both strong disapproval and condemnation. In the same work, Rosten also defines the term as "that quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan."
The Joys of Yiddish was published in 1968.

zooterkin 6th June 2020 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13115774)
Will they?

Volunteers for Transport for London will apparently be doing it from next week. I don’t know if anyone will be doing it for other rail or bus services; it’s only been mentioned that the volunteers there will be reminding people to wear masks.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ing-volunteers

Quote:

Transport for London volunteers will also be handing out single-use face coverings for journeys over the next week before they become mandatory on public transport on 15 June.

Mojo 6th June 2020 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13115778)
It’s much older than that. :)

Quote:

Leo Rosten in The Joys of Yiddish defines chutzpah as "gall, brazen nerve, effrontery, incredible 'guts', presumption plus arrogance such as no other word and no other language can do justice to". In this sense, chutzpah expresses both strong disapproval and condemnation. In the same work, Rosten also defines the term as "that quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan."
The Joys of Yiddish was published in 1968.


It looks as if it might go back a little bit further than that: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/359...d-then-pleaded

Quote:

Hypocrite: The man who murdered his parents, and then pleaded for mercy on the grounds that he was an orphan.

Abraham Lincoln

Although I haven’t found a quotation of that published earlier than the Rosten one.

P.J. Denyer 6th June 2020 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13115778)
It’s much older than that. :)


The Joys of Yiddish was published in 1968.

Ah, I think the Paranoia manual was quoting that (now you mention it I think it may even have been attributed to Mr Rosen, I read it a long time ago!) but I'm pretty sure that is the exact description they gave, word for word. Chutzpah is a character sheet attribute in Paranoia.

Darat 6th June 2020 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13115785)
Volunteers for Transport for London will apparently be doing it from next week. I don’t know if anyone will be doing it for other rail or bus services; it’s only been mentioned that the volunteers there will be reminding people to wear masks.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ing-volunteers


Has anyone told these volunteers?

P.J. Denyer 6th June 2020 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13115849)
Has anyone told these volunteers?

They don't know they're volunteering yet.

catsmate 6th June 2020 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13115785)
Volunteers for Transport for London will apparently be doing it from next week. I don’t know if anyone will be doing it for other rail or bus services; it’s only been mentioned that the volunteers there will be reminding people to wear masks.

So there'll be a group of people standing around trains all day? I hope they'll be regularly tested it sounds like a recipe for "super spreaders" as well as mindless idiocy.


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