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-   -   Indian MPs pass contentious citizenship bill that excludes Muslims (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334159)

Graham2001 10th January 2019 07:12 AM

Indian MPs pass contentious citizenship bill that excludes Muslims
 
The plot thickens...


Quote:

India's lower house passed on Tuesday legislation that will grant citizenship to members of certain religious minorities but not Muslims, sparking protests in the country's northeast.

https://au.yahoo.com/news/indian-mps...7326--spt.html

Norman Alexander 10th January 2019 06:45 PM

They want Rajahstan, their premier tourist destination, to cede to Pakistan?

dudalb 23rd January 2019 04:19 PM

And Gandhi turns over in his grave.....

Roger Ramjets 24th January 2019 02:14 AM

As usual, the facts are a little different from what is implied...
Quote:

Demonstrators in the state are angry about the bill not because it excludes Muslims but because it grants citizenship to settlers from elsewhere, accusing the migrants of taking away jobs from indigenous groups..

On Monday a small party in the BJP-led coalition in Assam, the Asom Gana Parishad (AGP), walked out of the alliance in protest at the bill, saying it would lead to an influx of Bangladeshi Hindus.
So the locals aren't at all concerned about Muslims being excluded, in fact they want it extended to include Hindus, Christians and Sikhs too!


Meanwhile, in Pakistan...
Quote:

Religious discrimination in Pakistan is a serious issue in modern day Pakistan. Christians, Hindus, Atheists and Ahmadi Muslims among other religious groups in Pakistan are routinely discriminated against. They are at times refused jobs, loans, housing and other similar things simply because of their choice of religious faith. Christian churches and Ahmadi worship places and their worshippers are often attacked...

In May 2014, a member of the ruling Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N), Dr. Ramesh Kumar Vankwani, revealed in the National Assembly of Pakistan that around 5,000 Hindus are migrating from Pakistan to India every year.

Susheel 25th January 2019 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets (Post 12575470)
As usual, the facts are a little different from what is implied...
So the locals aren't at all concerned about Muslims being excluded, in fact they want it extended to include Hindus, Christians and Sikhs too!


Meanwhile, in Pakistan...

Granted that there are protests against the bill on this basis. Most major media houses more or less toe the government line with regard to reporting...the BJP (the current Hindu fundie ruling party) has more or less infiltrated or even bought out most of the major media houses. Currently their strategy is to paint the party as a "moderate" by highlighting the "dissent" of the more extreme elements. So the protests based on the exclusionary nature of the bill that actually targets Muslims are usually sidelined or censored.
The BJP is basically the political arm of the RSS, which at one point worked hard to sabotage the Independence movement since they felt that the main fight was actually between "us" upper caste Hindus and "them" --- Muslims, Christians and the "lower castes". The RSS was also responsible for the assassination of Gandhi
The current government in India is essentially a Fundamentalist Hindu led government brought to power by our own brand of deplorables. Over the past year, however there has been an upsurge of dissent within the Hindu fundamentalist coalition as there are some who believe that the Prime Minister and the BJP has reneged on their "promise" to "get rid of all Muslims". A captive media highlights this to create the mirage of a moderate Central government, which is not really true.

dudalb 25th January 2019 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 12576929)
Granted that there are protests against the bill on this basis. Most major media houses more or less toe the government line with regard to reporting...the BJP (the current Hindu fundie ruling party) has more or less infiltrated or even bought out most of the major media houses. Currently their strategy is to paint the party as a "moderate" by highlighting the "dissent" of the more extreme elements. So the protests based on the exclusionary nature of the bill that actually targets Muslims are usually sidelined or censored.
The BJP is basically the political arm of the RSS, which at one point worked hard to sabotage the Independence movement since they felt that the main fight was actually between "us" upper caste Hindus and "them" --- Muslims, Christians and the "lower castes". The RSS was also responsible for the assassination of Gandhi
The current government in India is essentially a Fundamentalist Hindu led government brought to power by our own brand of deplorables. Over the past year, however there has been an upsurge of dissent within the Hindu fundamentalist coalition as there are some who believe that the Prime Minister and the BJP has reneged on their "promise" to "get rid of all Muslims". A captive media highlights this to create the mirage of a moderate Central government, which is not really true.

I think I can see where India is going, and it's not a good place.

Susheel 30th January 2019 01:57 AM

India...moving towards a "Hindu Taliban".

crescent 30th January 2019 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 12582885)
India...moving towards a "Hindu Taliban".

Those with Netflix can watch Baahubali 1 and 2, a recent pair Bollywood films. Very much a Hindu nationalist movie (yet watchable, if one is into foreign films). They seem to be some of the most expensive films ever made in India (although Thugs of Hindostan makes the same claim).

The thing about Baahubali that struck me was the chanting - sometimes instead of the usual Bollywood flowery singing, the music is instead chanting about the Hindu gods and such. That by itself may not seem bad - unless one has also seen some of the ISIS produced videos made when they controlled so much of Iraq and Syria.

The Hindu chants in Baahubali and the Muslim chants in ISIS videos are not all that far off. Kind of creepy.

In recent years there seems to be an increase in the use of "Hindustan" as an Indian-language substitute for "India". Previously, "Bharat" was the word most often used, that's the official name of India in most of the officially recognized languages there. The use of "Hindustan" instead of "Bharat" shows an increase in the use of Hinduism as a national identifier, further marginalizing the other religions there. I mean, the word Hindustan has always been around, but its use seemed much less common that Bharat - until recently.

dudalb 30th January 2019 05:17 PM

I wonder if the Sikhs are next on the Hindu to do list.
The people who killed Gandhi now effectively rule India. Disaster lies ahead.
So much for the whole "Hinduism is a very tolerant religion" routine. Fact is, the idea that the Abrahamic religons have some kind of monopoly on religious intolerance is crap.

crescent 30th January 2019 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12583911)
I wonder if the Sikhs are next on the Hindu to do list.

I think Sikhism is viewed as being close enough to Hinduism to get a pass. In Bollywood (I know, possibly not the best barometer of Indian society), Sikhs are usually portrayed as nice happy-go-lucky people. Who sing and dance. Whereas the existence of Muslims is largely ignored by Bollywood (despite many of Bollywood's biggest stars being Muslim themselves). It is very common for Indian Muslims to portray Hindus or Sikhs in film, but I can't recall seeing any Muslim characters in any of the Bollywood movies I've seen. Then again, I don't really watch all that much Bollywood.

Watch for efforts to treat many Muslims and Christians as low-caste Hindus who tried to escape by changing religions. If Baahubali is any indication, the caste system may be coming back into style. Watch also for claims of forced conversion, those claims never go away but ebb and flow. Also look for more violence associated with mixed-caste or mixed-religion marriages.

ETS: Like dudalb, I used to think of Hinduism as a tolerant religion that was more peaceful than other religions, and thought of karma as simple short term. I got past that. It's a fascinating religion, almost incomprehensible in its complexity. It has a history of amazing art and architecture. But it can be just as violent and intolerant as any other religion, and karma can be applied across reincarnated lifetimes and used as a basis for maintaining caste and social hierarchy.

dudalb 31st January 2019 02:23 PM

It's the reemergency of Untouchablity and a rigid caste system that might be the worst feature of Hindu Fundamentlism.
And , once again, a development that would have made Gandhi sick.
But them the people who killed Gandhi are pretty much in control of India now.
I wonder if with Modi it's another case of somebody who cynically thought he could use religious bigotry as a political weapon,but now found out it's out of his control.

Susheel 31st January 2019 10:58 PM

In the context of political Hinduism --- RSS and the Hindu Maha Sabha --- it is not so much the promotion of a Hindu India, but more importantly the return to casteist hierarchies and the re-establishment of upper caste Hindus in positions of power. Various leaders in the Hindu political movement have quite publicly declared their dream of a Brahmanic resurgence. As for Sikhs...they were also targets for Hindutva ideologues particularly during the period of Khalistan insurgency and the anti-Sikh violence that followed the assassination of Indira Gandhi provided these groups the opportunity to unleash violence on Sikhs largely under the blanket of the violence perpetrated by the Congress goons. Today, they couch the Sikh pogrom of 1984 as a purely Congress agenda and deny their own role.

Susheel 31st January 2019 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12584875)
And , once again, a development that would have made Gandhi sick...I wonder if with Modi it's another case of somebody who cynically thought he could use religious bigotry as a political weapon,but now found out it's out of his control.

In a way...Gandhi is responsible for the continuation of casteism in the Indian political milieu. He sabotaged and diluted Dr Ambedkar's attempts to uplift the lower castes and curtail the established norms that granted entitlements to the upper castes. He even rewrote Ambedkar's draft of the constitution to pacify the predominantly upper caste constituents of the freedom movement.

As for Modi, he is an RSS acolyte and was a hardcore foot soldier in the RSS movement. He was actively involved in the movement that culminated in the demolition of Babur's mosque in Ayodhya. The RSS is currently not happy with him since they see him more interested in indulging in crony capitalism and enriching his coterie rather than pushing the Hindutva ideology. Somehow, his government's silence, inaction and even denial of casteist and religion based violence on the poor and the minorities does not seem to be enough.

dudalb 1st February 2019 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 12585345)
In a way...Gandhi is responsible for the continuation of casteism in the Indian political milieu. He sabotaged and diluted Dr Ambedkar's attempts to uplift the lower castes and curtail the established norms that granted entitlements to the upper castes. He even rewrote Ambedkar's draft of the constitution to pacify the predominantly upper caste constituents of the freedom movement.

As for Modi, he is an RSS acolyte and was a hardcore foot soldier in the RSS movement. He was actively involved in the movement that culminated in the demolition of Babur's mosque in Ayodhya. The RSS is currently not happy with him since they see him more interested in indulging in crony capitalism and enriching his coterie rather than pushing the Hindutva ideology. Somehow, his government's silence, inaction and even denial of casteist and religion based violence on the poor and the minorities does not seem to be enough.

Gandhi made some unfortunate compromises he felt were necessary to get India out from under British Rule.
I agree with you that the tolerance that the RSS shows toward the Sikhs is probably just a tactical maneuver, and that in the end the Sikhs are on their to do list.
If things keep on going the way they are,a third Amritsar massacre is going to happen....
I know a number of Sikhs (they have a very strong presence in Sacramento area; particularly in the Marysville/Yuba city area;it is a huge rice growing area and a lof big rice farmers are of Sikh descent) and they are worried about their releatives in India with the rise of Hindu Fundamentalism.

dudalb 1st February 2019 02:48 PM

I saw a great cartoon whose punch line was:"Let those who want a Hindu nation move to Nepal;those who want a Muslim nation move to Pakistan, and leave India for the sane people of all faiths".

dudalb 1st February 2019 02:50 PM

But the scariest thing of all is you might have a government dominated by religious fantatics who will have Nuclear Weapons.........

There is a reason why in any study of the likeliest conflict resulting in the use of Nuclear Weapons a India Pakistan clash is the most likely by a huge margin.

Susheel 2nd February 2019 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12586292)
There is a reason why in any study of the likeliest conflict resulting in the use of Nuclear Weapons a India Pakistan clash is the most likely by a huge margin.

I have always felt that a lot of these "studies" tend to be heavily biased and seeks to portray the subcontinent as being populated by ignorant "brownies" who have no sense of control. India and Pakistan indulge in just the same level of saber rattling as The USA, Russia, the other break away states of the former USSR, Korea or Israel and yet the level of paranoia about possible "first strikes" always see the subcontinent as the primary threat.

crescent 3rd February 2019 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 12586765)
I have always felt that a lot of these "studies" tend to be heavily biased and seeks to portray the subcontinent as being populated by ignorant "brownies" who have no sense of control. India and Pakistan indulge in just the same level of saber rattling as The USA, Russia, the other break away states of the former USSR, Korea or Israel and yet the level of paranoia about possible "first strikes" always see the subcontinent as the primary threat.

None of the breakaway states of the USSR have nukes, other than Russia itself.

Israel does not face nuclear armed adversaries. They have them as a deterrent against conventional invasion.

North Korea seems to understand that actually using its nukes would result in its prompt and utter destruction, but they also look at what happened to Iraq under Saddam and feel that they need to keep the nukes as a deterrent against invasion.

India and Pakistan, by comparison have fought multiple wars against each other and have unresolved territorial disputes. One of the wars (the Kargil War) happened after they both developed nukes - the only time two nuclear armed nations have ever fought a war directly with each other. There continue to be cross-border raids and artillery strikes to this day. In 2008 Pakistan sponsored a very visible terrorist attack in Mumbai, killing 174 people.

There were times during the Cold War when the U.S. and U.S.S.R. came uncomfortably close to using nukes. We know that early in the Cold War some American military people viewed nukes as just a bigger bomb (there were proposals during the early 1950's to use them in Korea or China and then in the late 1950's to use them in Vietnam). There are stories of a Soviet submarine almost using nuclear weapons during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and of Soviet misinterpretation of an NATO training exercise in Europe during the 1980's leading to decisions getting very close to a launch.

But in the modern era, it is hard to see any risk greater than that posed by the India/Pakistan rivalry.

theprestige 3rd February 2019 11:14 AM

The thing is, nukes are indeed, first and foremost, just a bigger bomb.

dudalb 5th February 2019 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crescent (Post 12588020)
None of the breakaway states of the USSR have nukes, other than Russia itself.

Israel does not face nuclear armed adversaries. They have them as a deterrent against conventional invasion.

North Korea seems to understand that actually using its nukes would result in its prompt and utter destruction, but they also look at what happened to Iraq under Saddam and feel that they need to keep the nukes as a deterrent against invasion.

India and Pakistan, by comparison have fought multiple wars against each other and have unresolved territorial disputes. One of the wars (the Kargil War) happened after they both developed nukes - the only time two nuclear armed nations have ever fought a war directly with each other. There continue to be cross-border raids and artillery strikes to this day. In 2008 Pakistan sponsored a very visible terrorist attack in Mumbai, killing 174 people.

There were times during the Cold War when the U.S. and U.S.S.R. came uncomfortably close to using nukes. We know that early in the Cold War some American military people viewed nukes as just a bigger bomb (there were proposals during the early 1950's to use them in Korea or China and then in the late 1950's to use them in Vietnam). There are stories of a Soviet submarine almost using nuclear weapons during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and of Soviet misinterpretation of an NATO training exercise in Europe during the 1980's leading to decisions getting very close to a launch.

But in the modern era, it is hard to see any risk greater than that posed by the India/Pakistan rivalry.

It's that the basic motivation of the two contries might well be religious that makes it so dangerous.

dudalb 5th February 2019 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12588072)
The thing is, nukes are indeed, first and foremost, just a bigger bomb.

I hope you are joking.

Norman Alexander 5th February 2019 10:51 PM

Not to mention 1.2 billion Indians (4 times as many people as the USA) and 215 million Pakistanis (two-thirds of the USA). That's a LOT of raw human resources to draw on.

CaptainHowdy 5th February 2019 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham2001 (Post 12558887)

They sound like a very tolerant people. It would be nice if we could somehow get a few hundred thousand of them to move to the United States and Europe to help us with our diversity and multiculturalism problem.

Border Reiver 6th February 2019 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12588072)
The thing is, nukes are indeed, first and foremost, just a bigger bomb.

Short answer - that is incorrect.

Longer, more involved answer - while it can be argued that nuclear weapons are simply more efficient explosives, the reality is that there are very few long term effects for conventional explosives, while nuclear weapons pose immediate, short and long term risks for both the target and the rest of the area.

The short term effects include illness, blindness, etc in persons outside of the blast radius. And the longer term effects extend well beyond the positions where the shock wave from the blast finally dissipates with radiation poisoning affecting the human health, and the environment on quite an extensive scale.

Belz... 6th February 2019 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12583911)
I wonder if the Sikhs are next on the Hindu to do list.
The people who killed Gandhi now effectively rule India. Disaster lies ahead.
So much for the whole "Hinduism is a very tolerant religion" routine. Fact is, the idea that the Abrahamic religons have some kind of monopoly on religious intolerance is crap.

Well, that's all very depressing.

Democracy seems on the decline worldwide.

Belz... 6th February 2019 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12588072)
The thing is, nukes are indeed, first and foremost, just a bigger bomb.

Yeah if one ignores the radiation and the fact that a single launch may trigger the annihilation of all life on Earth. Sure.

Belz... 6th February 2019 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy (Post 12591155)
They sound like a very tolerant people. It would be nice if we could somehow get a few hundred thousand of them to move to the United States and Europe to help us with our diversity and multiculturalism problem.

Yes, because as we know, white Europeans are never part of fundamentalist groups nor do they commit acts of terrorism, ever. It's the brown people that are the real danger.

Ziggurat 6th February 2019 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12591363)
Yeah if one ignores the radiation and the fact that a single launch may trigger the annihilation of all life on Earth. Sure.

Full-scale thermonuclear war would indeed create unprecedented destruction of human civilization. But we do not have the capacity to annihilate all life on Earth. The place is too big, especially the oceans.

Belz... 6th February 2019 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12591764)
Full-scale thermonuclear war would indeed create unprecedented destruction of human civilization. But we do not have the capacity to annihilate all life on Earth. The place is too big, especially the oceans.

Thanks, Zig. I needed that nitpick, there.

Ok so it was hyperbole. The point is that nuclear weapons are not just bigger bombs; there's fallout and the fact that a single event could result in our annihilation.

dudalb 6th February 2019 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12591363)
Yeah if one ignores the radiation and the fact that a single launch may trigger the annihilation of all life on Earth. Sure.

It's the radiation that makes nukes so dangerous. If all they did was make a big but "Clean" explosion, yeah, they would still be very destructive weapons, but would not post a clear and present danger to civilization.

Ziggurat 6th February 2019 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12591770)
It's the radiation that makes nukes so dangerous.

Not really. Most deaths from Hiroshima were from the heat or the shockwave. Radiation deaths were significant but not a majority. We know a lot more about radiation now, so relative radiation deaths would likely be reduced in any future nuke event.

Radiation make nukes qualitatively different than conventional bombs, but the explosion itself is still the deadliest part.

dudalb 7th February 2019 04:01 PM

SHort term maybe, but it's the radiation that creates the long term problems.

dudalb 7th February 2019 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy (Post 12591155)
They sound like a very tolerant people. It would be nice if we could somehow get a few hundred thousand of them to move to the United States and Europe to help us with our diversity and multiculturalism problem.


THe only point in this piece of bigoted crap that makes sense is that the US and Europe don't need any more religious fanatics. That's for sure.. The US and Europe are quite capable of creating it's own lily White religious fantatics.
Look at the Fundies in the US South.
Look at the genuinses in Northren Ireland who up until the Good Friday accord were happly killing each in the name of Jesus..and who might very well start up again.
You fail big time.As Usual.

Ziggurat 7th February 2019 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12593242)
SHort term maybe, but it's the radiation that creates the long term problems.

A death ten years from now isn't worse than a death today. The immediate damage from a nuke is the majority of the damage.

Susheel 7th February 2019 11:17 PM

The Chief Minister of Gurjarat (BJP candidate and a former temple priest) recently announced INR 6500,000,000 (roughly USD 91000000) for the protection of cows. This is apart from the funds for a large statue of Ram they intend to install to compete with the Staue of Patel in Gujarat. Not to be left behind, the Maharashtra government (again BJP) intends to build a statue of Shivaji (historical King whose legend the BJP has appropriated to justify Bigotry). Meanwhile the government is looking for funding for the free Polio vaccine program that has until now been very effective...

dudalb 8th February 2019 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 12593549)
The Chief Minister of Gurjarat (BJP candidate and a former temple priest) recently announced INR 6500,000,000 (roughly USD 91000000) for the protection of cows. This is apart from the funds for a large statue of Ram they intend to install to compete with the Staue of Patel in Gujarat. Not to be left behind, the Maharashtra government (again BJP) intends to build a statue of Shivaji (historical King whose legend the BJP has appropriated to justify Bigotry). Meanwhile the government is looking for funding for the free Polio vaccine program that has until now been very effective...

Put Religious Wackjobs...or politicians willing to pander to Religious Wackjobs....in power, and bad things happen.

Susheel 15th February 2019 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12594213)
Put Religious Wackjobs...or politicians willing to pander to Religious Wackjobs....in power, and bad things happen.

The guy has a panel of godmen instated in the state goveernment and is currently trying to introduce a pension scheme for these so called ascetics.

Porpoise of Life 15th February 2019 02:09 AM

Shouldn't be too expensive if they're truly ascetics... a roof and a bowl of soup a day...

dudalb 15th February 2019 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life (Post 12601587)
Shouldn't be too expensive if they're truly ascetics... a roof and a bowl of soup a day...

On the other hand, there was Nehru's famous remark to a reporter:


"You have no idea how much it costs the Congress Party to keep Gandhi in poverty
.

Trebuchet 15th February 2019 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12602252)
On the other hand, there was Nehru's famous remark to a reporter:


"You have no idea how much it costs the Congress Party to keep Gandhi in poverty
.

So that's where Dolly Parton stole that joke!


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