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-   Non-USA & General Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=98)
-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

Samson 24th May 2020 04:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13100278)
The problem is whether Boris Johnson is a disreputable person or not, (and I do think he is an awful person, I did not vote for him for PM, I did not vote for him for Mayor, I did not vote for Brexit) is irrelevant. The decisions made must stand on their own virtue or not. Whilst there is some truth in the 'buck stops here' argument, personalising blame is not an effective way of improving things. I have argued the same thing in the Grenfell fire and the Hillsborough disaster threads. Whilst it satisfies a primitive need for vengeance, individual blame avoids addressing why a disaster happened, and more importantly what can be done to prevent disasters in the future.

We are relatively lucky, Covid-19 has a relatively low mortality, there are far worse viruses out there that are potential pandemics, SARS-CoV-19 might worsen just as the 1918 flu did. A different and more deadly virus might spread next year. It is more important to know why the system failed, if it did? Why did Nicola Sturgeon make the same errors as Boris Johnson?

Posters who seem to think that Johnson was uniquely bad (in this particular issue, not his generalised immorality), are I think displaying a cognitive bias that is anti-Tory. Otherwise why is the post above not Boris Johnson, Nicola Sturgeon and Mark Drakeford are to blame for thousands of Covid-19 deaths?

At some state we will hopefully find out what happened in the four nations discussions, and if Johnson put a brake on lockdown that the other three leaders wished to introduce earlier. In which case Johnson / Westminster Tories would be uniquely to blame. Maybe the issue was that getting a four nation consensus was itself the delay, in which case some better constitutional process for rapid decision making in an emergency is needed.
The art of the possible comes to mind.
New Zealand looks clever but not so.
From a long hot summer came a lazy ineffectual virus.
That empowered a woman with no substance.

Planigale 24th May 2020 04:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceptimus (Post 13100290)
You keep repeating this, but didn't Boris only go to Chequers after he was discharged from hospital? By then, he was no longer infectious, and had been told to go somewhere to rest and recuperate - presumably you'd agree that 10 Downing Street, is not the ideal place for someone to do that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-boris-johnson
I would have to check the particular rules at the time but isolation was longer for people discharged from ICU. (More severe disease is thought to be associated with longer viral shedding.) I think it would have been 14 days.
Quote:
"if they required critical care or they are severely immunocompromised, they should complete their self-isolation until at least 14 days from their first positive test"
To be clear this is current advice since it keeps changing it may have differed at the time.

ETA I personally think that this is not good advice, I would go for a definite negative test or seven days from discharge, not fourteen days from onset. Some treatments may prolong viral shedding whilst reducing severity of illness.

zooterkin 24th May 2020 07:15 AM
Why does the Cummings story matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carole Cadwalladr
Why does the Cummings story matter? And what does it obscure? The real story is the huge transfer of government assets to private companies that he is overseeing under cover of a pandemic while restructuring the Cabinet Office into his & @michaelgove's private fiefdom

zooterkin 24th May 2020 07:17 AM
Small side issue; finding a hashtag for stories related to Cummings are apparently a bit of a challenge because, like the Scunthorpe problem, tags containing the string 'cum' are not allowed on social media.

zooterkin 24th May 2020 07:51 AM
10 Downing Street Twitter account, 10 days ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @10DowningStreet
Do not leave home if you or anyone in your household has symptoms.

Stay alert, control the virus, save lives.

#StayAlert

[image]
BY STAYING ALERT
AND FOLLOWING THE RULES
WE CAN CONTROL THE VIRUS

GlennB 24th May 2020 08:22 AM
Confident prediction: an inquiry into the Cummings affair will be announced. While it drags its feet interminably government and civil service members will be unable to comment on the matter.

P.J. Denyer 24th May 2020 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceptimus (Post 13100290)
You keep repeating this, but didn't Boris only go to Chequers after he was discharged from hospital? By then, he was no longer infectious, and had been told to go somewhere to rest and recuperate - presumably you'd agree that 10 Downing Street, is not the ideal place for someone to do that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-boris-johnson


Everyone else was told not to go to their second homes, not "not to go to their second home unless you've had it and want to go somewhere nicer to recuperate, oh, and take your girlfriend along" or "not to go to their second homes unless they've got it and think that having their family do their shopping is easier than booking an Ocado delivery". The leaders of the country and their advisors should be setting an example and staying absolutely within the rules not manufacturing exceptions for themselves.

And as to the 10 Downing Street apartment not being ideal? Firstly he actually lives in the apartment at 11 Downing Street, a four bedroom residence rather than the two bed at number 10. And secondly, tough, plenty of people have spent the lockdown in considerably worse conditions than a four bed apartment for two adults and a child.

P.J. Denyer 24th May 2020 08:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennB (Post 13100428)
Confident prediction: an inquiry into the Cummings affair will be announced. While it drags its feet interminably government and civil service members will be unable to comment on the matter.
Maybe they'll release it at the same time as the Russian Interference Report? At this rate under the next non-Conservative government.

The Don 24th May 2020 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13100436)
Maybe they'll release it at the same time as the Russian Interference Report? At this rate under the next non-Conservative government.
Which, if Scotland gains its independence, IMO will not be in my lifetime. I'm 52 and am confident of another 35 years at least.

P.J. Denyer 24th May 2020 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13100441)
Which, if Scotland gains its independence, IMO will not be in my lifetime. I'm 52 and am confident of another 35 years at least.
Well, you might still see it under the thirty year rule. Or if the next Tory leader really wants to cut themselves away from Boris. Or maybe they'll just be committed to open and transparent democracy.

Just kidding!

Mr Fied 24th May 2020 09:10 AM
Oh what a surprise, Boris doesn't think his puppet master has done anything wrong.

Andy_Ross 24th May 2020 09:18 AM
Boris said
Quote:
I think he followed the instincts of every father and every parent
Quote:
In every respect, he has acted responsibly, legally and with integrity
He had "no alternative" but to travel to the North East for childcare
Quote:
when both he and his wife were about to be incapacitated by coronavirus
Cummings didn't travel to find childcare!

Andy_Ross 24th May 2020 09:25 AM
The PM makes it clear. By STAY AT HOME they meant DO WHATEVER WORKS FOR YOU.

The Don 24th May 2020 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennB (Post 13100428)
Confident prediction: an inquiry into the Cummings affair will be announced. While it drags its feet interminably government and civil service members will be unable to comment on the matter.
Seems that the government has decided that the proles should just mind their own business.

The Don 24th May 2020 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13100462)
The PM makes it clear. By STAY AT HOME they meant DO WHATEVER WORKS FOR YOU.
Unless you're not "one of us" in which case plod will be round to issue you with a stiff fine.:mad:

Mojo 24th May 2020 09:34 AM
After Boris had implied that some of the allegations against Cummings were untrue, he was asked specifically if Cummings had been to Barnard Castle, but for some reason failed to answer.

Lothian 24th May 2020 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13100459)
Boris said


He had "no alternative" but to travel to the North East for childcare

Cummings didn't travel to find childcare!
I don't recall the Government guidance stating "If all adults in the household could get Coronavirus you should travel back to your family home"
I also understand his wife has family (a brother) in London and he has another sibling in London which begs the question why they couldn't leave food on his doorstep.

Mojo 24th May 2020 09:52 AM
Couldn’t they just say that he had to travel to the town of his birth for a census?

GlennB 24th May 2020 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13100464)
Seems that the government has decided that the proles should just mind their own business.
Yeah, as dismissive (aka "***** you lot") goes, that was pretty spectacular.

Giordano 24th May 2020 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13100462)
The PM makes it clear. By STAY AT HOME they meant DO WHATEVER WORKS FOR YOU.
If you are wealthy and powerful.

But of course it’s silly of me to add that, given it is already so well understood by everyone.

P.J. Denyer 24th May 2020 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo (Post 13100480)
Couldn’t they just say that he had to travel to the town of his birth for a census?
What rough beast, it's hour come at last, slouches toward Durham to be born?

The Don 24th May 2020 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo (Post 13100468)
After Boris had implied that some of the allegations against Cummings were untrue, he was asked specifically if Cummings had been to Barnard Castle, but for some reason failed to answer.
As an aside, it's bizarre that the town I grew up in ( and had been visiting so regularly until late last year) is suddenly in the news

catsmate 24th May 2020 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13093798)
Mrs Don and I got out on our bicycles yesterday and cycled from our house, across the Severn Bridge and into deepest, darkest Gloucestershire and then retraced our tracks to return safely home.
I'm glad to see you survived your brush with Gloucestershire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13093798)
People were cycling singly, family groups or in pairs, no great herds of MAMILs
Family cycling seems to be a New Big Thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13093798)
There was a very noticeable police presence around Chepstow stopping and questioning cyclists and motorcyclists
Well, it's Chepstow. Containment is an important strategy.

Andy_Ross 24th May 2020 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13100508)
As an aside, it's bizarre that the town I grew up in ( and had been visiting so regularly until late last year) is suddenly in the news
One of my favourite places.

catsmate 24th May 2020 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13094313)
Yes, in Wales it's illegal to exercise with someone outside your household and AFAIK it's also illegal to cross from England to exercise in Wales.
Even if carrying a longbow? :jaw-dropp

Andy_Ross 24th May 2020 10:51 AM
Official UK Ciivil Service twitter tweeted

UK Civil Service
@UKCivilService
Arrogant and offensive

Can you imagine having to work with these truth twisters?

Andy_Ross 24th May 2020 10:52 AM
That tweet was taken down again but was featured on BBC News.

Andy_Ross 24th May 2020 10:55 AM
I have a feeling that many people will be using their "instinct" tomorrow to go out for the day as it is going to be a hot and sunny Bank Holiday.

Andy_Ross 24th May 2020 10:56 AM
Grant Shapps on the Marr show "We've never told people where they have to specifically locate themselves."

Really? I feel like the phrase "stay home" might have been mentioned.

Andy_Ross 24th May 2020 11:13 AM
Cabinet office Have tweeted

Cabinet Office
@cabinetofficeuk
An unauthorised tweet was posted on a government channel this evening. The post has been removed and we are investigating the matter.

catsmate 24th May 2020 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13099500)
Is there anything that the govt could do that you would criticise?
Indeed.

Andy_Ross 24th May 2020 11:35 AM
Priorities!

Lothian 24th May 2020 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13100508)
As an aside, it's bizarre that the town I grew up in ( and had been visiting so regularly until late last year) is suddenly in the news
Barnie or Durham? If the latter you will have to buy me drink next time you are up.

The Atheist 24th May 2020 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samson (Post 13100307)
The art of the possible comes to mind.
New Zealand looks clever but not so.
From a long hot summer came a lazy ineffectual virus.
That empowered a woman with no substance.
I can do that as Sam Hunt.

I think you're being way over the top in criticism of Jacinda.

Stop and think for just a split second as to how the opposition would have handled Covid. Like everything else they do, it would have been a mish-mash of conflicting ideologies, with the main thrust on the economy.

And we'd probably be exactly where Sweden is right now, with 2000 fresh graves instead of 20.

GlennB 24th May 2020 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13100522)
Grant Shapps on the Marr show "We've never told people where they have to specifically locate themselves."

Really? I feel like the phrase "stay home" might have been mentioned.
Rings a bell, as opposed to "do whatever your instincts as a concerned parent dictate, even if it means such things as a 5-hour drive with a sick parent and seemingly uninfected child in a car"

Man, this crap will come back to haunt Johnson. Oh, but he doesn't give a **** so maybe it won't.

GlennB 24th May 2020 12:19 PM
"The former chief constable of Durham police has launched a strident attack on Dominic Cummings and the government defending him, branding them self-privileged hypocrites who have damaged the fight against coronavirus at a time of national emergency.

Mike Barton ... told the Guardian: “It is clear he has broken the rules. It could not be clearer. I cannot think of a worse example of a breach of the lockdown rules. For it then to be defended by the government just beggars belief.”

Barton said the rules were clear: that anyone with symptoms of coronavirus should not leave their home."

link

The Don 24th May 2020 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothian (Post 13100567)
Barnie or Durham? If the latter you will have to buy me drink next time you are up.
Barney. Used to work in Durham (Mullard Colour Tubes on the Belmont Industrial Estate).

Sadly, once the house is sold, there'll be no need to come back Oop North.

Andy_Ross 24th May 2020 02:10 PM
14,000 Brits Could Now Appeal Lockdown Fines
Thanks to Dominic Cummings

Quote:
In yesterday’s Downing Street briefing, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps seemed to change the law, declaring that the lockdown provisions were a matter of individual responsibility.

The Attorney General – nominally the top lawyer in the country – Suella Braverman also posted a tweet implying that the lockdown provisions may not apply to an individual who was being a “good parent” – which also amounts to a fundamental change in the law
Quote:
. Of the 14,000 people fined under these provisions, how many of them may have been able to say ‘I was away from home because I needed to carry out my parental responsibilities’ or ‘I was away from my home because I believe that in my own individual circumstances it was the right thing to do’?

Until yesterday, that defence did not appear to be available to them and they were fined. Now, after the intervention of Government ministers – including, most significantly, the Attorney General – it is not clear.
https://bylinetimes.com/2020/05/24/1...inic-cummings/

Andy_Ross 24th May 2020 02:20 PM
To put this in to perspective a Northumberland nurse died alone at home after contracting coronavirus. She self-isolated from family because she was following Government rules., she was 29.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news...-mack-18060702

Dr.Sid 24th May 2020 02:28 PM
Edit: obsolete.


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