International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   USA Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Continuation The Trump Presidency: Part 25 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346437)

Skeptic Ginger 23rd September 2020 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilBiker (Post 13233949)
It gets weirder.

Donald Trump calls Pope Francis “disgraceful” after he says Trump is not a Christian.

Even funnier, from the same Twitter feed, a Fox News contributor states that Pope Francis needs to ask Trump’s forgiveness for implying Trump is not a Christian.

Then there is the Fox shill Greg Gutfeld claiming the "activist Pope" wants a TV show on MSNBC.

Projection by proxy? :p

My next thought was Oh Gawd! When Trump loses he's bound to become a horrible TV news presence.

Skeptic Ginger 23rd September 2020 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13233963)
Without going too far down a probably off-topic rabbit hole, I think one of the reasons 1984 has reverberated in the social conscious is because even though it has strong anti-communist, anti-authoritative, anti-fascist themes, it was written in such a way as to serve as a valid cautionary tale for misuse of government systems of many kinds.

I can see The Handmaid's Tale being perceived in a similar light: banned because it had an anti-Trump theme. :p

SezMe 23rd September 2020 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13233960)
Florida currently controlled by Republicans, and they are known to act... unethically. I certainly wouldn't put it passed them to try to start some legal trouble against Bloomberg (even if any criminal charges would be thrown out by the courts).

What they'll probably do is try to get a court to put a stay on the funds until the legality of the process is established. That would not allow the felons to vote and would certainly push any decision till after the election, by which time nobody will give a damn.

Skeptic Ginger 23rd September 2020 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 13233968)
Why it seems only yesterday Trump was hoisting somebody else's bible outside a church he's never visited while waxing philosophically about Two Corinthians.

When asked for his favorite Bible verse he couldn't even come up with John 3:16.

Skeptic Ginger 23rd September 2020 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladewig (Post 13233994)
If we are going that far let’s take one more step and say things like “I don’t have all the facts yet, but I heard that Gaetz is being investigated for a series of murders. People are claiming that LE agencies are investigating his links to a series of murders -but that claim could be completely false. Right now, nothing has been released to the media so we cannot judge the validity of any evidence that has been collected; for all we know, the evidence was never collected. At this point this assertion is all rumor and innuendo, perhaps even a slur campaign from an opponent. But a lot of people are saying that. It is not known if Gaetz has hired a lawyer to defend himself from these allegations of violence.

Shall we see if we can get that going on Reddit? :p

TragicMonkey 23rd September 2020 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13234173)
When asked for his favorite Bible verse he couldn't even come up with John 3:16.

Isn't that the one about wrestling?

thaiboxerken 23rd September 2020 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13233963)
Without going too far down a probably off-topic rabbit hole, I think one of the reasons 1984 has reverberated in the social conscious is because even though it has strong anti-communist, anti-authoritative, anti-fascist themes, it was written in such a way as to serve as a valid cautionary tale for misuse of government systems of many kinds.

Are you sure it's not about promoting liberal values of communism?

Stacyhs 23rd September 2020 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump is too stupid to realize that this is just his own MAGA version of what he's accusing the 1619 Project of doing: conservative propaganda vs liberal propaganda.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13233541)
That's a bit of false equivalency, don't you think? The difference between things like teaching tolerance vs teaching white supremacy?


Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13233565)
Yep.

"Biden endorses new math textbook titled 2+2=4"

"Trump endorses new math textbook titled 2+2=A Potato."

Doesn't mean both sides are the same, equally tolerant, or anything of that nature.

"Me being equally passionate about being wrong and you being equally passionate about being right means we're both the same" has been tentpole of arguments from the Right for a while now.


Notice my use of the word "accusing". I didn't say it was equivalent. As a former history teacher I am well aware of the whitewashing of history we have taught in our schools. As I've said before, Trump wants the Disney version of Pocahontas, not the Trail of Tears, or the story of broken treaty after broken treaty taught.

Stacyhs 23rd September 2020 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 13233800)
Pro-communist? I take it they never bothered reading it then.

Ironic, innit?

Firestone 23rd September 2020 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13233564)
Last night, Trump said of a Somali member of Congress, "she’s telling us how to run our country." He praised the good genes of whites days ago. It's not an "allegation." He's racist!

And even an equal opportunity racist:

""After phone calls with Jewish lawmakers, Trump has muttered that Jews 'are only in it for themselves' and 'stick together' in an ethnic allegiance that exceeds other loyalties," White House officials told @gregpmiller "

https://twitter.com/AndrewFeinberg/s...326593536?s=19

Babbylonian 23rd September 2020 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firestone (Post 13234226)
And even an equal opportunity racist:

""After phone calls with Jewish lawmakers, Trump has muttered that Jews 'are only in it for themselves' and 'stick together' in an ethnic allegiance that exceeds other loyalties," White House officials told @gregpmiller "

https://twitter.com/AndrewFeinberg/s...326593536?s=19

:id:

You really should have warned people to keep their irony meters away from your post.

RolandRat 23rd September 2020 02:50 PM

"Republicans have threatened to oust Speaker Nancy Pelosi if she tries to impeach Donald Trump for a second time.

Now House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy says he would introduce a motion to remove Pelosi if she acted.

Any “motion to vacate” the speaker’s chair would need Mr McCarthy and Republicans to secure a majority of House members to oust Ms Pelosi.

Republicans currently hold only 198 seats, versus 232 for Democrats.

“The president is supposed to move forward and they will. The Senate is supposed to take the action and they will, it’s their constitutional right and they are following through,” the California Republican told reporters on Wednesday.

“And I will make you this one promise, listening to the Speaker on television this weekend, if she tries to move for an impeachment based upon the president following the Constitution, I think there will be a move on the floor to no longer have the question of her being Speaker.

“She may think she has a quiver, we do too.”

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...?ocid=msedgdhp

Stacyhs 23rd September 2020 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SezMe (Post 13234126)
After reading that last sentence, I sat here and tried to think of standards that Trump has applied inconsistently. I couldn't but only because I couldn't think of *any* standards he has. I think "it makes me feel good" or "it will hurt someone that hurt me" or similar thoughts cannot be called standards in the usual sense of the word. So I have to disagree. Trump is so very reactive in the moment to his surroundings and those with him; this immediacy prevents him from using any standard by which to act.

This. Trump is an extreme present hedonist. This is from Dr. Philip Zimbardo, PhD and Rosemary Sword's excerpt from Dr. Bandy Lee's book:
Quote:

An extreme present hedonist will say or do anything at any time for purposes of self-aggrandizement and to shield himself from previous (usually negatively perceived) activities, with no thought of the future or the effect of his actions. Coupled with a measure of paranoia, which is the norm, extreme present hedonism is the most unpredictable and perilous time perspective due to its “action” component. Here’s how it works:

The extreme present hedonist’s impulsive thought leads to an impulsive action that can cause him to dig in his heels when confronted with the consequences of that action. If the person is in a position of power, then others scramble either to deny or to find ways to back up the original impulsive action. In normal, day-to-day life, this impulsiveness leads to misunderstandings, lying, and toxic relationships. In the case of Donald Trump, an impulsive thought may unleash a stream of tweets or verbal remarks (the action), which then spur others to try to fulfill, or deny, his thoughtless action.

Bob001 23rd September 2020 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13234260)
This. Trump is an extreme present hedonist. This is from Dr. Philip Zimbardo, PhD and Rosemary Sword's excerpt from Dr. Bandy Lee's book:


Oh, he's still just growing up.
Quote:

In the first three years of his term, I’ve collected 1,300 instances when a Trump staffer, subordinate or ally — in other words, someone with a rooting interest in the success of Trump’s presidency — nonetheless described him the way most of us might describe a petulant 2-year-old. Trump offers the greatest example of pervasive developmental delay in American political history.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...63d_story.html

Gulliver Foyle 23rd September 2020 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13231276)
When it comes to dealing with the Trump Dump, I think we should take a page from the book of the man himself:

write the USA off as a lost cause, declare bankruptcy, ditch all creditors.
Then, start over with a new shiny name for the enterprise.

May I suggest the No Donalds Society.

Stacyhs 23rd September 2020 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13234281)

This is also covered in Zimbardo and Sword's excerpt:

Quote:

As just mentioned, present hedonists live and act in the moment, frequently with little to no thought of the future, or the consequences of their actions. Most children and teenagers are present hedonists. Each day, they build on past experiences, but their concept of the future is still under development. People suffering from arrested emotional development, usually caused by a childhood trauma, are also present hedonists. Without therapy, the ability to mature emotionally beyond the age of trauma is difficult to impossible. When they reach adulthood, they may be able to hide their lack of emotional maturity for periods, but then, when in a stressful situation, they revert to behaving the emotional age they were when they were first traumatized. Depending on the degree to which the childhood trauma affected the person suffering from arrested emotional development, they may find that, over time, their present-hedonistic time perspective has morphed into extreme present hedonism.

Without proper individual assessment, we can only make a best guess as to whether Donald Trump suffers from arrested emotional development, which may or may not be a factor in his extreme present hedonism. Yet, with access to the extensive amount of print and video media exposing his bullying behavior, his immature remarks about sex, and his childlike need for constant attention, we can speculate that the traumatizing event was when he was sent away to military school at the age of thirteen. According to one of his biographers, Michael D’Antonio, Trump “was essentially banished from the family home. He hadn’t known anything but living with his family in a luxurious setting, and all of a sudden he’s sent away” (Schwartzman and Miller 2016). This would help explain his pubescent default setting when confronted by others.
However, his niece, Mary, also believes a traumatic event left Donald emotionally stunted and think the traumatic event was the illness of his mother when he was IIRC about 4. After she almost bled to death after a hysterectomy, she was never really well again and withdrew into herself leaving the raising of Donald to his elder sister, Maryanne.

Babbylonian 23rd September 2020 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 13234245)
"Republicans have threatened to oust Speaker Nancy Pelosi if she tries to impeach Donald Trump for a second time.

Now House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy says he would introduce a motion to remove Pelosi if she acted.

Any “motion to vacate” the speaker’s chair would need Mr McCarthy and Republicans to secure a majority of House members to oust Ms Pelosi.

Republicans currently hold only 198 seats, versus 232 for Democrats.

“The president is supposed to move forward and they will. The Senate is supposed to take the action and they will, it’s their constitutional right and they are following through,” the California Republican told reporters on Wednesday.

“And I will make you this one promise, listening to the Speaker on television this weekend, if she tries to move for an impeachment based upon the president following the Constitution, I think there will be a move on the floor to no longer have the question of her being Speaker.

“She may think she has a quiver, we do too.”

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...?ocid=msedgdhp

Talk about a completely empty threat. If he had that much backing, there could be no vote to impeach.

Stacyhs 23rd September 2020 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 13234314)
Talk about a completely empty threat. If he had that much backing, there could be no vote to impeach.

He's taking lessons in blustering from Dear Leader.

Babbylonian 23rd September 2020 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13234299)
However, his niece, Mary, also believes a traumatic event left Donald emotionally stunted and think the traumatic event was the illness of his mother when he was IIRC about 4. After she almost bled to death after a hysterectomy, she was never really well again and withdrew into herself leaving the raising of Donald to his elder sister, Maryanne.

All due respect to her expertise, but Mary is really reaching with that crap.

Donald was a spoiled rich kid for whom there were no real risks and no real consequences. His father continued treating him as such well into his adult life, bailing him out whenever Donald was in need, teaching him that he could **** up and **** people over and not have to worry about anything coming back on him. Donald spent all that time telling anyone who'd listen what a genius he was, while consistently failing at everything he tried to do. His image was everything, the facts meant nothing.

I don't buy for a second any explanation that lays the blame for his various pathologies on his mother dying when he was 4, except perhaps in the sense that she might have been a good influence on him.

Bob001 23rd September 2020 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 13234325)
.....
I don't buy for a second any explanation that lays the blame for his various pathologies on his mother dying when he was 4, except perhaps in the sense that she might have been a good influence on him.


His mother didn't die then. She lived to be 88. But if she was sick when he was a child and then became distant and rejecting, that would go a long way to explaining why someone would be desperate for attention and adulation.

And apparently she lived long enough to express disappointment in her boy:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8037181.html

Babbylonian 23rd September 2020 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13234334)
His mother didn't die then. She lived to be 88.

I misunderstood.
Quote:

But if she was sick when he was a child and then became distant and rejecting, that would go a long way to explaining why someone would be desperate for attention and adulation.
It apparently didn't get him to try very hard at anything. As far as I can tell, his only job (apart from his reality show) has been throwing his father's money around like he earned it.
Quote:

And apparently she lived long enough to express disappointment in her boy:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8037181.html
Good for her. Her son has been a piece of **** for a very long time.

pgwenthold 23rd September 2020 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilBiker (Post 13233949)
It gets weirder.

Donald Trump calls Pope Francis “disgraceful” after he says Trump is not a Christian.

Even funnier, from the same Twitter feed, a Fox News contributor states that Pope Francis needs to ask Trump’s forgiveness for implying Trump is not a Christian.

With the potential Supreme Court nominee being a catholic woman, already there are accusations that the democrats are "anti-catholic." Despite the fact that the 2020 democratic presidential nominee is catholic, and Nancy Pelosi is also catholic.

Clearly, the party is anti-cath9l8c.

I saw a survey today where 49% if catholic Republicans said that Joe Buden is at least "somewhat" religious.

63% said that about Donald Trump.

Get that? 2/3 of republican catholics think Donald Trump is at least "somewhat religious."

rdaneel 23rd September 2020 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 13234353)
With the potential Supreme Court nominee being a catholic woman, already there are accusations that the democrats are "anti-catholic." Despite the fact that the 2020 democratic presidential nominee is catholic, and Nancy Pelosi is also catholic.

Clearly, the party is anti-cath9l8c.

I saw a survey today where 49% if catholic Republicans said that Joe Buden is at least "somewhat" religious.

63% said that about Donald Trump.

Get that? 2/3 of republican catholics think Donald Trump is at least "somewhat religious."

Would the fact that he worships himself make that technically true?

Captain_Swoop 23rd September 2020 05:02 PM

Todays Trump presser

"I wish a lot of luck to Harry, 'cause he's gonna need it" -- Trump disses Meghan Markle

"I have tremendous trust in these massive companies that are so brilliantly organized in terms of what they've been doing w/the tests. I mean, I don't know that a government as big as we are could do tests like this"- Trump downplays govt's role in approving a coronavirus vaccine

Captain_Swoop 23rd September 2020 05:03 PM

Asked for his thoughts on the Breonna Taylor case, Trump praises Kentucky's AG (whose name he can't remember!) as "a star"

Trump says he has to take "an emergency phone call" and walks away while ignoring a reporter's shouted question about what his message is to people who are upset over Breonna Taylor's killing

Captain_Swoop 23rd September 2020 05:06 PM

"I have tremendous trust in these massive companies that are so brilliantly organized in terms of what they've been doing w/the tests. I mean, I don't know that a government as big as we are could do tests like this"- Trump downplays govt's role in approving a coronavirus vaccine

Steve 23rd September 2020 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13234374)
Todays Trump presser

"I wish a lot of luck to Harry, 'cause he's gonna need it" -- Trump disses Meghan Markle

She is black, and Trump don’t like ‘em. Uppity women!

Captain_Swoop 23rd September 2020 05:08 PM

Q: Will you commit to a peaceful transfer of power after the election?

TRUMP: "We're gonna have to see what happens."
"get rid of the ballots and there'll be a peaceful ... it won't be a transfer frankly it will be a continuation."

Bob001 23rd September 2020 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 13234337)
I misunderstood.

It apparently didn't get him to try very hard at anything. As far as I can tell, his only job (apart from his reality show) has been throwing his father's money around like he earned it.
....

Kids who crave attention can seek it in good ways or bad. Sounds like Trump got his attention by lying, stealing and hurting people.

Steve 23rd September 2020 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13234392)
Kids who crave attention can seek it in good ways or bad. Sounds like Trump got his attention by lying, stealing and hurting people.

The family way.

Aridas 23rd September 2020 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 13233800)
Pro-communist? I take it they never bothered reading it then.

Doesn't matter if they read it or not if they're quite willing to lie. It's even fair to say that they might be motivated to lie if 1984 serves as a potential stumbling block to their tactics and goals - which for certain parts of the right have long been to create exactly the situation that 1984 is warning against.



Quote:

Originally Posted by SezMe (Post 13234126)
After reading that last sentence, I sat here and tried to think of standards that Trump has applied inconsistently. I couldn't but only because I couldn't think of *any* standards he has. I think "it makes me feel good" or "it will hurt someone that hurt me" or similar thoughts cannot be called standards in the usual sense of the word. So I have to disagree. Trump is so very reactive in the moment to his surroundings and those with him; this immediacy prevents him from using any standard by which to act.

I suppose that I may as well respond to that with a little bit of a semantic reminder. In the disputed sentence, I said "I'd say that it's nigh certain that he knows quite well that he's applying inconsistent standards and is doing so quite intentionally." That's not saying or implying that Trump actually has standards, that's just pointing out that he knows that he's being inconsistent and is being intentionally inconsistent much of the time. That sentence is largely just building on the previous sentence that points out, for example, the Big Lie tactic.

Giordano 23rd September 2020 07:32 PM

I see 1984 as not anti-right are anti-left wing dictatorships so much as anti all totalitarian regimes, even though it reflects Orwell’s disillusionment with the Soviet system in particular. What is most scary is how predictive it is of Trump’s tactics: the big lies, the unfazed ability to maintain one “truth” and then switch to the opposite “truth” with no apology or even recognition of there being a change, the “one minute of hate,” etc. What amazes me is how ramped up Trump’s approach is even to the book. Not just a few “big lies” but many each day. The number of self-contractions within a single speech. Not a minute of hate each day but a vomiting up of hours of hate day after day. I can’t wrap my brain around how it isn’t recognized by most of his audience.

Giordano 23rd September 2020 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 13234384)
She is black, and Trump don’t like ‘em. Uppity women!

I understand he liked the original Aunt Jemima. Made great pancakes. Said “sir” a lot. I understand she was not a recent “immigrant.”

I think he recently quoted her: “Sir I have to thank you again for giving me that recipe. They are perfect beautiful pancakes. And my husband Ben thanks you for the rice. You are a genius cook.”

Aridas 23rd September 2020 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giordano (Post 13234488)
I see 1984 as not anti-right are anti-left wing dictatorships so much as anti all totalitarian regimes, even though it reflects Orwell’s disillusionment with the Soviet system in particular. What is most scary is how predictive it is of Trump’s tactics: the big lies, the unfazed ability to maintain one “truth” and then switch to the opposite “truth” with no apology or even recognition of there being a change, the “one minute of hate,” etc. What amazes me is how ramped up Trump’s approach is even to the book. Not just a few “big lies” but many each day. The number of self-contractions within a single speech. Not a minute of hate each day but a vomiting up of hours of hate day after day. I can’t wrap my brain around how it isn’t recognized by most of his audience.

To be clear, I wasn't saying that 1984 was anti-right. Rather, I was pointing out that certain groups with sway on the right in the US have been working to embrace and implement authoritarianism or otherwise upend the government (and, for example, make it small enough that it can be "drowned in a bathtub" so that the very rich can run roughshod over the rest of us) for a long while now.

Chris_Halkides 23rd September 2020 09:45 PM

the shape of things
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13234209)
Notice my use of the word "accusing". I didn't say it was equivalent. As a former history teacher I am well aware of the whitewashing of history we have taught in our schools. As I've said before, Trump wants the Disney version of Pocahontas, not the Trail of Tears, or the story of broken treaty after broken treaty taught.

Historian KC Johnson tweeted, "'It's hard to imagine a figure less qualified (or appropriate) to launch this sort of initiative than Trump." Elsewhere he offered a critique of the 1619 project. He and others have pointed to a lengthy rebuttal of this project at the World Socialist Web Site, which interviewed a number of distinguished historians. More recently the WSWS wrote, "The Times’ “disappearing,” with a few secret keystrokes, of its central argument, without any explanation or announcement, is a stunning act of intellectual dishonesty and outright fraud."

I have little doubt that Trump's preferred telling of our history would be sanitized and Bowdlerized. It is not that actual American history lies in between him and the 1619 project. I prefer to think of the truth as being the third point in an isosceles triangle.

Craig4 23rd September 2020 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 13233968)
Why it seems only yesterday Trump was hoisting somebody else's bible outside a church he's never visited while waxing philosophically about Two Corinthians.

We have a choice this election between two people who have been to that church. One was invited and walked through the front door. The other needed the National Guard, police on horseback and tear gas to just be able to stand on its patio.

If you're still voting for Trump in November, it means you're a moral sinkhole.

The Great Zaganza 23rd September 2020 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig4 (Post 13234633)
We have a choice this election between two people who have been to that church. One was invited and walked through the front door. The other needed the National Guard, police on horseback and tear gas to just be able to stand on its patio.

If you're still voting for Trump in November, it means you're a moral sinkhole.

yeah, but Trump talks directly to God...

Norman Alexander 23rd September 2020 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13234637)
yeah, but Trump talks directly to God...

...and God tells him he would definitely like to go golfing this weekend. Right after eating that bucket of fried chicken.

Stacyhs 23rd September 2020 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 13234325)
All due respect to her expertise, but Mary is really reaching with that crap.

Donald was a spoiled rich kid for whom there were no real risks and no real consequences. His father continued treating him as such well into his adult life, bailing him out whenever Donald was in need, teaching him that he could **** up and **** people over and not have to worry about anything coming back on him. Donald spent all that time telling anyone who'd listen what a genius he was, while consistently failing at everything he tried to do. His image was everything, the facts meant nothing.

I don't buy for a second any explanation that lays the blame for his various pathologies on his mother dying when he was 4, except perhaps in the sense that she might have been a good influence on him.

I suggest you read up on the importance of the relationship between mother and child in the healthy psychological/emotional development in early childhood. That he, like his siblings, hungered for their father's attention and approval speaks volumes. Trump's own children, especially Don Jr. and Eric, do exactly the same thing for the same reason: they were pretty much ignored as children by him and their almost doggish devotion to him now is embarrassing to watch.

a_unique_person 23rd September 2020 11:30 PM

The fundamentalists don't think Trump is a real Xian anyway. They regard him as a useful heathen.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:44 PM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-22, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.