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-   -   The conspiracy to overturn the 1st Amendment (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348054)

Saggy 21st November 2020 10:56 AM

The conspiracy to overturn the 1st Amendment
 
This conspiracy has been waged for 30+ years by the ADL, as exemplified by these documents ....

'Hate Crime Laws'
https://web.archive.org/web/20040205...rime/print.asp
and
'Racists. Bigots, and the Law on the Internet'
https://web.archive.org/web/20040411...rnet/print.asp

The conspiracy is now open, explicit, and pervasive, e.g. see

'Biden state media appointee advocated using propaganda against Americans and ‘rethinking’ First Amendment'
https://thegrayzone.com/2020/11/11/r...a-usagm-biden/

Here is a good example of how it works ...

'Abby Martin's Lawsuit'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTCQc6aRIiY&t=315s


The Trump administration is on board ....

'Executive Order Banning Antisemitism'
https://www.whitehouse.gov/president...anti-semitism/

It's really quite remarkable. A few years ago the internet gave us the illusion that we really did have free speech in the US. But now we see that the free speech illusion could only be maintained as long as big money had control of the media.

smartcooky 21st November 2020 12:10 PM

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.


Curbing harmful speech is not overturning 1A, its making 1A work for the vast majority.

Frankly, I'd like to see public Holocaust denial illegal - to become a criminal offence to either speak publicly, or to publish any media, or to assist in publishing any media that promotes Holocaust denial. That means prosecuting people like David Irving, Nick Griffin, Robert Faurisson, Albert Szabo, Istvan Gorkos, Dariusz Ratajczak (and Ernst Zündel if he wasn't dead). That means prosecuting the owners of Facebook and YouTube and other media outlets if they allow new pages to be created and videos to be uploaded and not immediately take them down .

Ron Obvious 21st November 2020 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13302121)

Frankly, I'd like to see public Holocaust denial illegal - to become a criminal offence to either speak publicly, or to publish any media, or to assist in publishing any media that promotes Holocaust denial.

Then you don't believe in free speech.

threadworm 21st November 2020 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13302121)
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.


Curbing harmful speech is not overturning 1A, its making 1A work for the vast majority.

Frankly, I'd like to see public Holocaust denial illegal - to become a criminal offence to either speak publicly, or to publish any media, or to assist in publishing any media that promotes Holocaust denial. That means prosecuting people like David Irving, Nick Griffin, Robert Faurisson, Albert Szabo, Istvan Gorkos, Dariusz Ratajczak (and Ernst Zündel if he wasn't dead). That means prosecuting the owners of Facebook and YouTube and other media outlets if they allow new pages to be created and videos to be uploaded and not immediately take them down .

Personally, I like to think fascist nazi filth should be allowed to post their diseased ideology, because then we can see exactly where they are and who they are. Free speech is then about pointing out who the fascists are so that they can be rightly and publicly vilified for being pointless wastes of oxygen, rather than listening to whining racist scum claiming they are being badly done to.

Thermal 21st November 2020 01:21 PM

I love a good conspiracy! Does this one have a shadowy cabal of cannibal Satanists, or is it more like the popular kids are spreading rumors about you? I hate that kind.

RolandRat 21st November 2020 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Obvious (Post 13302173)
Then you don't believe in free speech.

I absolutely do not believe in free speech. Just like I do not believe in universal suffrage.

Allowing both of the above to be pretty much unrestricted causes more harm than good.

lionking 21st November 2020 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Obvious (Post 13302173)
Then you don't believe in free speech.

There is no absolute free speech without consequence, and you know this.

Racial and religious vilification laws are fine by me. You can still say what you want about racial groups etc in Australia. You can advocate death to them in public. But there is a very good chance you will end up being arrested.

smartcooky 21st November 2020 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Obvious (Post 13302173)
Then you don't believe in free speech.

If you support the right of people to promote hate speech, then you support people who promote hate speech and agree with what they say.

(See how that works?)

I do believe in free speech, I don't believe in hate speech, or speech that does harm to people based on their religion, race, skin colour or ethnicity, or speech that incites violence.

Germany has done what I proposed, they did it in 35 years ago in 1985. Has it led to wider banning of other speech? No, it hasn't. Germany still has neo-Nazis, but the Holocaust deniers are muzzled.

In fact, 20 countries have laws either expressly forbidding Holocaust denial (highlighted in red) or encompassing H denial under the auspices of other hate speech crimes; Australia, Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Israel, Italy, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Slovakia and Switzerland.

I am ashamed to say that my country is not among them.

Russia is the only country among them whose rights to free speech are dubious, and they were already that way anyway when Putin signed Holocaust denial into Law in 2014

lionking 21st November 2020 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 13302195)
I absolutely do not believe in free speech. Just like I do not believe in universal suffrage.

Allowing both of the above to be pretty much unrestricted causes more harm than good.

I need you to explain that.

Thermal 21st November 2020 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13302198)
If you support the right of people to promote hate speech, then you support people who promote hate speech and agree with what they say.

(See how that works?).

<snipped for focus>

It really doesn't. Free speech can't possibly mean only speech you support or agree with. That's what 'free' is all about; to say things without fear of censure by those who don't support or agree with it.

Ron Obvious 21st November 2020 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13302198)
If you support the right of people to promote hate speech, then you support people who promote hate speech and agree with what they say.

No.

Shorn of emotional baggage, free speech is about the promulgation of ideas. "Hate Speech" is about governments censoring ideas they don't like. Maybe it's easier to understand that by imagining e.g. what Islamic governments would designate as "Hate Speech".

Truth doesn't enter into it, as that would require someone to designate what's true and what isn't for the rest of us. I wouldn't trust any government with that power.

RolandRat 21st November 2020 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 13302200)
I need you to explain that.

Sure. I do not believe allowing (practically) every adult to have the right to vote is a good idea.

Armitage72 21st November 2020 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by threadworm (Post 13302181)
Personally, I like to think fascist nazi filth should be allowed to post their diseased ideology, because then we can see exactly where they are and who they are. Free speech is then about pointing out who the fascists are so that they can be rightly and publicly vilified for being pointless wastes of oxygen, rather than listening to whining racist scum claiming they are being badly done to.


There was a sitcom in the mid-1990s in which the main character was the manager of a bus station. There was an episode in which he refused to rent a bus to a group of Neo-Nazis who were planning a big public outing to celebrate Hitler's birthday. The Jewish attorney who helped them sue the bus company argued that it was better for them to be out in the open where people could see them and laugh at them, instead of festering and growing in dark corners like mold.
We've spent the last several years seeing that there are a lot of people who won't laugh, but will instead be emboldened by seeing people who share their beliefs loudly expressing them.

smartcooky 21st November 2020 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage72 (Post 13302210)
[<polite snip>
We've spent the last several years seeing that there are a lot of people who won't laugh, but will instead be emboldened by seeing people who share their beliefs loudly expressing them.

This.

Every book, every video, every Facebook page, every newspaper article in which these scumbags are allowed to air their vile rhetoric, runs the risk of turning people towards their cause. Its the same way that Islamic extremists radicalize weak-minded people so that they willingly strap on a bomb vest and blow up a school bus.

In America, and in other countries, including my own, we have seen attacks on synagogues, churches and mosques - places of worship. These have been a direct result of allowing speakers of hate to promote their cause, the shooters and killers were radicalised by what they read and heard and watched.

I hope the The Museum of Jewish Heritage in New York has tight security... its only a matter of time!

Matthew Ellard 21st November 2020 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Obvious (Post 13302173)
Then you don't believe in free speech.

Holocaust denial is not a matter about free speech. It is more to do with unconscionable conduct as bad people seek donations or commercial sales for books or materials they know are not true, with the knowledge it is causing harm.

Bradley Smith would simply release a pamphlet containing already debunked facts and then seek donations and sales.

Nor does holocaust denial suffer a loss of free speech from being banned by private entities, like Facebook, You Tube and so on. It has its own social media platforms, such as CODOH and Stormfront.

If you believe you have the right to yell "******" at black people going about their daily business, then I guess you would extend Holocaust Denial to your definition of free speech.

Ron Obvious 21st November 2020 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard (Post 13302271)
Holocaust denial is not a matter about free speech.

Of course it is. It's no different than e.g. Flat-Earthism in the sense that it doesn't comport to reality, but I wouldn't ban Flat-Earthism either. They're both ideas and what people do as a consequence of being exposed to those ideas is not relevant. The right to disagree is fundamental in a free society.

I'm not a complete absolutist either since I believe direct incitement to violence and e.g. slander should remain exceptions, and the US Supreme Court agrees with me on this. The US doesn't need hate speech laws.

Ideas and the free promulgation of them is different than direct incitement

Examples:

"I think homosexuality is sinful and God will condemn all sinners to eternal Hell!" -- Clearly free speech, but probably "Hate Speech" in many European countries today.

"Let's go and kill us some homos for God today!" -- Direct incitement to violence and not free speech.

I prefer to be on the side of Voltaire and Christopher Hitchens when it comes to free speech and the free exchange of ideas.

Matthew Ellard 21st November 2020 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Obvious (Post 13302284)
....... since I believe direct incitement to violence and e.g. slander should remain exceptions, and the US Supreme Court agrees with me on this. The US doesn't need hate speech laws.

Eric Hunt
A San Francisco jury found a troubled New Jersey man guilty of a felony hate crime charge of false imprisonment on Monday while clearing him of five other felonies stemming from a bizarre encounter in which he pulled Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel out of a hotel elevator last year.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/artic...el-3276032.php


Eric Hunt was the leading, poster boy for CODOH and used by to post debunked stories about holocaust denial and raise money.

Bubba 21st November 2020 11:08 PM

Quote:

Posted by smartcooky

If you support the right of people to promote hate speech, then you support people who promote hate speech and agree with what they say.

Wrong. D-


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Obvious (Post 13302203)
No.

Shorn of emotional baggage, free speech is about the promulgation of ideas. "Hate Speech" is about governments censoring ideas they don't like. Maybe it's easier to understand that by imagining e.g. what Islamic governments would designate as "Hate Speech".

Truth doesn't enter into it, as that would require someone to designate what's true and what isn't for the rest of us. I wouldn't trust any government with that power.


Correct. A+

Orphia Nay 22nd November 2020 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saggy (Post 13302077)
A few years ago the internet gave us the illusion that we really did have free speech in the US. But now we see that the free speech illusion could only be maintained as long as big money had control of the media.

No. You're all confused.

Free speech is asking "big money" to control the media.

smartcooky 22nd November 2020 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba (Post 13302509)
Wrong. D-

Hint: you might try NOT ignoring what I was replying to and NOT clipping out the part of my post that might have allowed you to understand the meaning of what I posted..

Your comprehension skills E-

Bubba 22nd November 2020 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13302537)
Hint: you might try NOT ignoring what I was replying to and NOT clipping out the part of my post that might have allowed you to understand the meaning of what I posted..

Your comprehension skills E-



Wrong

F

Bubba 22nd November 2020 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13302537)
Hint: you might try NOT ignoring what I was replying to and NOT clipping out the part of my post that might have allowed you to understand the meaning of what I posted..

Your comprehension skills E-



Does it really matter where speech is either free, or it is not free?

Bubba 22nd November 2020 01:08 AM

Is this the first such thread?

It might be "the only conversation"


Why they named it *the first amendment* ???

Bubba 22nd November 2020 01:13 AM

Restricting speech is a very slippery slope.

As a means to, say,* prevent all hell from breaking loose, what is an alternative to restricting speech ?

Quote by smartcooky:

* "I hope the The Museum of Jewish Heritage in New York has tight security... its only a matter of time!"

- Smartcooky

The Great Zaganza 22nd November 2020 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba (Post 13302550)
Restricting speech is a very slippery slope.

As a means to, say,* prevent all hell from breaking loose, what is an alternative to restricting speech ?

Quote by smartcooky:

* "I hope the The Museum of Jewish Heritage in New York has tight security... its only a matter of time!"

- Smartcooky

how are you going to enforce that media companies safeguard free speech?

Bubba 22nd November 2020 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13302551)
how are you going to enforce that media companies safeguard free speech?

Good question. Got any ideas??

Did they ever?? If so, go back there and start over. But I doubt it ever was so.

The Great Zaganza 22nd November 2020 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba (Post 13302552)
Good question. Got any ideas??

Did they ever?? If so, go back there and start over. But I doubt it ever was so.

well, do you think the State has the right to force companies to give everyone a platform, even if that would not be in their economic interest?
Is the state going to compensate the company for lost advertiser revenue?

Bubba 22nd November 2020 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13302557)
well, do you think the State has the right to force companies to give everyone a platform, even if that would not be in their economic interest?
Is the state going to compensate the company for lost advertiser revenue?



Should Zucky and Dorsey obey the law??

The Great Zaganza 22nd November 2020 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba (Post 13302561)
Should Zucky and Dorsey obey the law??

It is not the law that companies need to protect Free Speech.
Neither is it the law that the State must protect free speech - that is the misconception here.

The State is not allowed to violate Free Speech itself ... which is no the same as making sure that on one else is doing it, either.

You seem to want laws that make all media part of the state when it comes to rules of Free Speech.

smartcooky 22nd November 2020 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba (Post 13302561)
Should Zucky and Dorsey obey the law??

What Law? Chapter and verse Bubba, tell us the statute.

Hlafordlaes 22nd November 2020 08:01 AM

Law and government are artifacts of reasoning, not science. They are bodies of formal opinion. To be as reliable and predictable as possible -- assuming one wishes to reduce bias, error and fraud -- the rules and field of play, in design and execution, must be reasonably logical and related to any grounding assumptions or principles. Otherwise, the system is easily gamed, apart from not providing the outcomes one would expect.

To my point: Speech that attacks equal voice in making and standing before the law seeks to undermine the basis upon which not only voice relies, but all political rights, extended on the basis of that equality. That speech is hate speech, and, IMO, can be prohibited in public political discourse and result in barring any candidate for any office, even dogcatcher, let alone, say, Pressie for Life.

I'd say the same for any religion denying the religious freedom of others or the right of adherents to leave; it should lose it's protection under the law, be it a preacher, denomination, or the entire faith. Otherwise, WTF?

And so on.

Saggy 22nd November 2020 08:21 AM

As expected, the concept of free speech has elicited a debate among the SI regulars. I am interested in looking at who is behind the efforts to restrict free speech in the US, the conspiracy if you will, and from my OP we see that the ADL has been at it for 30+ years. And, now they are pretty much in the catbird seat, working together with my alma mater, UC Berkeley, formerly home of the free speech movement, to restrict speech on the internet, see
'The Online Hate Index' ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lULmie51-pU

No doubt the Jews, who have been hated and expelled from hundreds of countries, are experts on hate ... see
'Expulsions and exoduses of Jews'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expuls...oduses_of_Jews

However, before turning control of the internet over to the ADL, perhaps we should try to understand why the Jews have been universally hated. There is a long article on the history of antisemitism on wiki, see
'History of Antisemitism'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism
However, I think it should be taken with a grain of salt, in it we read ...
"The first clear examples of anti-Jewish sentiment can be traced back to Alexandria in the 3rd century BCE."
that seems preposterous on its face as the Jews had been slaughtering people in the middle east for hundreds of years prior to that period.

Which brings me to a video that might shed some light on the subject, see
'NOAHIDE LAWS - WHY DO JEWS WANT TO KILL EVERYONE ELSE?'
https://www.bitchute.com/video/94Kxl8IgDv1C/
which begins with a quote from the Bible ...
Deuteronomy 20:16-18
"16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God."
and includes further explication of the relation between Jews and non-Jews today by Rabbi David Bar-Hayim, which according to the rabbi is that Jews should kill non-Jews because of 'all the detestable things they do'.

Hans 22nd November 2020 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saggy (Post 13302749)
deleted

The same rumbling incoherent rant links you've posted here before.

Why would you think this would be of any value?

sackett 22nd November 2020 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 13302195)
I absolutely do not believe in free speech. Just like I do not believe in universal suffrage.

Allowing both of the above to be pretty much unrestricted causes more harm than good.

Start a thread on the above, specifically your views on suffrage. Might be less tiresome than these periodic wrangles over unfree speech.

MarkCorrigan 22nd November 2020 01:26 PM

Yes yes, Jews bad. Do you seriously not have anything better to do with your time saggy? Instead of what could be a potentially interesting discussion on free speech and hate speech you descended directly into blaming the Jews for antisemitism. It's just sad.

smartcooky 22nd November 2020 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan (Post 13303027)
Yes yes, Jews bad. Do you seriously not have anything better to do with your time saggy? Instead of what could be a potentially interesting discussion on free speech and hate speech you defended directly into blaming the Jews for antisemitism. It's just sad.

I blame Christianity for anti-semitism. After all, the "Jews bad" perception was created by their 2000+ year old, violent, hate-filled book that blames the Jews for a multitude of vile and nasty things that they were never ever responsible for. You can draw a direct, unbroken line between the fiction of the bible (the claim that Pilate and Caiaphas were responsible for the crucifixion of their alleged spiritual leader) and the Holocaust.

Hlafordlaes 22nd November 2020 02:25 PM

Serious thread? Bah, humbug. What a waste of my time. Could've been watching paint dry. :sulk:

Matthew Ellard 22nd November 2020 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zagnaza
]how are you going to enforce that media companies safeguard free speech?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba (Post 13302552)
Good question. Got any ideas??

Well Bubba, has it occurred to you that both legislation and court made law has already evolved to do exactly that?

Can a newspaper have the free speech right to incite a riot under Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969)? What rights does that same newspaper retain?

How do you think defamation laws interact with the US Constitution?

Write us a little summary report so we can understand your knowledge on this?
:p

Pacal 22nd November 2020 03:25 PM

I, actually, support the right of Holocaust Deniers to free speech. That is the right to spread their crap without government suppression. Why?

Well because I think that if I am really in favour of free speech I am in favour of allowing without government suppression speech I despise and yes I despise Holocaust Denial.

Among the reasons is that I do not want to give Holocaust Deniers the mantle of Martyrs for free speech. It gives them utterly undeserved publicity.

It interesting to note that Deborah Lipstadt author of Denying the Holocaust and target of David Irving, Holocaust Denier, in a libel suit that he lost, is not in favour of laws criminalizing Holocaust Denial.

Of course I do not believe that Holocaust Deniers are entitled to a platform, neither do I think that Holocaust Deniers should in any way be immune from the ridicule and utter contempt they deserve.

Frankly to be a Holocaust Denier is to embrace being a vile human being.

Cavemonster 22nd November 2020 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13303044)
I blame Christianity for anti-semitism. After all, the "Jews bad" perception was created by their 2000+ year old, violent, hate-filled book that blames the Jews for a multitude of vile and nasty things that they were never ever responsible for. You can draw a direct, unbroken line between the fiction of the bible (the claim that Pilate and Caiaphas were responsible for the crucifixion of their alleged spiritual leader) and the Holocaust.

Very much disagree. Antisemitism pre-dated Christianity, and the early Christians WERE Jews.

The antisemitism that emerged in the texts and traditions within Christianity was just taken absorbed by the gentile groups that took up the clt in it's early days.

Matthew Ellard 22nd November 2020 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacal (Post 13303122)
I, actually, support the right of Holocaust Deniers to free speech. That is the right to spread their crap without government suppression. Why?

I understand your views but holocaust denial has no factual basis for its claims. Once Treblinka II underwent a forensic investigation in 2014 and the evidence was set out, holocaust denial became pure fantasy.

I don't think people should be denied the right to buy horoscopes, either, however horoscopes have a specific disclaimer......Horoscopes are for entertainment purposes only.

It would seem that holocaust denial at a minimum should come with a disclaimer that it is not based on fact. Considering that holocaust denial generates revenue from the sale of pamphlets and cult membership fees, it also attracts consumer law violations with propaganda being not fit for purpose and so on. :)

smartcooky 22nd November 2020 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard (Post 13303140)
I understand your views but holocaust denial has no factual basis for its claims. Once Treblinka II underwent a forensic investigation in 2014 and the evidence was set out, holocaust denial became pure fantasy.

I don't think people should be denied the right to buy horoscopes, either, however horoscopes have a specific disclaimer......Horoscopes are for entertainment purposes only.

It would seem that holocaust denial at a minimum should come with a disclaimer that it is not based on fact. Considering that holocaust denial generates revenue from the sale of pamphlets and cult membership fees, it also attracts consumer law violations with propaganda being not fit for purpose and so on. :)

Exactly. There will be more than one reason why Amazon took down all books and materials promoting this vile viewpoint.

smartcooky 22nd November 2020 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavemonster (Post 13303128)
Very much disagree. Antisemitism pre-dated Christianity, and the early Christians WERE Jews.

I don't want to get off topic here, but there is a good argument against that


However, this is really a topic that deserves its own thread.

Pacal 22nd November 2020 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard (Post 13303140)
I understand your views but holocaust denial has no factual basis for its claims. Once Treblinka II underwent a forensic investigation in 2014 and the evidence was set out, holocaust denial became pure fantasy.

I don't think people should be denied the right to buy horoscopes, either, however horoscopes have a specific disclaimer......Horoscopes are for entertainment purposes only.

It would seem that holocaust denial at a minimum should come with a disclaimer that it is not based on fact. Considering that holocaust denial generates revenue from the sale of pamphlets and cult membership fees, it also attracts consumer law violations with propaganda being not fit for purpose and so on. :)

I am rather dicey about the idea of Governments arbitrating what is Historical truth. Stalin's Russia and Maoist China and so many others have gone down that road.

Matthew Ellard 22nd November 2020 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacal (Post 13303268)
I am rather dicey about the idea of Governments arbitrating what is Historical truth. Stalin's Russia and Maoist China and so many others have gone down that road.

True....but it wasn't the government that did it. It was a forensic archaeological investigation by Staffordshire University and other universities across the planet.

I can't sell you poisonous arsenic with a label "good for colds!" because of government regulations, however the evidence is not from government, but from peer reviewed science papers from universities.

The sad story of Eric Hunt, a schizophrenic, kidnapping Elie Wiesel, a holocaust victim, based on debunked holocaust denial propaganda, clearly show there is a class of victims to holocaust denial nonsense, published to generate revenue.

Roger Ramjets 22nd November 2020 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saggy (Post 13302077)
It's really quite remarkable. A few years ago the internet gave us the illusion that we really did have free speech in the US.

How so?

Pacal 22nd November 2020 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard (Post 13303318)
True....but it wasn't the government that did it. It was a forensic archaeological investigation by Staffordshire University and other universities across the planet.

I can't sell you poisonous arsenic with a label "good for colds!" because of government regulations, however the evidence is not from government, but from peer reviewed science papers from universities.

The sad story of Eric Hunt, a schizophrenic, kidnapping Elie Wiesel, a holocaust victim, based on debunked holocaust denial propaganda, clearly show there is a class of victims to holocaust denial nonsense, published to generate revenue.

The argument that you used about arsenic is a very old one and one used by regimes like, Stalin's Russia and Maoist China. That bad ideas are like selling poison and the public should be protected from them.

I can list a whole series of ideas that many label has false. Should they be suppressed? Should Creationism be criminalized? It is after all easy to demonstrate that it is utterly false. Many people propagate ideas about history that are false, should that be criminalized?. Well is the government going to decide what is true? I can also give a long list of ideas that have led to people believing them to commit crimes. Again should such ideas be criminalized?

I have absolutely no faith in government criminalizing ideas, even stupid, evil ones. I see little in the history of the world that gives me any faith in it. It, when it is "effective", almost always goes into repression. It is interesting that countries that have have outlawed Holocaust denial have been extremely ineffective in enforcing it. The number of prosecutions remains small and prosecutors are generally fairly reluctant to go ahead.

All to the good in my opinion.

By the way people are free to say arsenic is harmless without fear of going to jail.

Saggy 22nd November 2020 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets (Post 13303332)
How so?

The internet has had an incredible effect in making information available, and for a while it was possible to say anything on the internet without fear of censorship.

It started with the usenet groups??? (something like that) as I recall. There were internet discussions groups on many topics that were totally unregulated. If you wanted to discuss a topic, like jazz for example, you went to the jazz usenet group. There were no restrictions.

I remember reading on a usenet group a post claiming that the stone plaque at Auschwitz stating that 4 million had been killed there was taken down in 1990 and replaced by one stating that 1.5 million had been killed there. Then there were a number of replies calling the original poster a Nazi or some such. I thought, that's something that can be checked. And, after a few hours (I don't really remember how long), and thanks to the internet, I was able to determine if the OP was true or false.

Then along came YouTube, and anyone could create a video on any topic whatever, and put it up on youtube where thousands could watch it. Anyone could create a website analyzed any subject whatever and google would find it. The way the algorithms worked, if your vid/website attracted viewers then it was promoted. All that is in the past. The ADL is now censoring YouTube, Amazon, Facebook, Google, reddit, and most of the discussion groups on the internet. What you can see on those platforms is controlled by the ADL. It's quite amazing really.

My video channel was deleted from youtube. My website delisted from google.

So, the internet was pretty much a free market for ideas for a while. Free speech existed and wasn't restricted to how loud you could shout. But no longer.

smartcooky 22nd November 2020 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacal (Post 13303339)
I can list a whole series of ideas that many label has false. Should they be suppressed?

Not necessarily... post your list!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacal (Post 13303339)
Should Creationism be criminalized?

Nope!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacal (Post 13303339)
It is after all easy to demonstrate that it is utterly false.

Is it? Lets see you demonstrate it then; it will be something new - no-one, in the whole history of the human race has ever been able to prove it false

Keep in mind also that you are not comparing like things. The Holocaust has been proven conclusively to have happened, whereas Creationism has not been proven false (Google "proving a negative").

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacal (Post 13303339)
Many people propagate ideas about history that are false, should that be criminalized?

Not necessarily; again, post your list

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacal (Post 13303339)
Well is the government going to decide what is true?

The Government doesn't do that with Holocaust Denial, science does that. Holocaust Denial does real harm to people, those who survived are made to relive it again; the descendants of both survivors and victims have their parents and grandparents called liars for telling about the suffering they endured. My uncle was a soldier among the those who were first to liberate the camps; and it affected him mentally for the rest of his life. To his dying day, hated Germans, and railed against deniers for questioning what he knows he saw with his own eyes. He took photographs too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacal (Post 13303339)
I can also give a long list of ideas that have led to people believing them to commit crimes. Again should such ideas be criminalized?

No necessarily; again, post your list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacal (Post 13303339)
I have absolutely no faith in government criminalizing ideas, even stupid, evil ones. I see little in the history of the world that gives me any faith in it. It, when it is "effective", almost always goes into repression. It is interesting that countries that have have outlawed Holocaust denial have been extremely ineffective in enforcing it. The number of prosecutions remains small and prosecutors are generally fairly reluctant to go ahead.

Many countries have managed to make Holocaust Denial a criminal act, some for 30+ years - I've yet to see a down side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacal (Post 13303339)
By the way people are free to say arsenic is harmless without fear of going to jail.

Not if they try to sell it and claim its harmless they don't - and Holocaust Deniers are SELLING the the bile they spread.

Saggy 22nd November 2020 08:46 PM

Just to see where the ADL wants to go with hate speech laws, check out Ireland's Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act of 1989, which contains the following language: http://www.holohoax101.org/thoughtcontrol/

(1) It shall be an offence for a person—
( a ) to publish or distribute written material,
( b ) to use words, behave or display written material—
(i) in any place other than inside a private residence, or
(ii) inside a private residence so that the words, behaviour or material are heard or seen by persons outside the residence,
or
( c ) to distribute, show or play a recording of visual images or sounds, if the written material, words, behaviour, visual images or sounds, as the case may be, are threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended or, having regard to all the circumstances, are likely to stir up hatred.


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