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-   -   Kyle Rittenhouse, accused multi-murderer from Kenosha BLM shooting (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346634)

SuburbanTurkey 9th September 2020 07:45 AM

Kyle Rittenhouse, accused multi-murderer from Kenosha BLM shooting
 
Seems relevant to make a thread for Kyle Rittenhouse, the 17 year old who drove from out of state to carry a rifle at the chaotic protests and riots in Kenosha following the police shooting of Jacob Blake.

Kyle was seen on multiple videos of the events shooting an unarmed protester, then shooting his way to safety as others came to try to apprehend the apparent active shooter.

He shot 3, killing 2. See link for criminal complaint detailing the events

https://www.theherald-news.com/lists...dex.xml?page=1

He is charged with:

- 1st degree reckless homicide for the killing of Rosenbaum, the first victim that was shot in the car lot.

- 1st degree intentional homicide of Huber, the man seen trying to stop the fleeing killer with a skateboard.

- 1st degree reckless endangering, for shots that endangered a journalist near the Rosenbaum killing.

- 1st degree attempted homicide, for the maiming of Grosskreutz, another man seen alongside Huber trying to stop the fleeing killer.

- 1st degree reckless endangering, for shots at third unidentified man attempting to stop him in the street alongside Huber and Grosskreutz.

- Possession of a dangerous weapon by a minor. Self explanatory, he was illegally carrying a rifle.


The NYTimes put together a timeline of the night from available live streams and other videos showing Rittenhouse roaming the street with the rifle leading up to the killings.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/u...ing-video.html


Rittenhouse is being charged as an adult and is being held without bail. Rittenhouse is being proclaimed by right wingers as acting in defense, and so far this seems to be the strategy of his legal defense.

His case has attracted questionable lawyers, such as defamation attorney LL Wood, famous for the Covington case. His case has become a large cause celebre for right wingers who see him as a hero standing up to antifa. His defense attorney, John Pierce, has resigned from the legal defense fundraising org after it was revealed that his firm was deeply in debt to prior creditors.

https://www.wpr.org/rittenhouse-lawy...s-defense-fund

Darat 9th September 2020 07:52 AM

Has he been arraigned? Can't see any articles that mention it.

SuburbanTurkey 9th September 2020 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13217524)
Has he been arraigned? Can't see any articles that mention it.

I don't believe so. I'm guessing he had some sort of bail hearing at some point, but I can't find any good sources.

Here's his case record over at the state website. I don't really know how to read these things.

https://wcca.wicourts.gov/caseDetail...etails#summary

Darat 9th September 2020 08:00 AM

I'm just wondering if he is going to plead guilty or not-guilty. To me this ones seems to be an open and shut case.

SuburbanTurkey 9th September 2020 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13217531)
I'm just wondering if he is going to plead guilty or not-guilty. To me this ones seems to be an open and shut case.

It may be a while. It's a multiple felony case and there's covid. Who no how long before this thing starts moving.

No bail, so our killer is on ice until then, so he doesn't benefit from delay.

Thermal 9th September 2020 08:03 AM

Been wondering why Ky-Ky didn't have his own thread.

Any claim of self defense should be 86ed on grounds of disproportionate response. Rosenbaum called him names and yelled at him? Maybe Ky-Ky should avoid confrontational situations if they scare him so badly. Or at least not arm himself and saunter right smack into the middle of one. No one appointed him a militia or private security. He sought out a battle and pissed his pants when he got it. A perfect cautionary tale of why you shouldn't swagger around with rifles in the street.

SuburbanTurkey 9th September 2020 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13217536)
Been wondering why Ky-Ky didn't have his own thread.

Any claim of self defense should be 86ed on grounds of disproportionate response. Rosenbaum called him names and yelled at him? Maybe Ky-Ky should avoid confrontational situations if they scare him so badly. Or at least not arm himself and saunter right smack into the middle of one. No one appointed him a militia or private security. He sought out a battle and pissed his pants when he got it. A perfect cautionary tale of why you shouldn't swagger around with rifles in the street.

Yes, I've been thinking this as well. At best Rosenbaum tried to grab the muzzle of his illegally carried gun. That's pretty weak grounds to light him up with rifle fire.

I'm sure his defense will try to slice things down into narrow vignettes that somehow justify self-defense, but the broader picture of the night is very damning. Kyle sought out a situation in which he could kill someone, and then he did. Afterwards, he shot his way out as heroic people tried to stop an active shooter fleeing the scene.

The reckless endangering charge of the journalist seems like an easy guilty, as the journalist describes what sounds like being hit with bullet splatter from Kyle shooting the ground. Obviously he was a minor in possession of a lethal weapon, so another guilty there, but that's a misdemeanor.

It's noteworthy that the maimed man is still alive to testify. Seems likely that he will state on the stand that he, like Huber and the others, were attempting to stop an active shooter. This will be very bad for the self defense claim.

I'm still waiting to see if there will be any criminal charges for adults who facilitated this armed minor. Someone handed him this rifle.

Venom 9th September 2020 08:07 AM

I didn't think it deserved its own thread, but whatever.

Going to another state anticipating shooting people is not my idea of vigilance or keeping the peace. **** him.

Thermal 9th September 2020 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13217537)
Yes, I've been thinking this as well. At best Rosenbaum tried to grab the muzzle of his illegally carried gun. That's pretty weak grounds to light him up with rifle fire.

I'm sure his defense will try to slice things down into narrow vignettes that somehow justify self-defense, but the broader picture of the night is very damning. Kyle sought out a situation in which he could kill someone, and then he did. Afterwards, he shot his way out as heroic people tried to stop an active shooter fleeing the scene.

The reckless endangering charge of the journalist seems like an easy guilty, as the journalist describes what sounds like being hit with bullet splatter from Kyle shooting the ground. Obviously he was a minor in possession of a lethal weapon, so another guilty there, but that's a misdemeanor.

It's noteworthy that the maimed man is still alive to testify. Seems likely that he will state on the stand that he, like Huber and the others, were attempting to stop an active shooter. This will be very bad for the self defense claim.

I'm still waiting to see if there will be any criminal charges for adults who facilitated this armed minor. Someone handed him this rifle.

Agreed. I'm suspecting he actually transported it himself, to to his pool lifeguard job and graffiti cleanup, then wait till dark to play Captain Kyle. Which would be a whole file full of felonies, I do believe. Unless of course his lawyers would like to elaborate on how a thousand dollar rifle and ammo fell into his hands in a neighboring state.

There is also video of him saying (before he started killing) that it was his 'job' to defend the ruins of the car dealership. Sure would like to know who 'hired' him for that. Seems like some serious charges for whatever adults might be involved in his supply chain

SuburbanTurkey 9th September 2020 09:16 AM

Still trying to figure out what LL Wood, a defamation attorney known best for the Covington case, is doing on a felony criminal defense case.

I understand why this fame chasing lawyer might try to glob onto another right wing headline, but what exactly is Kyle getting out of this? Is it purely for PR management and fundraising?

smartcooky 9th September 2020 09:45 PM

The usual suspects chiming to to support Rittenhouse in 3... 2... 1...

angrysoba 9th September 2020 11:13 PM

As well as state charges, are there likely to be federal charges? For example, if he brought in the gun from his home in Illinois would that be prosecuted by Wisconsin or federal prosecutors?

As others have mentioned, I am curious about how, if his defence is that the gun was in Wisconsin, how it came to be in his possession? Would that not suggest someone issued it to him? If so, who or what organization is legally arming 17-year olds?

I think the rest of his defence hinges on how believable he can make his self-defence claim of the initial killing. Unfortunately, we have seen some pretty lenient views on this in various recent cases such as Zimmerman-Martin where the cops apparently are satisfied that it was self-defence.

I can't see any way that his actions would be considered legal in the UK or elsewhere, but the US is... different.

dann 9th September 2020 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13218336)
The usual suspects chiming to to support Rittenhouse in 3... 2... 1...


They are too busy supporting Trump. As was Rittenhouse ...

Dave Rogers 10th September 2020 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13218336)
The usual suspects chiming to to support Rittenhouse in 3... 2... 1...

Didn't Trump declare it was self-defence a few days ago?

Dave

The Great Zaganza 10th September 2020 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 13218365)
As well as state charges, are there likely to be federal charges? For example, if he brought in the gun from his home in Illinois would that be prosecuted by Wisconsin or federal prosecutors?

As others have mentioned, I am curious about how, if his defence is that the gun was in Wisconsin, how it came to be in his possession? Would that not suggest someone issued it to him? If so, who or what organization is legally arming 17-year olds?

I think the rest of his defence hinges on how believable he can make his self-defence claim of the initial killing. Unfortunately, we have seen some pretty lenient views on this in various recent cases such as Zimmerman-Martin where the cops apparently are satisfied that it was self-defence.

I can't see any way that his actions would be considered legal in the UK or elsewhere, but the US is... different.

Usually, they don't bother with charging for crimes that would lead to much lower sentences compared to the main crime.
So no, there will probably be no federal charges against Rittenhouse.

There might be charges against whoever helped him get and/or transport the weapon.

Suddenly 10th September 2020 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13217531)
I'm just wondering if he is going to plead guilty or not-guilty. To me this ones seems to be an open and shut case.

There is always going to be an issue over what degree or type of homicide a homicide is because it depends on a mental state. Even if a self-defense claim fails as a defense it can be used as evidence as to mental state depending on the legal definition of murder.

SuburbanTurkey 10th September 2020 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13217531)
I'm just wondering if he is going to plead guilty or not-guilty. To me this ones seems to be an open and shut case.

I would assume he is almost assuredly going to plead not-guilty initially. Even in cases with plea deals, many initially plead not guilty and only change their plea after negotiating the terms.

Chris_Halkides 10th September 2020 05:52 AM

it's a bit murky to me
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13217531)
I'm just wondering if he is going to plead guilty or not-guilty. To me this ones seems to be an open and shut case.

link "The only thing that is clear is that nothing is ever the way it seems." Greg Prickett is a former police officer who now practices law.

Suddenly 10th September 2020 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13218595)
I would assume he is almost assuredly going to plead not-guilty initially. Even in cases with plea deals, many initially plead not guilty and only change their plea after negotiating the terms.

Yup.

I've seen a few people go into a felony arraignment and try to plead guilty. Pleading guilty to a felony requires a lot of inquiry about the plea being knowing and voluntary, which isn't feasible on the spot, so the Judge just enters a not guilty plea on their behalf and advises the person to seek legal counsel.

In practical terms, wanting to plea straight up at an arraignment is strong evidence that the person doesn't understand what is going on.

Dave Rogers 10th September 2020 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides (Post 13218615)
link "The only thing that is clear is that nothing is ever the way it seems." Greg Prickett is a former police officer who now practices law.

He goes into considerable detail over how, assuming no context from earlier events, Rittenhouse's second fatal shot may be considered to be self-defence; but he doesn't even mention the fact that, at the time these events occurred, Rittenhouse had already killed one person, nor does he discuss how this might modify the conclusion that the second shooting was in self-defence. This rather crucial omission leads me to question his conclusion.

Dave

Jerrymander 10th September 2020 06:30 AM

I've heard people call Kyle a white supremacist, is there evidence for that?

Thermal 10th September 2020 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides (Post 13218615)
link "The only thing that is clear is that nothing is ever the way it seems." Greg Prickett is a former police officer who now practices law.

Also from Greg: "Rittenhouse only killed two white people" Let that one sink in for a bit.

Also, his observation of the Huber killing is that it was obviously self defense. Apparently the author is not even aware that there is no self defense claim for a fleeing murderer.

Prickett makes it crystal clear that the murkiness is in his own head.

SuburbanTurkey 10th September 2020 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrymander (Post 13218664)
I've heard people call Kyle a white supremacist, is there evidence for that?

I haven't seen that anywhere, you have a source?

All available reporting I've seen shows that he's a wannabe cop and/or Back the Blue bootlicker.

Militia nuts and LARPing vigilantes tend to be lousy with all sorts of right wing extremist undesirables, including white supremacists. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few standing with Kyle hoping likewise looking for an opportunity to commit murder, but I don't see any specific claims.

Jerrymander 10th September 2020 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13217536)
Been wondering why Ky-Ky didn't have his own thread.

Any claim of self defense should be 86ed on grounds of disproportionate response. Rosenbaum called him names and yelled at him? Maybe Ky-Ky should avoid confrontational situations if they scare him so badly. Or at least not arm himself and saunter right smack into the middle of one. No one appointed him a militia or private security. He sought out a battle and pissed his pants when he got it. A perfect cautionary tale of why you shouldn't swagger around with rifles in the street.

I think you're trending dangerous ground. The other side could argue that "you shouldn't chase and attack a guy with a gun".

Darat 10th September 2020 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrymander (Post 13218776)
I think you're trending dangerous ground. The other side could argue that "you shouldn't chase and attack a guy with a gun".

What on earth does "the other side" mean in this instance?

Brainster 10th September 2020 07:52 AM

Easy prediction: He'll be found guilty of the unlawful possession charge and that's it. Realistically, the prosecution has zero chance of getting 12 people to find him guilty of the more serious charges and they'd be better off trying to get him to make a plea deal, but of course that will never happen, so they'll waste everybody's time. This is Bernhard Goetz, round II.

Jerrymander 10th September 2020 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13218783)
What on earth does "the other side" mean in this instance?

See post #11

Thermal 10th September 2020 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrymander (Post 13218776)
I think you're trending dangerous ground. The other side could argue that "you shouldn't chase and attack a guy with a gun".

That's actually pretty good advice, from a Staying Alive POV. A gentleman by the name of Mr Huber might opine on the relative strengths of skateboard versus Smith & Wesson AR-15 rifle. If he hadn't been killed in the effort.

Jerrymander 10th September 2020 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13218803)
That's actually pretty good advice, from a Staying Alive POV. A gentleman by the name of Mr Huber might opine on the relative strengths of skateboard versus Smith & Wesson AR-15 rifle. If he hadn't been killed in the effort.

Couldn't he have done that before he attacked him?

Thermal 10th September 2020 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrymander (Post 13218813)
Couldn't he have done that before he attacked him?

I hope he could have. That's actually something that has surprised me in all this. People seem shocked that armed people actually shoot. There was a alternate view video of Kyle's first kill, where the guy recording ran off after shots were fired repeating 'Omg he shot that m-fer.' Well, duh. What did he think guys pointing guns at you intend to do? Rosenbaum made the same mistake (presumably) that Captain Kyle was bluffing.

My assumption is that anyone waving a gun around intends to use it to end your life with it

Darat 10th September 2020 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brainster (Post 13218785)
Easy prediction: He'll be found guilty of the unlawful possession charge and that's it. Realistically, the prosecution has zero chance of getting 12 people to find him guilty of the more serious charges and they'd be better off trying to get him to make a plea deal, but of course that will never happen, so they'll waste everybody's time. This is Bernhard Goetz, round II.

Nothing for killing the people? :jaw-dropp

Jerrymander 10th September 2020 09:53 AM

Why did Rosenbaum attack him anyway?

Thermal 10th September 2020 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrymander (Post 13218984)
Why did Rosenbaum attack him anyway?

He didn't, as far as we know. He challenged Kyle to shoot him, which sounds like calling a bluff. He might have grabbed the rifle barrel, which might be defensive if Kyle was brandishing.

Jerrymander 10th September 2020 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13218990)
He didn't, as far as we know. He challenged Kyle to shoot him, which sounds like calling a bluff. He might have grabbed the rifle barrel, which might be defensive if Kyle was brandishing.

The video shows him chasing him and throwing something at him.

ServiceSoon 10th September 2020 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13217521)
...

- Possession of a dangerous weapon by a minor. Self explanatory, he was illegally carrying a rifle.


...

Your statement presented as an open and closed case that "Kyle was illegally carrying a rifle" is framing, thus not based in fact.

The rifle that Kyle had was loaned to him by a Wisconsin resident. This fact will be easily proven by authorities obtaining hte serial number from the weapon. Source. The claims by many that he carried it across state lines and that he possessed it in Illinois illegally without a FOIP card were more baseless accusations.

The laws in Wisconsin are written such that they do not make it illegal for Kyle, a 17 year old, to openly carry a rifle. If you want to argue the ambiguity of this statement you can call this lawyer John Monroe, a Dawsonville, Georgia, lawyer who specializes in gun-rights cases who made this statement to A Chicago Tribune newspaper.

Like every legal matter, we won't know the result until we wait for litigation to finalize.

Thermal 10th September 2020 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrymander (Post 13219018)
The video shows him chasing him and throwing something at him.

Yes, an apparently lethal *checks notes* plastic bag. I assume Kyle didn't get in any schoolyard tauntings or he might already have an impressive body count.

You arm yourself and march out into a riot, you better clearly understand what you are doing and what responsibilities you have with your deadly weapon.

SuburbanTurkey 10th September 2020 10:42 AM

Wonder how long Kyle is going to rot in jail before he gets his day in court. As a wannabe cop, I'm sure he's familiar with the expression "you may beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride".

Even if he pulls off a miracle not-guilty on all counts, he's not getting any of this pre-trial detention time back.

Jerrymander 10th September 2020 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13219042)
Yes, an apparently lethal *checks notes* plastic bag. I assume Kyle didn't get in any schoolyard tauntings or he might already have an impressive body count.

You arm yourself and march out into a riot, you better clearly understand what you are doing and what responsibilities you have with your deadly weapon.

But Rosenbaum kept at him and tried to grab him when he turned around.

Why would he chase after a guy with a gun running away?

carlitos 10th September 2020 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon (Post 13219021)

The laws in Wisconsin are written such that they do might not make it illegal for Kyle, a 17 year old, to openly carry a rifle. If you want to argue the ambiguity of this statement you can call this lawyer John Monroe, a Dawsonville, Georgia, lawyer who specializes in gun-rights cases who made this statement to A Chicago Tribune newspaper.

Like every legal matter, we won't know the result until we wait for litigation to finalize.

It's ambiguous, but probably not open-and-shut. What seems more likely is that the Wisconsin resident that loaned him the gun is in for a few problems, at the very least in terms of civil suits. They didn't loan him the gun to go hunting.

Thermal 10th September 2020 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrymander (Post 13219058)
But Rosenbaum kept at him and tried to grab him when he turned around.

Why would he chase after a guy with a gun running away?

To keep the armed threat in sight? Maybe to not let him find a good sniping nest? A random running around in a riot with a high powered rifle is a real threat to the public


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