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-   -   Trans Women are not Women (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325369)

The Atheist 5th December 2017 11:30 AM

Trans Women are not Women
 
This subject has been brought to a head in NZ by the inclusion of a trans woman in our weightlifting teams for the Commonwealth Games. Link: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinio...t-of-the-world

She competed as a bloke until a few years ago when it occurred to him that under new rules he could compete as a shiela and actually win something he was actually a woman trapped in a man's body, despite having male DNA.

In these inclusionary times I find it interesting that the main group of people who openly agree with the thread title are Germaine Greer and other TERFs. (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists) How appropriate that the very women who empowered women in the '60s are now, in their 60s, disempowering women.

I have no problem with trans women and even worked on a trans-positive hiring strategy with a couple of large companies, but I cannot and will not accept that they are the same as women. They are most welcome to use women's bathrooms, go to women's jails and changing rooms, but they're not actually women, and can see why Greer and others feel the same.

They have a choice.

No, I'm not saying gender/sexuality is a choice, but it certainly can be, as the significant - but small - sample of trans reversals displays.

sadhatter 5th December 2017 11:41 AM

I find situations like this interesting.

It shows that we are at a strange interval in equality, we are not quite at the point where we can have real frank useful discussions,we are all about being nice, but we are afraid to be reasonable for fear of being mean.

That is not showing trans people respect, that is treating them like disabled children, unable to understand to be reasonable, through no fault of their own.

Oystein 5th December 2017 11:42 AM

In sports, the main reason why men and women compete separately is that men, due to differences in hormonal mix and development, quite simply grow stronger muscles, and on average also grow taller, than women. It's a matter of biological, physiological sporting fairness.

So I can see, and actually support, that transgender folks who are treated as women socially are still treated as men athletically, if they (still) have the male mix of testosterone, size, muscles etc.

Or else, next thing we have a boxer claiming to be a feather weight trapped in a heavy weight body!

theprestige 5th December 2017 11:44 AM

If transwomen are allowed to compete athletically as women, it will effectively exclude ciswomen from athletic competition. Sure, there will probably always be some ciswomen on the team, as long as women's sport continues to exist, anyway. But they will be there as handmaidens to the transwomen who actually matter competitively.

BStrong 5th December 2017 11:47 AM

I imagine that sport sanctioning bodies may have to address the issue, but it isn't a question that will determine the fate of civilization.

It wasn't so long ago that the NASCAR driver Robby Gordon complained about the advantage that female drivers generally have over male drivers - less weight:

http://distributedrepublic.net/archi...women-drivers/

Gordon, a former open-wheel driver now in NASCAR, contends that Patrick is at an advantage over the rest of the competitors because she only weighs 100 pounds. Because all the cars weigh the same, Patrick's is lighter on the race track.

"The lighter the car, the faster it goes," Gordon said. "Do the math. Put her in the car at her weight, then put me or Tony Stewart in the car at 200 pounds and our car is at least 100 pounds heavier.

"I won't race against her until the IRL does something to take that advantage away."


And NASCAR eventually addressed it:

http://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/cu...us-driver-seat

According to the NASCAR rulebook, drivers who weigh less than 180 pounds have to add 10 pounds to their car for every 10 pounds down to 140. Therefore, the maximum penalty would be 40 pounds.

Patrick arrived at Daytona International Speedway weighing 110 pounds, according to her representatives. So theoretically, her car could have been 30 pounds lighter than the car driven by 150-pound Jeff Gordon, who qualified second.

Belz... 5th December 2017 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12102956)
If transwomen are allowed to compete athletically as women, it will effectively exclude ciswomen from athletic competition. Sure, there will probably always be some ciswomen on the team, as long as women's sport continues to exist, anyway. But they will be there as handmaidens to the transwomen who actually matter competitively.

I don't know if the 0.3% of trans people will really tip the balance that much, but it sure isn't fair _IF_ the trans woman has the build and hormones of a man.

theprestige 5th December 2017 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 12102963)
I imagine that sport sanctioning bodies may have to address the issue, but it isn't a question that will determine the fate of civilization.

It wasn't so long ago that the NASCAR driver Robby Gordon complained about the advantage that female drivers generally have over male drivers - less weight:

http://distributedrepublic.net/archi...women-drivers/

Gordon, a former open-wheel driver now in NASCAR, contends that Patrick is at an advantage over the rest of the competitors because she only weighs 100 pounds. Because all the cars weigh the same, Patrick's is lighter on the race track.

"The lighter the car, the faster it goes," Gordon said. "Do the math. Put her in the car at her weight, then put me or Tony Stewart in the car at 200 pounds and our car is at least 100 pounds heavier.

"I won't race against her until the IRL does something to take that advantage away."


And NASCAR eventually addressed it:

http://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/cu...us-driver-seat

According to the NASCAR rulebook, drivers who weigh less than 180 pounds have to add 10 pounds to their car for every 10 pounds down to 140. Therefore, the maximum penalty would be 40 pounds.

Patrick arrived at Daytona International Speedway weighing 110 pounds, according to her representatives. So theoretically, her car could have been 30 pounds lighter than the car driven by 150-pound Jeff Gordon, who qualified second.

If driver weight really mattered that much, car racing would have adopted the same strategy as horse racing.

Belz... 5th December 2017 11:57 AM

Aren't men stronger in order to steer the car? And what about lighter men?

crescent 5th December 2017 12:00 PM

It is similar to the issues surrounding Intersex people in top-level athletics.

The Caster Semenya debate

It is complicated but setting upper limits for testosterone levels in transgender female athletes is one possible solution.

I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage. There have been cases of men trying to present themselves as women to gain athletic advantage, but that is not at all the same thing as being transgender, just as wearing drag to a costume party does not make a man into a transgender woman.


ETA: Slate has the clearest writeup of the intersex athletics issue that I've seen:

Should Caster Semenya Be Allowed to Compete Against Women?

Quote:

At the center of this potential mess is South African track star Caster Semenya, a woman whom the New Yorker’s Ariel Levy described in a 2009 profile as “breathtakingly butch” with a torso “like the chest plate on a suit of armor.” Among athletes with intersex conditions, none is as prominent nor as magnificently gifted as Semenya. Seven years ago, while still a teenager, she destroyed her rivals in the 800 meters at the track and field world championships. Shortly thereafter, a clumsy, ad hoc, and supposedly secret assessment of Semenya’s true biological sex made its way into the press: She’d been found to have internal testes in place of a uterus and ovaries, as well as high levels of testosterone. Semenya addressed the controversy in early 2010: “I have been subjected to unwarranted and invasive scrutiny of the most intimate and private details of my being,” she said.
Biologically, a Transgender woman (with testes) on hormone therapy is probably very similar to an intersex person who may identify as either gender or no gender or whatever the person wants to identify as. A transgender woman who didn't begin hormone treatments until adulthood may still benefit from increased bone density, but the hormone treatments will prevent excessive muscle buildup. Testosterone is the key. I don't know what limits can or should be placed on testosterone levels for female athletes, but the simple fact that it can be measured suggests that there may be scientific answers to the dilemma of transgender or intersex women out-competing cis-gender non-intersex women in athletics.

BStrong 5th December 2017 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12102975)
If driver weight really mattered that much, car racing would have adopted the same strategy as horse racing.

It matters enough in motorcycle racing that most driver bios include both height and weight

American Flat Track singles division:

https://www.americanflattrack.com/standings

MotoGP:

http://www.motogp.com/en/riders/MotoGP/

BStrong 5th December 2017 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crescent (Post 12102986)
It is similar to the issues surrounding Intersex people in top-level athletics.

The Caster Semenya debate

It is complicated but setting upper limits for testosterone levels in transgender female athletes is one possible solution.

I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage. There have been cases of men trying to present themselves as women to gain athletic advantage, but that is not at all the same thing as being transgender, just as wearing drag to a costume party does not make a man into a transgender woman.

QFT

lobosrul5 5th December 2017 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 12102963)
I imagine that sport sanctioning bodies may have to address the issue, but it isn't a question that will determine the fate of civilization.

It wasn't so long ago that the NASCAR driver Robby Gordon complained about the advantage that female drivers generally have over male drivers - less weight:

I still cant post URL's

Gordon, a former open-wheel driver now in NASCAR, contends that Patrick is at an advantage over the rest of the competitors because she only weighs 100 pounds. Because all the cars weigh the same, Patrick's is lighter on the race track.

"The lighter the car, the faster it goes," Gordon said. "Do the math. Put her in the car at her weight, then put me or Tony Stewart in the car at 200 pounds and our car is at least 100 pounds heavier.

"I won't race against her until the IRL does something to take that advantage away."


And NASCAR eventually addressed it:

Blah blah URL

According to the NASCAR rulebook, drivers who weigh less than 180 pounds have to add 10 pounds to their car for every 10 pounds down to 140. Therefore, the maximum penalty would be 40 pounds.

Patrick arrived at Daytona International Speedway weighing 110 pounds, according to her representatives. So theoretically, her car could have been 30 pounds lighter than the car driven by 150-pound Jeff Gordon, who qualified second.

Wow... OK. First off lots of motorsports make a lighter driver carry ballast to even the playing field. However, by and large, it always has been, and always will, be an advantage in open wheel racing to be lighter and shorter. Secondly, if there is a very small man competing in IndyCar Gordon would refuse to compete?? And lastly, there is a long history of women competing in the Indy 500 even with Patrick excluded, including last year.

See List_of_female_Indianapolis_500_drivers on wikipedia

BStrong 5th December 2017 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argumemnon (Post 12102981)
Aren't men stronger in order to steer the car? And what about lighter men?

Purpose built racecars, whether open wheel or otherwise turn much easier than one would imagine. Rallying or off road racing is a entirely different proposition, as the drivers take about as much physical punishment during the course of a race as a professional boxer takes in 15 rounds.

lobosrul5 5th December 2017 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 12103009)
Purpose built racecars, whether open wheel or otherwise turn much easier than one would imagine. Rallying or off road racing is a entirely different proposition, as the drivers take about as much physical punishment during the course of a race as a professional boxer takes in 15 rounds.

F1 has power steering, Indy Car doesn't. It probably doesn't matter too much on ovals but a long race on a road course, and you bet arm strength will matter a huge amount. I've had sore arms just from karting!

BStrong 5th December 2017 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 12103017)
F1 has power steering, Indy Car doesn't. It probably doesn't matter too much on ovals but a long race on a road course, and you bet arm strength will matter a huge amount. I've had sore arms just from karting!

On track days on the bike (riding the usual three-four 20 minute sessions) I'd lose 10 Lbs over the course of the day and be glad to see my bed once I got home.

Armitage72 5th December 2017 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crescent (Post 12102986)
I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 12102995)
QFT



It's not unheard of to undergo major medical procedures for a performance edge. Don't you remember all of those runners who had their legs amputated so they could enjoy the same advantages as Oscar Pistorius?

theprestige 5th December 2017 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argumemnon (Post 12102970)
I don't know if the 0.3% of trans people will really tip the balance that much, but it sure isn't fair _IF_ the trans woman has the build and hormones of a man.

Doesn't take a lot. One transwoman weightlifter levels the playing field for all the ciswomen weightlifters. All the records become her records. Any woman who competes in the same tournaments or championships must accept second place as her highest aspiration. Any woman who competes in events without the transwoman must accept that their first place exists in her shadow.

Would it destroy women's sport if we let 0.3% of male athletes compete against them? I think probably, yeah it would.

theprestige 5th December 2017 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 12102993)
It matters enough in motorcycle racing that most driver bios include both height and weight

And yet it doesn't matter enough that drivers (riders?) are selected the same way as horse jockeys.

cullennz 5th December 2017 12:35 PM

As this becomes the norm due to precedent setting decisions and more transgender women there is basically a few of obvious outcomes that are going to happen IMO

A few trans-women may feel empowered an gain confidence in their own situation

A lot of people of all types including trans-women will think it is stupid due to the obvious unfair advantages transwomen have in these type of sports

It will discourage a lot of women from bothering to either chose these sports as a viable career option or even to enter the higher level competitions

Belz... 5th December 2017 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12103034)
Doesn't take a lot. One transwoman weightlifter levels the playing field for all the ciswomen weightlifters. All the records become her records. Any woman who competes in the same tournaments or championships must accept second place as her highest aspiration. Any woman who competes in events without the transwoman must accept that their first place exists in her shadow.

Would it destroy women's sport if we let 0.3% of male athletes compete against them? I think probably, yeah it would.

Assuming you're right, they should just eliminate the segregation of men and women in sports and let the best person man win.

lobosrul5 5th December 2017 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12103041)
And yet it doesn't matter enough that drivers (riders?) are selected the same way as horse jockeys.

Its a pretty damn big deal in some motorsports. I've heard 1 kg is worth .03 seconds per lap on the average F1 track. Doesn't sound like much but thats just about 2 seconds over the course of a race per kilo. Most drivers are smaller than average and I've heard stories of them starving themselves leading up to a race weekend.

Their height also matters the higher the drivers head the more drag.
The heavier the car the less the drivers weight will impact performance, and that goes even more so if your mostly drafting. So its not too critical for NASCAR for example.

rustypouch 5th December 2017 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage72 (Post 12103030)
It's not unheard of to undergo major medical procedures for a performance edge. Don't you remember all of those runners who had their legs amputated so they could enjoy the same advantages as Oscar Pistorius?

It wouldn't surprise me if certain countries, particularly Russia and China, forced some athletes to do this. Something similar to East Germany in the 70s and 80s.

cullennz 5th December 2017 12:40 PM

And Robby Gordon is a nobody driver from a nobody racing class he invented so he had a chance of winning and he still loses

What he thinks can be taken with a grain of salt

theprestige 5th December 2017 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12103047)
A few trans-women may feel empowered an gain confidence in their own situation

That would be delusional. A male athlete who competes against women to feel empowered and confident has even more serious problems than gender dysphoria.

BobTheCoward 5th December 2017 12:42 PM

As long as the sanctioning body is private, I don't care what they decide. That is for them to figure out.

lobosrul5 5th December 2017 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12103057)
As long as the sanctioning body is private, I don't care what they decide. That is for them to figure out.

If you mean Olympic sports, then pretty much every country has a government or government sponsored/endorsed sanctioning.

William Parcher 5th December 2017 12:50 PM

BTW, today's breaking news is that Russia has been banned from the Winter Olympics because of drugging.

BobTheCoward 5th December 2017 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 12103059)
If you mean Olympic sports, then pretty much every country has a government or government sponsored/endorsed sanctioning.

The ioc and iwf are non government.

But if they are government, then my policy
Prescription is stop being part of government. That resolves this issue.

lobosrul5 5th December 2017 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12103071)
The ioc and iwf are non government.

Most countries sanctioning bodies are though. The US is sort of an exception... but each sport has a sanctioning body that is officially recognized and endorsed to represent the USA on the world stage. So in a way they are.

BobTheCoward 5th December 2017 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 12103076)
Most countries sanctioning bodies are though. The US is sort of an exception... but each sport has a sanctioning body that is officially recognized and endorsed to represent the USA on the world stage. So in a way they are.

Then the solution to this problem is to scrap that system.

cullennz 5th December 2017 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12103067)
BTW, today's breaking news is that Russia has been banned from the Winter Olympics because of drugging.

They can still compete though

They just cant do it waving a Russian flag

And when one of the top nations in the medal table says "Independent" I think 99% of people will just think "Russia did well this year"

lobosrul5 5th December 2017 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12103080)
Then the solution to this problem is to scrap that system.

Just get rid of international sports competitions? OK.

BobTheCoward 5th December 2017 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 12103083)
Just get rid of international sports competitions? OK.

Get rid of any Government involvement.

cullennz 5th December 2017 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12103088)
Get rid of any Government involvement.

A lot of countries don't have a zillion multi-national corporates to fund the sports.

lobosrul5 5th December 2017 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12103092)
A lot of countries don't have a zillion multi-national corporates to fund the sports.

It even goes beyond that. I mean from what I can read, little if any government funds go into US Olympic sports. But we still organize tryouts, regulate the sport, form teams etc. Without that, then what? What would stop there being multiple US Womens Soccer teams? Is the first one to claim it, the one??

BobTheCoward 5th December 2017 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12103092)
A lot of countries don't have a zillion multi-national corporates to fund the sports.

The US also needs to scrap incorporation and limited liability.

BobTheCoward 5th December 2017 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 12103098)
It even goes beyond that. I mean from what I can read, little if any government funds go into US Olympic sports. But we still organize tryouts, regulate the sport, form teams etc. Without that, then what? What would stop there being multiple US Womens Soccer teams? Is the first one to claim it, the one??

It doesn't matter if there are multiple groups claiming to be the US team. It's fine.

William Parcher 5th December 2017 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12103082)
They can still compete though

They just cant do it waving a Russian flag

And when one of the top nations in the medal table says "Independent" I think 99% of people will just think "Russia did well this year"

A person from Russia can compete if they test clean and they cannot represent a country. They compete as "neutral" (they aren't using the term "independent").

Giz 5th December 2017 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12103102)
It doesn't matter if there are multiple groups claiming to be the US team. It's fine.

I think your version of the Olympics might be a little bloated and unwieldy.

I'd like you to run it though, as the Olympics are a bit of a bore.

Doghouse Reilly 5th December 2017 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 12102995)
QFT

We don't know. Right now to assert that they don't is simply an argument from incredulity. I have no opinion either way, but it is a mistake to underestimate the lengths to which people will go to achieve athletic success.


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