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-   -   How a seemingly respectable couple starved their toddler on a vegan diet (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336333)

Graham2001 11th May 2019 03:04 AM

How a seemingly respectable couple starved their toddler on a vegan diet
 
Quote:

The foster carer who took charge of a severely malnourished toddler fed an extreme vegan diet was appalled when she first saw the child in hospital.
'When I first met [the child] she was nearly two years old and looked like a three-month-old baby,' the mother-of-five told a court.


'She weighed 4.89kg and had no teeth. My own babies weighed over 4kg when they were born.


'She was lying in her hospital bed with tubes covering her tiny body. She was being fed by a tube through her nose.


'I remember thinking how terrifying this must be for such a small child.'


...


Her parents, who fed the girl a meagre vegan diet and did not have her immunised, have admitted failing to provide the child with the necessities of life and face a maximum five years in jail.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...ect/ar-AABcQG3


This is one of those cases where I hope the accused get the maximum number of years in jail.

casebro 11th May 2019 04:18 AM

Help me out here, I have a couple vegetarians in the family. There is a word I can't quite recall for people so concerned for eating only the "right stuff" that they get deficient. "Ortho Nutriants" ?

lionking 11th May 2019 04:25 AM

Scum. Deserve severe punishment.

IsThisTheLife 11th May 2019 05:07 AM

Despite what many might believe the issue of what constitutes a healthy diet for humans is far from settled, and this is in large part due to vested interests having obfuscated, and continuing to obfuscate it in the pursuit of profit, for example when it comes to fats (fatty acids).

It's suited food manufacturers very well to have plant oils hyped as "healthy" or "healthier" because by-and-large they're the cheapest and can thus be used to 'value add' to foods made with them. For e.g. check out the price of biscuits made with butter and run-of-the-mill ones. Butter has intrinsic value, i.e. is expensive, and thus food made with it is expensive and can't be readily 'value added'.

So, we have people believing implicitly that plant oils are intrinsically "healthy" and this contributes in large part to their believing that a vegetarian or even vegan diet is also "healthy".

They couldn't be more mistaken. Not only are omega unsaturates from animal sources simply unavailable from plants (the oils called by that name, such as linoleic acid, are NOT actually omega fats) but a case can be made that saturates, particularly medium-chain, are essential for human health. Fortunately the latter are available from plant sources, but only in the tropics, such as from coconut, which is c. 95% medium-chain saturates, much of which lauric acid which is also a major constituent of .... human breast milk.

The problems arise when you combine [wilful] ignorance and disinformation with ideology or even fanaticism, the latter two arguably characterising many or even most vegans, and certainly the case with these parents. They denied the evidence of their own eyes in favour of 'received wisdom' and their beliefs to the point that they nearly killed this poor child.

IsThisTheLife 11th May 2019 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 12691969)
Scum. Deserve severe punishment.

Your sig-line is most apposite for the subject.

Puppycow 11th May 2019 05:31 AM

Mammal babies need milk. Breast milk is best, but baby formula will do in a pinch. Even cow's milk (whole, not skim or reduced fat) is better than nothing probably. Not rice milk or soy milk or almond milk. Real milk.

I wonder if a vegan diet makes it difficult for a mother to produce enough breast milk?

Arcade22 11th May 2019 06:26 AM

There's a very similar case going on in Sweden right now. A couple who lived an "alternative wellness lifestyle", didn't register their child's birth (which they are legally required to do) and was "distrustful" of the Swedish authorities, fed their child a "vegan diet" consisting of breast-milk, brown rice, vegetables and fruit.

At the age of two their child was almost about to die from nutritional deficiencies when they were brought to the hospital, apparently only surviving because of the emergency response. The parents on the other hand maintain that their daughter had serious allergies and they had problems finding a appropriate diet for her, and that her issues were caused by gastroenteritis over 4 days. I should note here that it's not possible that to get nutritional deficiencies that are life threatening over 4 days.

The fathers motivation for not registering the child's birth was that "Because I believe that Sweden as a state should not be allowed to own her and take loans in her name". When questioned whether they received any nutritional supplements or anything similar he responded with: "No, nothing like that. She gets sunshine, laughter and hugs."

shemp 11th May 2019 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12691964)
Help me out here, I have a couple vegetarians in the family. There is a word I can't quite recall for people so concerned for eating only the "right stuff" that they get deficient. "Ortho Nutriants" ?

The medical term is "idiots."

Vixen 11th May 2019 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppycow (Post 12692007)
Mammal babies need milk. Breast milk is best, but baby formula will do in a pinch. Even cow's milk (whole, not skim or reduced fat) is better than nothing probably. Not rice milk or soy milk or almond milk. Real milk.

I wonder if a vegan diet makes it difficult for a mother to produce enough breast milk?

For many vegans, the issue is 'animal cruelty'. They avoid milk because they believe it means the milk-cow has to be kept constantly in a state of pregnancy in order to supply milk for commercial reasons.

Many vegans will eat free-range eggs as they can see no cruelty involved in this.

JoeMorgue 11th May 2019 07:02 AM

We dug this kid's grave when we let "Vegetarianism/Veganism" rebrand itself as a "lifestyle" instead of just an opinion.

If the kid had starved to death because his parents feed him only round food or only blue blue or only foods that being in "B" there's be nothing to argue, it would be death via neglect with no real possible place for the conversation to even go.

casebro 11th May 2019 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 12692072)
For many vegans, the issue is 'animal cruelty'. They avoid milk because they believe it means the milk-cow has to be kept constantly in a state of pregnancy in order to supply milk for commercial reasons.

Many vegans will eat free-range eggs as they can see no cruelty involved in this.

Bingo. Politics, not health.

Years ago my brother figured vegetarianism is like a religion- faith based, not science based. And you can't argue someone out of their religion.

My two sisters, 70 yo +/-, both w/ Masters, one a nurse, the other a Masters in sciencey stuff, went vegan a couple years ago. At least the nurse talked to a dietician who told her she needs more protein. Now she is a won't-eat-4-legged-animals- vegetarian. Seems very hypocritical to me.

I've always suspected vegetarianism to be rooted in blood phobia. It's the blood in the red meat, not the protein or fat. Animal rights is a justification.

IsThisTheLife 11th May 2019 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 12692072)
...

Many vegans will eat free-range eggs as they can see no cruelty involved in this.

Eh ... no, they won't. Some vegetarians do, but they're better referred to as ovo-vegetarians. Then there are 'lacto-vegetarians'. One could be a lacto-ovo-vegeratian. Then there are piscivorians. But a vegan is a vegan.

Checkmite 11th May 2019 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife (Post 12691991)
Despite what many might believe the issue of what constitutes a healthy diet for humans is far from settled, and this is in large part due to vested interests having obfuscated, and continuing to obfuscate it in the pursuit of profit, for example when it comes to fats (fatty acids).

This is why I wouldn't blame these parents for attempting to give their baby a "vegan" diet.

But when you have a two year old child that still looks three months old, that's willful obstinance in the face of indisputable evidence that you're wrong. And it didn't take two years before it was obvious, either.

I'm very worried for this kid. How many developmental milestones has she missed? By two years old she should be walking without help. I don't know whether in a situation like this, the schedule will "reset" and proceed like normal once she starts being cared for properly. I hope that's the case.

Skeptic Ginger 11th May 2019 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 12692196)
This is why I wouldn't blame these parents for attempting to give their baby a "vegan" diet.

But when you have a two year old child that still looks three months old, that's willful obstinance in the face of indisputable evidence that you're wrong. And it didn't take two years before it was obvious, either.

The key word here is not "vegan". The key word is "neglect". They neglected to properly feed the child. And yes they are to blame. Though chances are they need help for mental illness or for whatever the cause of the neglect (drug addicts maybe?).

This is not something a little milk or meat would have fixed/prevented. The child is not malnourished because they used soy milk instead of cow's milk.


And vegans are as likely to be interested in not over-consuming the world's resources as they are to be concerned about animal welfare. Higher up the food chain, food is more resource costly to produce.

Olmstead 11th May 2019 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12692084)
Bingo. Politics, not health.

Years ago my brother figured vegetarianism is like a religion- faith based, not science based. And you can't argue someone out of their religion.

My two sisters, 70 yo +/-, both w/ Masters, one a nurse, the other a Masters in sciencey stuff, went vegan a couple years ago. At least the nurse talked to a dietician who told her she needs more protein. Now she is a won't-eat-4-legged-animals- vegetarian. Seems very hypocritical to me.

I've always suspected vegetarianism to be rooted in blood phobia. It's the blood in the red meat, not the protein or fat. Animal rights is a justification.

Oh, come off it. There are several elite vegan athletes out there. Obviously, a vegan diet can provide everything a person needs, especially protein.

When a vegan gets sick, everyone points at their veganism. When a non-vegan gets sick, they just get sick. People prefer to read about vegan parents whose child was malnourished due to veganism than about parents that were simply terribly neglectful.

There's a ton of extremely healthy vegan children out there. And there's a ton of neglected children on "normal diets" that end up just as badly as the child in the article, but no one cares because that's just run-of-the-mill neglect.

JoeMorgue 11th May 2019 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife (Post 12692096)
Eh ... no, they won't. Some vegetarians do, but they're better referred to as ovo-vegetarians. Then there are 'lacto-vegetarians'. One could be a lacto-ovo-vegeratian. Then there are piscivorians. But a vegan is a vegan.

Or... radical idea here but every food preference doesn't require an identity.

I like crunchy peanut butter. I'm not a "CrunchyPeanutButterian" as if that somehow makes it something more then just an opinion about what food I want to eat.

Bob001 11th May 2019 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12692256)
Or... radical idea here but every food preference doesn't require an identity.

I like crunchy peanut butter. I'm not a "CrunchyPeanutButterian" as if that somehow makes it something more then just an opinion about what food I want to eat.

But"CrunchyPeanutButterian" would be an accurate title if crunchy peanut butter was all you ate. "Vegetarian," "ovo-vegetarian" etc. describe the restrictions that someone sets on what he will eat, not just his favorite foods.

Darat 11th May 2019 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 12692335)
But"CrunchyPeanutButterian" would be an accurate title if crunchy peanut butter was all you ate. "Vegetarian," "ovo-vegetarian" etc. describe the restrictions that someone sets on what he will eat, not just his favorite foods.

I'm more with JoeMorgue on this. People introduce themselves as a vegan, they will say "I am a vegan", for many people it is part of their identity rather than just a statement about what they will eat. I don't eat coconut or chillies but I don't introduce myself as "I am a non coconut and chillies eater". It isn't part of identity.

JoeMorgue 11th May 2019 03:58 PM

And that's the point I'm making that this horrible incident is influenced by veganism presenting itself as something more or greater then just a simple "Here's some foods I eat, here's some foods I don't eat."

Sideroxylon 11th May 2019 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12692256)
Or... radical idea here but every food preference doesn't require an identity.

I like crunchy peanut butter. I'm not a "CrunchyPeanutButterian" as if that somehow makes it something more then just an opinion about what food I want to eat.

Categories should and usually do have some sort of utility in human social practices. If you invited a friend for dinner and they told you they were a pollotarian it would enable you to serve a meal that they can serve and eat. It is not easy to eat narrow diets and these terms serve such purposes in the everyday lives of adherents.

Olmstead 11th May 2019 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12692466)
And that's the point I'm making that this horrible incident is influenced by veganism presenting itself as something more or greater then just a simple "Here's some foods I eat, here's some foods I don't eat."

Or maybe the horrible incident is influenced by her parents' being neglectful bastards and/or nutcases and the veganism is unrelated.

Elagabalus 11th May 2019 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12692466)
And that's the point I'm making that this horrible incident is influenced by veganism presenting itself as something more or greater then just a simple "Here's some foods I eat, here's some foods I don't eat."

Well, of course!! They're saving the ******* planet!!!

Graham2001 11th May 2019 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12692466)
And that's the point I'm making that this horrible incident is influenced by veganism presenting itself as something more or greater then just a simple "Here's some foods I eat, here's some foods I don't eat."


Anecdotally, I've heard of people who have taken up Veganism, looked at just how much they are spending on supplements, (Something that has been noted about the various types of vegetarianism all the way back to the 1970s.), worked out just how much meat they need to consume to stop purchasing the supplements (And it's not as much as you think.) and then announced to the world what they planned to do. The response, profound rejection, condemnation as if the person had committed a mortal sin.

Elagabalus 11th May 2019 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon (Post 12692481)
Categories should and usually do have some sort of utility in human social practices. If you invited a friend for dinner and they told you they were a pollotarian it would enable you to serve a meal that they can serve and eat. It is not easy to eat narrow diets and these terms serve such purposes in the everyday lives of adherents.

I don't care even if the guy IS a Marxist!!

Norman Alexander 11th May 2019 05:27 PM

I would be checking out the health of the parents. What are they doing to themselves if this is how a child is treated? If the parents want to starve themselves to death by willfully leaving out essential parts of their human diet due to whatever -ism they want to use to justify that, then that would be regrettable and insane but up to them. But in this case, they have willfully neglected the health of their own child. It doesn't matter what -ism they use to justify this. It's severely criminal.

deadrose 11th May 2019 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12691964)
Help me out here, I have a couple vegetarians in the family. There is a word I can't quite recall for people so concerned for eating only the "right stuff" that they get deficient. "Ortho Nutriants" ?

Believe you're looking for "orthorexic" and variants.

Chanakya 11th May 2019 08:40 PM

As some posters have pointed out, the veganism is incidental. What is key is the neglect. Crackpots subjecting their infant child to the Warrior Diet, for instance, would probably have led to a roughly similar outcome.

Focus on the crazy, not the veganism.

It's ... surprising, in a skeptics' forum, to find most people making this case an excuse for ranting off on vegans.

Sure, ranting about one's pet peeves is cathartic, and fun, but still.


(Before someone asks, or at least wonders: No, I'm not vegan myself.)

lionking 11th May 2019 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chanakya (Post 12692622)
As some posters have pointed out, the veganism is incidental. What is key is the neglect. Crackpots subjecting their infant child to the Warrior Diet, for instance, would probably have led to a roughly similar outcome.

Focus on the crazy, not the veganism.

It's ... surprising, in a skeptics' forum, to find most people making this case an excuse for ranting off on vegans.

Sure, ranting about one's pet peeves is cathartic, and fun, but still.


(Before someone asks, or at least wonders: No, I'm not vegan myself.)

Well said. One of my daughters is vegan, and she is disgusted with this couple, and equally annoyed that veganism is the focus of news reports.

Skeptic Ginger 11th May 2019 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12692466)
And that's the point I'm making that this horrible incident is influenced by veganism presenting itself as something more or greater then just a simple "Here's some foods I eat, here's some foods I don't eat."

No (or you agree with me and I'm misunderstanding your post).

If a black couple starved their child, would you blame it on their being black?

If some disturbed parents starved their child by only feeding it celery because they'd read that was a holistic diet, would you blame it on weird diet beliefs? No. It is specific to the disturbed parents.

Because though rare, it is not unheard of for mentally ill parents to starve their children 'accidentally'.


This doesn't have anything to do with veganism. It has to do with mentally ill parents.

Elagabalus 11th May 2019 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chanakya (Post 12692622)
As some posters have pointed out, the veganism is incidental. What is key is the neglect. Crackpots subjecting their infant child to the Warrior Diet, for instance, would probably have led to a roughly similar outcome.

Focus on the crazy, not the veganism.

It's ... surprising, in a skeptics' forum, to find most people making this case an excuse for ranting off on vegans.

Sure, ranting about one's pet peeves is cathartic, and fun, but still.


(Before someone asks, or at least wonders: No, I'm not vegan myself.)


Because vegans are never known to be crackpots. :rolleyes:



Quote:

Originally Posted by Elagabalus (Post 12657553)
Look up up 30 Bananas A Day and get back to me.*


TL;DR He's Australian everybody! What more can be said?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elagabalus (Post 12657821)
I don't know. Why would vegans eat their own? I mean, they're vegans right?

The aforementioned 30 Bananas a Day A.K.A. "Durianrider" in some kind of vegan dustup.

http://anthonycolpo.com/anthony-colp...police-part-1/

Just the first couple of paras if need be.

Veganism explained. Sort of.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


fuelair 11th May 2019 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham2001 (Post 12691939)
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...ect/ar-AABcQG3


This is one of those cases where I hope the accused get the maximum number of years in jail.

And the maximum is life in solitary.

Skeptic Ginger 11th May 2019 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmstead (Post 12692485)
Or maybe the horrible incident is influenced by her parents' being neglectful bastards and/or nutcases and the veganism is unrelated.

This ^

Skeptic Ginger 11th May 2019 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chanakya (Post 12692622)
As some posters have pointed out, the veganism is incidental. What is key is the neglect. Crackpots subjecting their infant child to the Warrior Diet, for instance, would probably have led to a roughly similar outcome.

Focus on the crazy, not the veganism.

It's ... surprising, in a skeptics' forum, to find most people making this case an excuse for ranting off on vegans.

Sure, ranting about one's pet peeves is cathartic, and fun, but still.


(Before someone asks, or at least wonders: No, I'm not vegan myself.)

And this ^

Skeptic Ginger 11th May 2019 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elagabalus (Post 12692633)
Because vegans are never known to be crackpots. :rolleyes:

That straw man simply doesn't follow.

Chanakya 11th May 2019 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elagabalus (Post 12692633)
Because vegans are never known to be crackpots. :rolleyes:

Complete the thought please, Elagabalus. Think a moment, then frame that full sentence (or as many sentences as it takes), to include that quoted portion, and complete the thought you're wanting to convey.

I'm guessing you'll probably end up agreeing with me if you do that. :---)

Elagabalus 11th May 2019 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12692641)
That straw man simply doesn't follow.

Cry me a river in the Crimea, SG. Did you read the links? Look up 30 Bananas a day on youtube. I dare yah!

Skeptic Ginger 11th May 2019 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elagabalus (Post 12692645)
Cry me a river in the Crimea, SG. Did you read the links? Look up 30 Bananas a day on youtube. I dare yah!

Apparently you don't understand why your post is a straw man.

Who said vegans are never crackpots? No one. You've made up an argument no one has made and you are arguing that point.

Sideroxylon 11th May 2019 10:56 PM

I know its a bit controversial here but choices to not include meat in your diet can be well reasoned choices that may take factors like environment, climate change and animal welfare into consideration.

Since diet and nutrition is a specialist field it should not be embarked on alone but experts consulted, especially when it comes to people in our care.

Sideroxylon 11th May 2019 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12692659)
Apparently you don't understand why your post is a straw man.

Who said vegans are never crackpots? No one. You've made up an argument no one has made and you are arguing that point.

Surprising how often you feel the need for simple Venn diagrams around here.

Roboramma 11th May 2019 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 12692625)
Well said. One of my daughters is vegan, and she is disgusted with this couple, and equally annoyed that veganism is the focus of news reports.

Yeah, this.


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