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-   -   Rape victim to pay child support to her rapist (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359636)

Matthew Best 14th June 2022 10:27 AM

Rape victim to pay child support to her rapist
 
Man, 30, rapes girl, 16, who gets pregnant and has a baby.

16 years later, man sues for custody of the child and is granted it. The mother (Abelseth) is forced to pay man's legal fees and contribute child support to him.

"He's well connected," Abelseth said. "He's threatened me multiple times, saying he has connections in the justice system, so I better be careful and he can take her away anytime he wants to. I didn't believe him until it happened."

Now child rapist has custody of child who is the same age as his last (known) victim. Something about this seems wrong, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

https://www.wbrz.com/news/investigat...child-support/

Thermal 14th June 2022 11:02 AM

This is in modern day Louisianna, USA? What in the ever loving ****!?!?!? There has got to be some seriously criminal complacency going on at various levels of government to pull this kind of travesty off. Who is this rapist?

TheGoldcountry 14th June 2022 11:03 AM

There's a lot I don't understand about this (the writing is all over the place,) but the father was given full custody because of a cell phone? I feel we're missing about 90% of what that's about.

As far as ignoring the rape goes, it (horribly) seems par for the course nowadays. Unless a woman shows up beat to hell at the hospital, someone will find a way to "wahtabout" it to death.

Jesus I'm glad I don't live in that area of the country. I'm especially glad I don't have any female loved ones who do.

Warp12 14th June 2022 11:12 AM

From the article:

Quote:

This story dates back decades and involves a woman who was raped at the age of 16 by a man almost twice her age

Only, there is no proof she was raped, right? They keep claiming she was raped by this man, but was he ever charged and convicted? I know she filed something of a report 10 years later, but I don't see how they can call him a rapist? I would think that could land them in some hot water?

Also, how did he "find out" about the child? That seems odd, unless they had some sort of continuing relationship, or he was stalking her?

Yeah, a lot is missing in this story.

shemp 14th June 2022 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry (Post 13833003)
There's a lot I don't understand about this (the writing is all over the place,) but the father was given full custody because of a cell phone? I feel we're missing about 90% of what that's about.

When I saw the OP, I thought that this must be some third world country, but no, it's freaking Louisiana! Now I'm less surprised.

I agree, there's got to be a lot missing here, but still, unless she's got a criminal record and has had lots of run-ins with the child services people, I find this hard to understand.

Matthew Best 14th June 2022 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833018)
From the article:




Only, there is no proof she was raped, right? They keep claiming she was raped by this man, but was he ever charged and convicted? I know she filed something of a report 10 years later, but I don't see how they can call him a rapist?

The story says that as she was 16 when the baby was conceived, then the sex was illegal. I am unfamiliar with the age of consent in Louisiana - perhaps someone who is can chime in? If that's the case then it was rape by definition, as someone under the age of consent cannot consent to sex.

Warp12 14th June 2022 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Best (Post 13833023)
The story says that as she was 16 when the baby was conceived, then the sex was illegal. I am unfamiliar with the age of consent in Louisiana - perhaps someone who is can chime in? If that's the case then it was rape by definition, as someone under the age of consent cannot consent to sex.


Her claim isn't statutory rape, though. Neither is that what the article is saying occurred. So, I am saying, he hasn't been charged, and he hasn't been convicted of any crime, but they are labeling him a rapist in the most egregious manner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape

No doubt they need to pursue the case. But even with him fathering the child, I suspect there are a lot of possible outcomes besides a rape conviction.

JoeMorgue 14th June 2022 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833018)
Only, there is no proof she was raped, right?

Yep just the word of a "Split Tail." Women are always lying about that.

Thermal 14th June 2022 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833025)
Her claim isn't statutory rape, though. Neither is that what the article is saying occurred. So, I am saying, he hasn't been charged, and he hasn't been convicted of any crime, but they are labeling him a rapist in the most egregious manner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape

No doubt they need to pursue the case. But even with him fathering the child, I suspect there are a lot of possible outcomes besides a rape conviction.

Hardly seems to matter, does it? 30 yr old bangs a tennybopper at that time, yeah that's a rape, statutory or no. She says it was rape pretty deadpan, with no further description, so it could have been consensual on her part at the time. But it doesn't matter. Bang a little girl when you're a full grown man, that's the dice you rolled. If he doesn't like the label, he could have stuck with grown-ups.

Warp12 14th June 2022 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13833030)
Hardly seems to matter, does it? 30 yr old bangs a tennybopper at that time, yeah that's a rape, statutory or no. She says it was rape pretty deadpan, with no further description, so it could have been consensual on her part at the time. But it doesn't matter. Bang a little girl when you're a full grown man, that's the dice you rolled. If he doesn't like the label, he could have stuck with grown-ups.


There are other possibilities.

First, she may have represented that she was older. What if, and who knows, he took her home from an establishment that didn't allow those under 18? Did she commonly use an illegitimate ID? And then, on top of that, it could have been consensual.

So, yeah, I'd say the fact that the report was submitted 10 years after-the-fact, and that there are no pending charges or conviction, probably influences whether we can justifiably call this man a rapist at this point.

JoeMorgue 14th June 2022 11:47 AM

Yes it's a decade long con game to pay *checks notes* be the one that has to pay child support. Surely a criminal mastermind.

CIVIL DEBATE everyone.

Thermal 14th June 2022 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833035)
There are other possibilities.

First, she may have represented that she was older. What if, and who knows, he took her home from an establishment that didn't allow those under 18? Did she commonly use an illegitimate ID? And then, on top of that, it could have been consensual.

So, yeah, I'd say the fact that the report was submitted 10 years after-the-fact, and that there are no pending charges or conviction, probably influences whether we can justifiably call this man a rapist at this point.

When I was in my teens and early 20's, age was like a serious consideration at any meeting with a new lass. Like, not a trivial concern, and I was no genius. Any 30 yr old has no excuse when sniffing on a teen except that he doesn't give a ****.

But he did give a **** anyway, and an unprotected one at that. The rapist label fits fine.

casebro 14th June 2022 11:55 AM

Got to wonder what kind of mother the 32 year old mom has been.

And/or, at 16 courts give credence to the child's choice.

Warp12 14th June 2022 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13833045)
When I was in my teens and early 20's, age was like a serious consideration at any meeting with a new lass. Like, not a trivial concern, and I was no genius. Any 30 yr old has no excuse when sniffing on a teen except that he doesn't give a ****.

But he did give a **** anyway, and an unprotected one at that. The rapist label fits fine.


It's not against the law to have sex with 18-year olds, is it? This is the sort of thing that could reasonably be expected to happen in exactly the scenario I described. And I seriously doubt you would see a rape conviction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833035)
There are other possibilities.

First, she may have represented that she was older. What if, and who knows, he took her home from an establishment that didn't allow those under 18? Did she commonly use an illegitimate ID? And then, on top of that, it could have been consensual.

So, yeah, I'd say the fact that the report was submitted 10 years after-the-fact, and that there are no pending charges or conviction, probably influences whether we can justifiably call this man a rapist at this point.


On top of that, yeah, we can't go around labeling people as criminals when they actually haven't been proven as such.

shuttlt 14th June 2022 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Best (Post 13833023)
The story says that as she was 16 when the baby was conceived, then the sex was illegal. I am unfamiliar with the age of consent in Louisiana - perhaps someone who is can chime in? If that's the case then it was rape by definition, as someone under the age of consent cannot consent to sex.

16 is legal in Alabama.
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.co...-rape-laws.htm

TomB 14th June 2022 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833025)
Her claim isn't statutory rape, though. Neither is that what the article is saying occurred. So, I am saying, he hasn't been charged, and he hasn't been convicted of any crime, but they are labeling him a rapist in the most egregious manner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape

No doubt they need to pursue the case. But even with him fathering the child, I suspect there are a lot of possible outcomes besides a rape conviction.

Assuming the article is correct in her age when it happened, which should be obvious from the date of the child's birth, then by definition this was statutory rape. I'll assume that the age of consent has been stable in Louisiana for the past 17 years:
Quote:

Louisiana

The age of consent in Louisiana is 17.

§ 80. Felony carnal knowledge of a juvenile

A. Felony carnal knowledge of a juvenile is committed when: (1) A person who is seventeen years of age or older has sexual intercourse, with consent, with a person who is thirteen years of age or older but less than seventeen years of age, when the victim is not the spouse of the offender and when the difference between the age of the victim and the age of the offender is four years or greater; or ...[172]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_o...ates#Louisiana

Given the empirical evidence, I don't think anyone is taking a risk in calling him a rapist. Now, she states that it was not consensual sex, and therefore forced or coerced rape. But that is immaterial. Even is she is lying about that, he is still guilty of (felony) statutory rape. The child is empirical proof of that fact.

The problems with this case have nothing to do with the use of the term "rapist." Other than the POS himself, the police taking no action on an open and shut case in seven years. And, yes, it is open and shut, at least on the stautory part of it. Louisiana does not allow the Mistake of Age Defense:
Quote:

Mistake as to the Child's Age

In Louisiana, as in most states, it is not a defense to a charge of carnal knowledge of a juvenile, aggravated rape, indecent behavior with a juvenile, or sexual battery that the defendant did not know that the child was underage. This is so even if the child lied about his or her age or looked older. (La. Rev. Stat. Ann. §§ 14:42, 14:43.1, 14:80, 14:80.1 14:81 (2018).)
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.co...-rape-laws.htm

Now, does that mean that she is a good mother? No. But it does mean that it is a factual statement that custody was given to a rapist of a child that was conceived during that rape.

TomB 14th June 2022 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuttlt (Post 13833050)

This happened in Louisiana. Hammond, Louisiana.

The age of consent in Alabama is irrelevant.

Warp12 14th June 2022 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomB (Post 13833061)
Assuming the article is correct in her age when it happened, which should be obvious from the date of the child's birth, then by definition this was statutory rape. I'll assume that the age of consent has been stable in Louisiana for the past 17 years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_o...ates#Louisiana

Given the empirical evidence, I don't think anyone is taking a risk in calling him a rapist. Now, she states that it was not consensual sex, and therefore forced or coerced rape. But that is immaterial. Even is she is lying about that, he is still guilty of (felony) statutory rape. The child is empirical proof of that fact.

The problems with this case have nothing to do with the use of the term "rapist." Other than the POS himself, the police taking no action on an open and shut case in seven years. And, yes, it is open and shut, at least on the stautory part of it. Louisiana does not allow the Mistake of Age Defense:

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.co...-rape-laws.htm

Now, does that mean that she is a good mother? No. But it does mean that it is a factual statement that custody was given to a rapist of a child that was conceived during that rape.


As stated previously:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833035)
There are other possibilities.

First, she may have represented that she was older. What if, and who knows, he took her home from an establishment that didn't allow those under 18? Did she commonly use an illegitimate ID? And then, on top of that, it could have been consensual.

So, yeah, I'd say the fact that the report was submitted 10 years after-the-fact, and that there are no pending charges or conviction, probably influences whether we can justifiably call this man a rapist at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833048)
It's not against the law to have sex with 18-year olds, is it? This is the sort of thing that could reasonably be expected to happen in exactly the scenario I described. And I seriously doubt you would see a rape conviction.

...

On top of that, yeah, we can't go around labeling people as criminals when they actually haven't been proven as such.


TomB 14th June 2022 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833048)
It's not against the law to have sex with 18-year olds, is it? This is the sort of thing that could reasonably be expected to happen in exactly the scenario I described. And I seriously doubt you would see a rape conviction.

In most states, including Louisiana, it is still statutory rape even if you thought they were older. Even if they lied about their age.


Quote:


On top of that, yeah, we can't go around labeling people as criminals when they actually haven't been proven as such.
In this case, proof of paternity is proof of rape.

TomB 14th June 2022 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833071)
As stated previously:

If you had read what I posted, you would know that your scenario is irrelevant.
She could have lied her ass off and provided fake ID. He would still be considered guilty of statutory rape in Louisiana.

Warp12 14th June 2022 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomB (Post 13833073)
If you had read what I posted, you would know that your scenario is irrelevant.
She could have lied her ass off and provided fake ID. He would still be considered guilty of statutory rape in Louisiana.


I read it and found it unconvincing.

Show me that outcome in court. Because if a man takes all reasonable precautions to verify age, including an ID check, and is deliberately misled, he should not be found guilty of rape.

If he is, that is the real crime.

Brainster 14th June 2022 12:46 PM

The story says that sometime around when her daughter was 5 years old the father pursued and won 50/50 custody. So presumably the daughter has been living with him half the time for something like 11 years. Really the only part that she seems unhappy with is having to pay child support.

Matthew Best 14th June 2022 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brainster (Post 13833081)
The story says that sometime around when her daughter was 5 years old the father pursued and won 50/50 custody. So presumably the daughter has been living with him half the time for something like 11 years. Really the only part that she seems unhappy with is having to pay child support.

She filed charges seven years ago, which precedes the award of child support.

johnny karate 14th June 2022 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brainster (Post 13833081)
The story says that sometime around when her daughter was 5 years old the father pursued and won 50/50 custody. So presumably the daughter has been living with him half the time for something like 11 years. Really the only part that she seems unhappy with is having to pay child support.

She doesn't seem too thrilled about the rape, either.

pgwenthold 14th June 2022 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomB (Post 13833072)
In most states, including Louisiana, it is still statutory rape even if you thought they were older. Even if they lied about their age.

Statutory rape is one where your belief is irrelevant.

She could produce a birth certificate showing that she was 18 and a voter ID card, but if it shown later to be fake, you are still guilty.

Warp12 14th June 2022 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 13833137)
Statutory rape is one where your belief is irrelevant.

She could produce a birth certificate showing that she was 18 and a voter ID card, but if it shown later to be fake, you are still guilty.


Not in every state. For example, CA:

Quote:

For example, if you reasonably believed that the victim was age 18 or older, you have a defense to the crime of statutory rape. Under CALCRIM 1072, the prosecution is tasked with the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that you did not “reasonably and actually believe that the other person was at least 18 years old.” This means that if you can show evidence that the alleged victim claimed he or she was 18 or older or if the circumstances led you to believe that was true, you have a valid defense to statutory rape charges.

So, if witnesses can testify that the alleged victim showed a fake ID to get into a bar where you met him or her, that is evidence that would lead you to reasonably believe the other person was an adult.

Now, I read the LA law in question. It does say that not knowing the person's age is not a defense. But I would think that the way people are sentenced and penalized would take this into account, or perhaps even impact the charges brought forth. This case is right on the borderline of such charges as it is, with the age of consent being 17 (assuming it was the same as current law).

And as I said earlier, if a man does everything reasonable to verify age of consent before engaging in consensual sex, and is then convicted of rape, he is the victim...imo.

I don't know how any reasonable person could see it any other way.

Warp12 14th June 2022 02:15 PM

Another point of interest is that the article says she was 16 "at the time of conception". Is this just a claim, or verified fact?

Did she give birth then, at 17? Is there any possibility that she was actually 17 (presumed age of consent) when the child was conceived? This could be cut and dry to prove, or it could be very questionable depending on her full age when she gave birth.

So again, plenty of questions in the case.

Thermal 14th June 2022 02:17 PM

If you guys could find it in your trolly hearts to stop trolling Warp12 (while complaining forum wide about getting rid of trolls), there is the little matter of a particularly horrendous series of travesties here?

This guy raped the girl. DNA and date of the child's birth date put this beyond dispute. So how does he gain custody? How unfit a mother could she possibly be for the court to award custody to a man under "active" investigation for raping her?

Is the smart money on him having major friends in high places? His line of work seems pretty pedestrian for that level of influence.

Warp12 14th June 2022 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13833183)
This guy raped the girl. DNA and date of the child's birth date put this beyond dispute.


Are we certain of this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833179)
Another point of interest is that the article says she was 16 "at the time of conception". Is this just a claim, or verified fact?

Did she give birth then, at 17? Is there any possibility that she was actually 17 (presumed age of consent) when the child was conceived? This could be cut and dry to prove, or it could be very questionable depending on her full age when she gave birth.

So again, plenty of questions in the case.


So, while I'm all for investigating her claims, which should have been done long ago, I'm just saying there are a lot of unanswered questions.

Warp12 14th June 2022 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13833183)
Is the smart money on him having major friends in high places? His line of work seems pretty pedestrian for that level of influence.


I doubt that is the case. I bet it is something more mundane...like misrepresented facts in the article, general incompetence, or significant information that is not being conveyed.

The article is written in a manner to generate outrage, not seriously analyze the details of the case.

johnny karate 14th June 2022 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833196)
Are we certain of this?

So, while I'm all for investigating her claims, I'm just saying there are a lot of unanswered questions.

That’s just one “unanswered question”.

And it’s actually not unanswered or a question.

You’re just choosing to not believe the information that’s been provided.

Thermal 14th June 2022 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833196)
Are we certain of this?

Unless there is a massive, game changing math error that somehow got by everyone involved, we should accept it as fact. Twould be a rather massive bald faced lie to hinge the main factor on an easily disproved calendar consultation.

Should it turn out to be "whoopsie, math error", I do so solemnly swear never to give benefit of the doubt to reporting again.

Quote:

So, while I'm all for investigating her claims, I'm just saying there are a lot of unanswered questions.
Agreed. The story is so off-the-wall that it's hard to believe it could possibly happen. I'm riding on this guy being some kind of incredible puppet master, or the woman having a violent or neglectful history that wasn't mentioned. Not victim blaming, but trying to figure out some plausible way this could have gone down.

johnny karate 14th June 2022 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833205)
I doubt that is the case. I bet it is something more mundane...like misrepresented facts in the article, general incompetence, or significant information that is not being conveyed.

The article is written in a manner to generate outrage, not seriously analyze the details of the case.

Yes, the idea of the police not doing their jobs is so far-fetched.

There certainly haven’t been any catastrophic examples of police incompetence recently that I can think of…

Thermal 14th June 2022 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13833205)
I doubt that is the case. I bet it is something more mundane...like misrepresented facts in the article, general incompetence, or significant information that is not being conveyed.

The article is written in a manner to generate outrage, not seriously analyze the details of the case.

Ok, I'll agree that the story is presented to prompt sharpening pitchforks. But that makes it all the worse for the woman if she is found to be deceptive, no?

Thermal 14th June 2022 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13833212)
Yes, the idea of the police not doing their jobs is so far-fetched.

There certainly haven’t been any catastrophic examples of police incompetence recently that I can think of…

This is more than just police, though. Family court and ripping a child out of the care of her mother is no rubber stamp procedure.

Warp12 14th June 2022 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13833222)
This is more than just police, though. Family court and ripping a child out of the care of her mother is no rubber stamp procedure.


I'm saying, there have to be more details. And significant ones. And I bet they aren't related to the accused guy having massive sway in the justice system.

johnny karate 14th June 2022 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13833222)
This is more than just police, though. Family court and ripping a child out of the care of her mother is no rubber stamp procedure.

Hard to believe that this is taking place in a society that has always placed such a high value on protecting women and victims of sexual violence.

Thermal 14th June 2022 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13833229)
Hard to believe that this is taking place in a society that has always placed such a high value on protecting women and victims of sexual violence.

Yeah, I hear that. But taking a child from her custody after she raised her for 16 years? That's unicorn stuff, unless the woman had more than a nodding acquaintance with police and DYFS. And come on- to her demonstrable rapist???

johnny karate 14th June 2022 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13833242)
Yeah, I hear that. But taking a child from her custody after she raised her for 16 years? That's unicorn stuff, unless the woman had more than a nodding acquaintance with police and DYFS. And come on- to her demonstrable rapist???

It's a small, Southern town. He's a white dude with connections in law enforcement. Not only is it not outside of the realm of possibility, it isn't even surprising.

Do you remember a couple of years ago when a Black guy was murdered in Georgia and the local cops and DA weren't going to do anything about it?

How is this any more far-fetched than that?

Warp12 14th June 2022 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13833220)
Ok, I'll agree that the story is presented to prompt sharpening pitchforks. But that makes it all the worse for the woman if she is found to be deceptive, no?


Well, it could make it worse...or she just may be in a place in her life where she has nothing else to lose. We really don't know.

But seeing the number of gaps in the story, and the emotional way it is written, doesn't give me a lot of faith in any of the information presented.


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