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-   -   Split Thread: The Uvalde Shooting and responses to it (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359791)

shemp 19th June 2022 12:12 PM

The Uvalde Shooting and responses to it
 
The classrooms the Uvalde shooter barricaded himself in may not have been locked, but even if they were, police had a tool that would have opened them: report


Quote:

A law enforcement source said Uvalde police didn't try to open the door to the room in which the shooter was barricaded.

The source told the San Antonio Express-News that if the door was locked, police had a tool to pry it open.

Uvalde police have received ongoing scrutiny for their response to the May 24 shooting that resulted in 21 deaths.

Uvalde police didn't check to see if the door to the two connected classrooms the Robb Elementary shooter barricaded himself in with children was unlocked, a source close to the investigation told the San Antonio Express-News.

The Texas Department of Public Safety previously said that the doors locked from the inside. But after viewing surveillance footage, investigators believed the doors may have not been able to be locked from the inside due to a malfunction, the source the Express-News.

If the doors were in fact locked, police had access to a halligan bar, a forcible entry tool shaped like a crowbar that could have opened the door, the source said.
Mod Info I've taken the liberty of copying these more recent posts to a new thread as the police response to this is now key to the event and it's worthy of its own thread


Split from [Continuation] Today's Mass Shooting (2)

feel free to quote from the parent thread
Posted By:jimbob

Max_mang 20th June 2022 01:39 PM

"Uvalde has hired a private law firm in an effort to suppress body camera footage and other records surrounding the mass shooting, Motherboard reported last week. In a letter, the city’s private lawyer argued it should be exempted from releasing records in part because they include “highly embarrassing information” and may cause “emotional/mental distress.”"

https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy7z...shooter-report

The Great Zaganza 20th June 2022 08:10 PM

It's become obvious that the reason why the Uvalde police failed so miserably is not because they have not enough cops, but too many cops: with multiple law enforcement agencies in a tiny town, no one was even clear on who would be in charge.

Checkmite 21st June 2022 10:17 AM

During a press conference today the Texas DPS stated that video evidence shows Uvalde and school police never tried the door handles on the classrooms occupied by the gunman to see if they were locked - which they definitely weren't, because evidently the doors can't be locked from the inside.

Link

JoeMorgue 21st June 2022 10:20 AM

The "Thin Blue Line" is looking pretty ******* thin right now. Like it's only got one dimension at this point.

Captain_Swoop 21st June 2022 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 13838279)
During a press conference today the Texas DPS stated that video evidence shows Uvalde and school police never tried the door handles on the classrooms occupied by the gunman to see if they were locked - which they definitely weren't, because evidently the doors can't be locked from the inside.

Link

Forbidden!

Garrison 21st June 2022 11:09 AM

BBC article on the police response at Uvalde that just gets worse the more information comes out:

Uvalde shooting: Gunman could have been stopped within three minutes - safety official

Random 21st June 2022 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13838323)
BBC article on the police response at Uvalde that just gets worse the more information comes out:

Uvalde shooting: Gunman could have been stopped within three minutes - safety official

Yeah, we are about five revelations away from finding out there was no shooter and the whole thing was a wrong-address SWAT raid that went way off the rails…

jimbob 21st June 2022 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13838306)
Forbidden!

Likewise but

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/21/u...nse/index.html

Skeptic Ginger 21st June 2022 03:13 PM

I can't stand to hear the news about this today. How absolutely heartbreaking.

dudalb 21st June 2022 03:26 PM

How the hell are the people in charge at Uvalde still in their jobs?
God, I hate Texas. Just one piece of idiocy after another.

Dr.Sid 21st June 2022 03:59 PM

(Stolen) .. The next song goes to brave servants at the Uvalde Police Department ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r679Hhs9Zs

shemp 21st June 2022 07:56 PM

And it gets worse:

Police officer husband of slain Uvalde teacher detained, disarmed after he tried to save his wife

Quote:

AUSTIN (KWTX) - Texas Department of Public Safety Director Steven McCraw on Tuesday told state lawmakers the police response to the massacre at Robb Elementary in Uvalde, Texas on May 24 was an “abject failure.”

McCraw told the state senate that police at the scene had enough officers and firepower to have stopped the gunman three minutes after he entered the building, and they would have found the door to the classroom where he was holed up was unlocked if they had bothered to check it.

McCraw also revealed the husband of slain elementary teacher Eva Mireles, identified as Uvalde CISD Police Officer Ruben Ruiz, tried to save her but officers in the school prevented him from doing so.

McCraw said the teacher called her husband shortly after the gunman attacked her classroom and told him “she had been shot and was dying.”

“(Ruiz) tried to move forward into the hallway,” McCraw said. “He was detained and they took his gun away from him and escorted him off the scene.”

McCraw did not reveal which agency removed Ruiz from school grounds.

lomiller 21st June 2022 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13838537)
How the hell are the people in charge at Uvalde still in their jobs?
God, I hate Texas. Just one piece of idiocy after another.

Sadly, in the absence of relevant State laws, police in the US don't have a duty to protect or help anyone. Texas has no such law so there probably isn't even a valid civil case let alone a criminal one.

Babbylonian 21st June 2022 09:27 PM

It's not just the cops at this point. The whole city government are circling the wagons in order to preserve their power. They know exactly how short the distance is between blaming the cops and blaming the people who hired the cops.

There's something corrupt as hell going on.

The Great Zaganza 21st June 2022 09:30 PM

it's fear, pure and simple.
Cops make it a point to retaliate against individual people who dare to attempt to reduce their budget or hold them to account for anything.
City Officials are not paid enough to trade an attempt to take the PD down a peg for lifelong harassment of them and their families.

Craig4 22nd June 2022 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 13838664)
It's not just the cops at this point. The whole city government are circling the wagons in order to preserve their power. They know exactly how short the distance is between blaming the cops and blaming the people who hired the cops.

There's something corrupt as hell going on.

I don't know about the whole city government. From the linked article above, the mayor seems to be on the war path.

SteveAitch 22nd June 2022 01:29 AM

And now the school is to be demolished.

Plus some bi-partisan gun control legislation may happen. Though what effect it will have is open to discussion as it doesn't seem to affect current gun owners.

Segnosaur 22nd June 2022 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveAitch (Post 13838740)

When they rebuild the school they can save money by putting only one door in. It will be much safer too.

(Sarcasm intended)

Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk

Brainster 22nd June 2022 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveAitch (Post 13838740)
And now the school is to be demolished.

Plus some bi-partisan gun control legislation may happen. Though what effect it will have is open to discussion as it doesn't seem to affect current gun owners.

Biden talked about demolishing the school when he visited; they tore down Sandy Hook Elementary afterwards and there are plans to demolish the building at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High when the shooter's trial there is finally completed. There is even discussion of tearing down Columbine High because it has become something of a morbid tourist attraction.

The Great Zaganza 22nd June 2022 11:37 AM

as long as the cost of rebuilding comes out of the police budget...

jimbob 22nd June 2022 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13839143)
as long as the cost of rebuilding comes out of the police budget...

I'm starting to think it should come out of that *after* their pension fund.

dudalb 22nd June 2022 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13839143)
as long as the cost of rebuilding comes out of the police budget...

That might wipe out the police budget.
But then you seem to want to get rid of the police altogether.
Don't get me wrong, I think the whole police force in Uvalde should be fired and a new one built from the ground up.
But you will never convince me that police are somehow unesscary.
And you seem to , franky, have a real hatred for them that goes way beyond ligitimate criticism.

The Great Zaganza 22nd June 2022 01:13 PM

If you believe at all in Fiscal Responsibility, most US PDs should get gutted to the bone.

Never before have so many Americans been so happy to shovel so much money into a part of the State that year to year provides lesa and less of what they are supposed to do.
One look at the process rate of Rape Kits proves that most PDs are not interested in actually solving crimes.

dudalb 22nd June 2022 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13839220)
If you believe at all in Fiscal Responsibility, most US PDs should get gutted to the bone.

Never before have so many Americans been so happy to shovel so much money into a part of the State that year to year provides lesa and less of what they are supposed to do.
One look at the process rate of Rape Kits proves that most PDs are not interested in actually solving crimes.

I repeat: You either have a police force or you have Vigilante Justice. No other options.
You seem to hate the very idea of a police force.
That might go over big in left wing discussion circles, but among most Amereicans, not so much.
One of the reasons "Progressive" have political difficluties is they seem to have no idea how dumb a lot of their rhetoric sounds to people who are not the political left.

autumn1971 22nd June 2022 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13839257)
I repeat: You either have a police force or you have Vigilante Justice. No other options.
You seem to hate the very idea of a police force.
That might go over big in left wing discussion circles, but among most Amereicans, not so much.
One of the reasons "Progressive" have political difficluties is they seem to have no idea how dumb a lot of their rhetoric sounds to people who are not the political left.

Nothing in the quoted post supports your wild accusation

Captain_Swoop 22nd June 2022 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13839202)
That might wipe out the police budget.
But then you seem to want to get rid of the police altogether.
Don't get me wrong, I think the whole police force in Uvalde should be fired and a new one built from the ground up.
But you will never convince me that police are somehow unesscary.
And you seem to , franky, have a real hatred for them that goes way beyond ligitimate criticism.

Because it seems that they are all *****.

Captain_Swoop 22nd June 2022 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13839220)
If you believe at all in Fiscal Responsibility, most US PDs should get gutted to the bone.

Never before have so many Americans been so happy to shovel so much money into a part of the State that year to year provides lesa and less of what they are supposed to do.
One look at the process rate of Rape Kits proves that most PDs are not interested in actually solving crimes.

They have to pay for the armoured cars and assault rifles somehow.

Captain_Swoop 22nd June 2022 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13839257)
I repeat: You either have a police force or you have Vigilante Justice. No other options.
You seem to hate the very idea of a police force.
That might go over big in left wing discussion circles, but among most Amereicans, not so much.
One of the reasons "Progressive" have political difficluties is they seem to have no idea how dumb a lot of their rhetoric sounds to people who are not the political left.

When the police are the enemy of the people then there is only one choice.

lionking 22nd June 2022 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13839257)
I repeat: You either have a police force or you have Vigilante Justice. No other options.
You seem to hate the very idea of a police force.
That might go over big in left wing discussion circles, but among most Amereicans, not so much.
One of the reasons "Progressive" have political difficluties is they seem to have no idea how dumb a lot of their rhetoric sounds to people who are not the political left.

There are other options. I have said this before and will no doubt say it again. The biggest problem with US policing is the huge number of micro police forces with uneven recruitment standards, training, resourcing, communication capacities, equipment and oversight.

My Australian state of Victoria has a population of 6.6 million and a force of 23000. It’s not perfect but is well run and is generally respected. It still has local presence without the need of hundreds of forces in the state.

I’d really like someone to defend micro police forces.

Brainster 22nd June 2022 06:16 PM

Here's a pretty good bit of citizen investigation. You may have heard that the school's police chief was elected to the city council shortly before the shooting. No surprise, he's not been showing up for meetings, and decided to request a leave of absence, which the council was apparently ready to grant. However, a local citizen discovered that if the chief misses three consecutive meetings (this was his second) that the other council members can vote him out.

She swayed the council and they decided not to give him a leave of absence. :)

The Great Zaganza 22nd June 2022 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13839257)
I repeat: You either have a police force or you have Vigilante Justice. No other options.
You seem to hate the very idea of a police force.
That might go over big in left wing discussion circles, but among most Amereicans, not so much.
One of the reasons "Progressive" have political difficluties is they seem to have no idea how dumb a lot of their rhetoric sounds to people who are not the political left.


And you are repeatedly and objectively wrong.

There is nothing sacred about the Police that makes them exempt from cost/benefit analysis.
It is ia fact that as PDs have gotten bigger, the number of crimes solved has gone down. We are simply not getting our money's worth out of policing in the US, and many cities regularily have to settle with victims of police brutality for millions.
If you had any sense of the Police as a Government Service instead of a Holy Cow, you would see that it needs a "rightsizing" and reorientation to actually "Protect and Serve".

This is not left-wing ideology, it's.common sense fiscal conservatism.

jimbob 23rd June 2022 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 13839326)
There are other options. I have said this before and will no doubt say it again. The biggest problem with US policing is the huge number of micro police forces with uneven recruitment standards, training, resourcing, communication capacities, equipment and oversight.

My Australian state of Victoria has a population of 6.6 million and a force of 23000. It’s not perfect but is well run and is generally respected. It still has local presence without the need of hundreds of forces in the state.

I’d really like someone to defend micro police forces.

Indeed. Something like eighteen thousand organisations with police powers in 2008 - it's not actually clear if anyone knows the actual figure.

12,000 police forces

6000 ten or fewer officers

2000 one officer

It's a recipe for inefficiency and lots of opportunities for corruption due to lack of oversight.

For comparison

The UK has 45 territorial police forces and 3 special police forces (Civil Nuclear Constabulary, Ministry of Defence Police, British Transport Police) and the smallest force (the City of London Police) has 811 officers.


There is a lot wrong with UK policing, but at least such a structure is tractable.

The Great Zaganza 23rd June 2022 01:51 AM

Time for some Merger & Acquisition.

Darat 23rd June 2022 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13838969)
When they rebuild the school they can save money by putting only one door in. It will be much safer too.

(Sarcasm intended)

Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk

A new school can be built to take into account the latest research in pedagogy, such things as curved corridors to reduce sightlines for shooters, firedoors used to isolate areas at the touch of a button and concrete wings to provide barriers for schoolchildren to hide behind. https://www.dezeen.com/2019/09/05/fr...mass-shooting/

lionking 23rd June 2022 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13839529)
A new school can be built to take into account the latest research in pedagogy, such things as curved corridors to reduce sightlines for shooters, firedoors used to isolate areas at the touch of a button and concrete wings to provide barriers for schoolchildren to hide behind. https://www.dezeen.com/2019/09/05/fr...mass-shooting/

I suspect this is a sarcastic post too. But in the small case it isn’t, the other solution is to ban semi automatics.

sarge 23rd June 2022 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13839529)
A new school can be built to take into account the latest research in pedagogy, such things as curved corridors to reduce sightlines for shooters, firedoors used to isolate areas at the touch of a button and concrete wings to provide barriers for schoolchildren to hide behind. https://www.dezeen.com/2019/09/05/fr...mass-shooting/

The US has been down this road before. It turns out it is cheaper to build new anti-tank weapons than it is to build more survivable tanks. I think by making our schools more defensive, we are ceding the initiative to the shooters. Automatic weapons for students is clearly the only alternative.

The Great Zaganza 23rd June 2022 05:46 AM

or we could do something about gun ownership

casebro 23rd June 2022 06:09 AM

Sounds like a repeat of the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre. People bled to death while the perp was standing in the window awaiting suicide by cop. The SWAT sniper was told to wait until a police Lieutenant got to the scene- 15 minutes later. Coroner's reports were edited to read "death by gun shot wound" rather than "exanguination due to gunshot wound". I knew a guy in the clean up crew, he said blood was pooled two inches deep.

Bob001 28th June 2022 11:46 PM

Uvalde cops harass reporters.
Quote:

Journalists have been threatened with arrest for “trespassing” outside public buildings. They have been barred from public meetings and refused basic information about what police did during the May 24 attack. After several early, error-filled news conferences, officials have routinely turned down interview requests and refused to hold news briefings. The situation has been made even more fraught by the spider’s web of local and state agencies involved in responding to and investigating the shooting, some of which now blame each other for the chaos.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/media...ned-by-police/


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