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-   -   Thou shalt not have sex with a boat anymore (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336070)

cullennz 23rd April 2019 11:02 PM

Thou shalt not have sex with a boat anymore
 
Bit left field

Museum decides calling a vessel "she" is bad, so they need to be gender neutral.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...gns-referring/

arthwollipot 23rd April 2019 11:17 PM

Sure, why not?

novaphile 23rd April 2019 11:19 PM

Will be much more interesting when this kind of thing is applied to a gendered language.

Darat 23rd April 2019 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by novaphile (Post 12674362)
Will be much more interesting when this kind of thing is applied to a gendered language.

There is a movement in France to do that, it is rather controversial!

arthwollipot 23rd April 2019 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12674371)
There is a movement in France to do that, it is rather controversial!

Not surprising. The French are rather precious about their language, which is strongly gendered.

But as a tiny step in a general push towards more gender-neutral language - in English, at least - yeah, I support this. There are other, larger steps that also need to be taken, but there's no reason not to stop referring to ships in the feminine.

cullennz 24th April 2019 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 12674373)
Not surprising. The French are rather precious about their language, which is strongly gendered.

But as a tiny step in a general push towards more gender-neutral language - in English, at least - yeah, I support this. There are other, larger steps that also need to be taken, but there's no reason not to stop referring to ships in the feminine.

Can I ask why?

If this is what feminists have left to concentrate on fixing she is hardly looking like a struggle for equality

uke2se 24th April 2019 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12674386)
Can I ask why?

If this is what feminists have left to concentrate on fixing she is hardly looking like a struggle for equality

What makes you think this is the work of feminists?

arthwollipot 24th April 2019 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12674386)
Can I ask why?

If this is what feminists have left to concentrate on fixing she is hardly looking like a struggle for equality

I firmly believe that gender-neutral language is a worthy goal to work towards. All steps in that direction are good steps, even if they are, like in this case, tiny.

cullennz 24th April 2019 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 12674402)
I firmly believe that gender-neutral language is a worthy goal to work towards. All steps in that direction are good steps, even if they are, like in this case, tiny.

Fair enough I suppose

Just seems a bit killing historical language for no good reason to me.

So shall we hack off the statue of liberty's dress then and build a pair of generic trousers?

chrispy 24th April 2019 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 12674373)
Not surprising. The French are rather precious about their language, which is strongly gendered.

But as a tiny step in a general push towards more gender-neutral language - in English, at least - yeah, I support this. There are other, larger steps that also need to be taken, but there's no reason not to stop referring to ships in the feminine.

I see in English how this could be rather easily worked toward, but as a Spanish speaker I would be hard-pressed to imagine the language in a gender-neutral form.

Information Analyst 24th April 2019 01:11 AM

I think we can confidently predict that this has zero effect on the real world, and will probably be dropped by the museum in question in due course. Those who build, own, and crew sea-going vessels have used feminine pronouns for them centuries,* and that's not going to change because one museum pulled a publicity stunt.

* ETA: Nazi warships excepted [Godwin Alert!]

Darat 24th April 2019 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12674400)
What makes you think this is the work of feminists?

The reason being given is that the information signs are being vandalised but just the word "she". It seems quite a reasonable speculation that this is being done by someone who would consider themselves to be a feminist as feminists have vandalised property in the past.

rockinkt 24th April 2019 01:15 AM

Tilting at windmills. The grand life of Social Justice Warriors living up to their motto: We are pretty useless at everything but we can be annoying.

cullennz 24th April 2019 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Information Analyst (Post 12674412)
I think we can confidently predict that this has zero effect on the real world, and will probably be dropped by the museum in question in due course. Those who build, own, and crew sea-going vessels have used feminine pronouns for them centuries, and that's not going to change because one museum pulled a publicity stunt.

Think this is the bit that the callers for change don't seem to get.

No "New rules" are going to change age old terminology

But fair play to them.

"And they huffed and they puffed and they blew the hardly funded museum signs in"

"And they huffed and they puffed and every body else went. Yeah whatever"

arthwollipot 24th April 2019 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12674403)
Fair enough I suppose

Just seems a bit killing historical language for no good reason to me.

So shall we hack off the statue of liberty's dress then and build a pair of generic trousers?

In what way is a statue language?

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispy (Post 12674410)
I see in English how this could be rather easily worked toward, but as a Spanish speaker I would be hard-pressed to imagine the language in a gender-neutral form.

Spanish, being a Romance language, like French, is strongly gendered, and thus much harder to degenderise (that's a word now). I still think it should be worked towards, but will take a lot longer and change the language much more significantly. In a few hundred years time I think the global lingua franca will be a blend of English and Chinese anyway.

cullennz 24th April 2019 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 12674416)
In what way is a statue language?

Spanish, being a Romance language, like French, is strongly gendered, and thus much harder to degenderise (that's a word now). I still think it should be worked towards, but will take a lot longer and change the language much more significantly. In a few hundred years time I think the global lingua franca will be a blend of English and Chinese anyway.

Meant the concept of freedom

"Lady freedom" The statue

Unless you think freedom can only be offered by females


Highly sexist

Information Analyst 24th April 2019 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12674413)
The reason being given is that the information signs are being vandalised but just the word "she". It seems quite a reasonable speculation that this is being done by someone who would consider themselves to be a feminist as feminists have vandalised property in the past.

One would think that a reasonable response would be to try to identify the vandal/s and have them prosecuted for criminal damage, rather than pander to them.

arthwollipot 24th April 2019 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12674418)
Meant the concept of freedom

"Lady freedom" The statue

Unless you think freedom can only be offered by females


Highly sexist

Again, I was talking about gender-neutral language and not about statues at all.

cullennz 24th April 2019 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 12674423)
Again, I was talking about gender-neutral language and not about statues at all.

Right

So she is a bit pick and chosey

Personally think concepts like freedom, peace etc are slightly more important than a bunch of words, but all good

Darat 24th April 2019 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12674415)
Think this is the bit that the callers for change don't seem to get.



No "New rules" are going to change age old terminology



But fair play to them.



"And they huffed and they puffed and they blew the hardly funded museum signs in"



"And they huffed and they puffed and every body else went. Yeah whatever"

But "gendered" words have changed in just my lifetime, several words that seemed ludicrous when they first started being used have made the transition to mainstream usage.

cullennz 24th April 2019 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12674430)
But "gendered" words have changed in just my lifetime, several words that seemed ludicrous when they first started being used have made the transition to mainstream usage.

Are you talking like Chairperson rather than Chairman etc?

As that has kind of been around way before modern day usage

Darat 24th April 2019 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Information Analyst (Post 12674420)
One would think that a reasonable response would be to try to identify the vandal/s and have them prosecuted for criminal damage, rather than pander to them.

I suspect you would find they don't have the resources to conduct such an investigation. The signs have to be reprinted so that cost was one they have to bear so they might as well try to prevent the same vandalism occurring.

Darat 24th April 2019 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12674424)
Right



So she is a bit pick and chosey



Personally think concepts like freedom, peace etc are slightly more important than a bunch of words, but all good

I suspect (twice in one thread) that your stream of posts make sense to you but to me there seems to be missing parts as you seem to jump all over the place.

What exactly is your point in regards to the statue of Liberty?

cullennz 24th April 2019 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12674436)
I suspect (twice in one thread) that your stream of posts make sense to you but to me there seems to be missing parts as you seem to jump all over the place.

What exactly is your point in regards to the statue of Liberty?

It wasn't really

It was what it represents

Freedom as a concept

Surely something that represents freedom should not be sexed?

uke2se 24th April 2019 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12674439)
It wasn't really

It was what it represents

Freedom as a concept

Surely something that represents freedom should not be sexed?

:confused:

cullennz 24th April 2019 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12674443)
:confused:

All good

I give up

Was just trying to think like a anti-things can have sexes type

Checkmite 24th April 2019 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispy (Post 12674410)
I see in English how this could be rather easily worked toward, but as a Spanish speaker I would be hard-pressed to imagine the language in a gender-neutral form.

Masculine and feminine nouns in Romance languages aren't quite the same thing as what happens in English with referring to ships in the feminine. Piscina is a "feminine" noun by construction but it's not meant to imply that the pool is a female entity. When talking about the pool, it's still a thing - an eso, not an ella.

In English, the archaic practice of feminizing vessels involves a level of personification. I do not know why people a long time ago decided to start addressing ships as "she" and "her" rather than "it". I wonder if the fact that the captain of a vessel is referred to as the "master" may come from the same basis; perhaps some wistful and vaguely misogynist (yes, the M-word) sentiment about how a ship needs to be properly controlled to make its best use?

cullennz 24th April 2019 02:26 AM

Would imagine it was the obvious

Pride in owning something you have pride in

Obviously sexist, but it is hardly going to change in everyday language. People use it for cars ffs

Master is being master of the crew.

Which is't

Arcade22 24th April 2019 07:30 AM

Ships and boats don't have ******* genders.

I Am The Scum 24th April 2019 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12674413)
The reason being given is that the information signs are being vandalised but just the word "she". It seems quite a reasonable speculation that this is being done by someone who would consider themselves to be a feminist as feminists have vandalised property in the past.

Could have been an incel mad at all the men going inside of "her."

TragicMonkey 24th April 2019 08:25 AM

Or it could be a religious person who believes anthropomorphizing objects is idolatrous. Or a member of a culture which regards boats as masculine.

CORed 24th April 2019 09:38 AM

I find that my reaction to this is one of extreme apathy. I can't think of a reason to give a **** one way or the other. As others have pointed out, calling boats or ships "she" is a long tradition. Possibly it in some way rooted in sexism or misogyny. So what?

dann 24th April 2019 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by novaphile (Post 12674362)
Will be much more interesting when this kind of thing is applied to a gendered language.


It was pretty easy to do in Danish. We used to have something corresponding to the Lehrer/Lehrerin in German:
en lærer (male) a teacher
en lærerinde (female) a female teacher
en skuespiller (male) an actor
en skuespillerinde (female) an actress

Nowadays en lærer is a teacher of any sex. Han er lærer, hun er lærer - He's a teacher, she's a teacher. It was a very smooth transition. Only very old people still say lærerinde or skuespillerinde.

Lucian 24th April 2019 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12674863)
It was pretty easy to do in Danish. We used to have something corresponding to the Lehrer/Lehrerin in German:
en lærer (male) a teacher
en lærerinde (female) a female teacher
en skuespiller (male) an actor
en skuespillerinde (female) an actress

Nowadays en lærer is a teacher of any sex. Han er lærer, hun er lærer - He's a teacher, she's a teacher. It was a very smooth transition. Only very old people still say lærerinde or skuespillerinde.

But while Danish has grammatical gender, aren't the genders neuter and "common gender"? It's comparatively easy to make the language more gender-neutral if there is no distinction between masculine and feminine. Norwegian still seems to have an actual feminine gender, but apparently one can treat feminine nouns as common gender (ei/en jente; sola/solen).

chrispy 24th April 2019 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 12674449)
Masculine and feminine nouns in Romance languages aren't quite the same thing as what happens in English with referring to ships in the feminine. Piscina is a "feminine" noun by construction but it's not meant to imply that the pool is a female entity. When talking about the pool, it's still a thing - an eso, not an ella.

In English, the archaic practice of feminizing vessels involves a level of personification. I do not know why people a long time ago decided to start addressing ships as "she" and "her" rather than "it". I wonder if the fact that the captain of a vessel is referred to as the "master" may come from the same basis; perhaps some wistful and vaguely misogynist (yes, the M-word) sentiment about how a ship needs to be properly controlled to make its best use?

Ah. That is a much clearer explaination of the OP. Thanks.

Checkmite 24th April 2019 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CORed (Post 12674850)
As others have pointed out, calling boats or ships "she" is a long tradition.

Perhaps, but it's a tradition specific to a culture we don't really belong to, regardless of how "long" it is.

bruto 24th April 2019 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12674386)
Can I ask why?

If this is what feminists have left to concentrate on fixing she is hardly looking like a struggle for equality

I would note that, aside from being a matter of general principle, it is also possible for some people, even feminists, to pay attention to more than one thing at a time.

rockinkt 24th April 2019 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 12674449)
Masculine and feminine nouns in Romance languages aren't quite the same thing as what happens in English with referring to ships in the feminine. Piscina is a "feminine" noun by construction but it's not meant to imply that the pool is a female entity. When talking about the pool, it's still a thing - an eso, not an ella.

In English, the archaic practice of feminizing vessels involves a level of personification. I do not know why people a long time ago decided to start addressing ships as "she" and "her" rather than "it". I wonder if the fact that the captain of a vessel is referred to as the "master" may come from the same basis; perhaps some wistful and vaguely misogynist (yes, the M-word) sentiment about how a ship needs to be properly controlled to make its best use?

Perhaps because they had been named after females?
Ships that have male names are referred to in the masculine gender.
The Edmund Fitzgerald come to mind as well as the Nimitz.
Maybe we are looking way too deep into this. It's all just a matter of names.

bruto 24th April 2019 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockinkt (Post 12675010)
Perhaps because they had been named after females?
Ships that have male names are referred to in the masculine gender.
The Edmund Fitzgerald come to mind as well as the Nimitz.
Maybe we are looking way too deep into this. It's all just a matter of names.

But there are plenty of ships that are not named for people, and I think they generally default to "she," as do spips that are not specified. Though I read that English warships were "he" as a rule. But I think it's mostly a holdover from previous languages in which nouns are gendered as they are not in English. It seems easy enough simply to drop the gendering and call ships "it." The argument that doing so is uncomfortable for some people is no better than the argument that leaving it alone is uncomfortable for others.

CORed 24th April 2019 12:53 PM

In response to the title of the OP:

Okay, as long as I'm still allowed to have sex in a boat.

Or drink American beer, which I understand is just like it.


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