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-   -   Atheist nurse's fight against mandatory AA will go before B.C. Human Rights Tribunal (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336979)

carlitos 13th June 2019 01:49 PM

It would be great if evidence-based recovery were more popular, but it's a long way away. AA has a decades-long head start, and people still culturally turn to religion when it hits the fan. Thankfully, many of the inpatient rehab places do CBT and REBT, but they still tend to send people to AA meetings, because there are just so many of them.

Evidence-based recovery - https://www.smartrecovery.org/

Babbylonian 13th June 2019 02:08 PM

The 12 steps are a straight logical mess. If I declare that I'm powerless and give myself over to a "higher power," why should I bother, for example, making amends to those I've wronged? Why isn't my higher power taking care of this kind of crap?

Minoosh 13th June 2019 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12725438)
Saying I am powerless and appealing to a mythical being is not my thing. If it works for you ....fine but I say "go screw yourself" if you think you should be able to tell me it has to be mine as well.

Similar sentiments are probably being expressed in AA meetings right now, although perhaps more politely. Truthfully, in AA as elsewhere most people are probably too self-absorbed to really care what your "higher power" is.

There's a paradox. When your brain has been rewired by a substance addiction it's very hard to think your way out of that addiction. Your brain thinks it needs this stuff and it may be right, in the moment. Your conscious mind may be very invested in preserving the status quo. So, many of us have to come at it from a different angle, to find some aspect of ourselves beyond our ordinary conscious will. With me, I discovered more or less by accident that prayer "worked" in a situation where I was going insane with fear and that was pretty much all I could do. It did not change external reality but it changed something in me.

I routinely stick up for AA, because I know in a couple of hours I could be in a room with 30 people, relaxing during the opening rituals and absorbing what people share about their own experience. Maybe I come back to that meeting, maybe I don't. Strictly up to me. Making people attend is probably counterproductive and may be dangerous. I thought that practice was on the wane.

psionl0 13th June 2019 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 12725333)
That's easy. Pick a religion, any religion.

For followers of that religion non belief of every other religion's gods is sacrosanct.

For Abrahmic religions it's actually in the text.

That is just so much word salad. By definition, if you believe in a particular religion then you DIS-believe all other religions.

acbytesla 13th June 2019 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh (Post 12725503)
Similar sentiments are probably being expressed in AA meetings right now, although perhaps more politely. Truthfully, in AA as elsewhere most people are probably too self-absorbed to really care what your "higher power" is.

There's a paradox. When your brain has been rewired by a substance addiction it's very hard to think your way out of that addiction. Your brain thinks it needs this stuff and it may be right, in the moment. Your conscious mind may be very invested in preserving the status quo. So, many of us have to come at it from a different angle, to find some aspect of ourselves beyond our ordinary conscious will. With me, I discovered more or less by accident that prayer "worked" in a situation where I was going insane with fear and that was pretty much all I could do. It did not change external reality but it changed something in me.

I routinely stick up for AA, because I know in a couple of hours I could be in a room with 30 people, relaxing during the opening rituals and absorbing what people share about their own experience. Maybe I come back to that meeting, maybe I don't. Strictly up to me. Making people attend is probably counterproductive and may be dangerous. I thought that practice was on the wane.

As I said before if, it is what you need, I have no problem with that.

Here is my conundrum though. Can I take responsibility for my thoughts? Part of me says yes and the other part, says "hell no". I don't know the answer to this question and frankly I don't think anyone else knows either. If you're hanging on by a thread, letting go of the thread may be the only rational thing to do. But I also think it is dangerous to declare oneself powerless, especially when your own mind says there is no higher power.

The religious connections is incredibly troublesome to me as I see the Bible as the most immoral and evil book ever written. (The Qur'an is a close second)
If you think differently, I am of the belief you've never read them.

Minoosh 13th June 2019 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12725537)
Here is my conundrum though. Can I take responsibility for my thoughts? Part of me says yes and the other part, says "hell no". I don't know the answer to this question and frankly I don't think anyone else knows either. If you're hanging on by a thread, letting go of the thread may be the only rational thing to do.

I like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12725537)
But I also think it is dangerous to declare oneself powerless, especially when your own mind says there is no higher power.

Well there's a power greater than me. I'm just not sure it's "loving" or "jealous" or any other anthropomorphic quality.

A lot of people have narrow definition of that word "powerless." It has to do with what happens after they drink, not before.

I can't speak for the practices of AA everywhere, but it's not about a bunch of people telling you that you're powerless. That's for the individual to determine based on their own experiences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12725537)
The religious connections is incredibly troublesome to me as I see the Bible as the most immoral and evil book ever written. (The Qur'an is a close second)
If you think differently, I am of the belief you've never read them.

If AA is a religion, it's the most insipid one ever invented with the possible exception of Unitarian Universalist. It's a deliberately bland pastiche overlaid with some soothing words for agnostics. There's the Lord's Prayer, the Serenity Prayer and a couple of others that are AA's invention.

I'm sure there are some people who feel like they've been preached at but that hasn't been my experience. Just the opposite, really.

Myriad 13th June 2019 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12725532)
That is just so much word salad. By definition, if you believe in a particular religion then you DIS-believe all other religions.


That's pretty much exactly what 3point14 was saying.

(It's not actually true of all religions, but the religions it's not true for are minorities throughout North America.)

acbytesla 13th June 2019 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh (Post 12725641)
I like that.

Well there's a power greater than me. I'm just not sure it's "loving" or "jealous" or any other anthropomorphic quality.

A lot of people have narrow definition of that word "powerless." It has to do with what happens after they drink, not before.

I can't speak for the practices of AA everywhere, but it's not about a bunch of people telling you that you're powerless. That's for the individual to determine based on their own experiences.

If AA is a religion, it's the most insipid one ever invented with the possible exception of Unitarian Universalist. It's a deliberately bland pastiche overlaid with some soothing words for agnostics. There's the Lord's Prayer, the Serenity Prayer and a couple of others that are AA's invention.

I'm sure there are some people who feel like they've been preached at but that hasn't been my experience. Just the opposite, really.

It's not that for me. I have no desire to tell others how to run their lives. But I don't want to give a religion that tells people they're immoral if they happen to be gay or gives preachers of any kind authority over others.

I cannot for sure say there isn't a creator. There may have been. Although I doubt it. But what I can say is THAT NO ONE on Earth knows the mind of that being. That an ignorant goat herder a few thousand years says he did is not evidence that he actually did.

Your knowledge of that goat herder's scribbling does not mean you are enlightened.

whoanellie 13th June 2019 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12725168)
The 12 step program is not just religious, it's a con. They have NEVER proved the effectiveness of their programs.

What is the point of the con? To get people to throw a buck in a basket?
Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12725222)
I CARE. TRUTH MATTERS. Whether it's an alcoholic or the President.

Forcing people to tell lies is not good for anyone. What right does anyone have to put you in a position to choose to be a phony or choose recovery? How can an alcoholic who is told these step are essential for recovery when he believes one of those steps is crap?

And by all available evidence it is crap.

How can the alcoholic take it seriously, when it's based on a lie?

I don't believe that any one should be force to go to AA and AA doesn't force any one to go to it. I do believe that the atheist in the OP has a valid argument but I wonder if he's tried AA with an open mind or simply rejected it on principle.

There are a lot of people in recovery who would say it isn't crap, that AA is a life saver.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12725478)
I'm not sure if we do. We're all not alike. We have different strengths and weaknesses. I feel you're demonstrating the same arrogance as the AA people. You cannot walk in another person's shoes. You will never know what it is like to be them.

Tesla, isn't that what you're doing? You're not an alcoholic, never had a drug problem, but have a very strong opinion about what such folks should be doing? Have you ever been to an AA meeting?

whoanellie 13th June 2019 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh (Post 12725641)
I like that.

Well there's a power greater than me. I'm just not sure it's "loving" or "jealous" or any other anthropomorphic quality.

A lot of people have narrow definition of that word "powerless." It has to do with what happens after they drink, not before.

I can't speak for the practices of AA everywhere, but it's not about a bunch of people telling you that you're powerless. That's for the individual to determine based on their own experiences.

If AA is a religion, it's the most insipid one ever invented with the possible exception of Unitarian Universalist. It's a deliberately bland pastiche overlaid with some soothing words for agnostics. There's the Lord's Prayer, the Serenity Prayer and a couple of others that are AA's invention.

I'm sure there are some people who feel like they've been preached at but that hasn't been my experience. Just the opposite, really.

If you ever want to start a fight, go to an AA meeting and start talking about Jesus. There's a good chance you'll have one on your hands.

Minoosh 13th June 2019 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoanellie (Post 12725738)
If you ever want to start a fight, go to an AA meeting and start talking about Jesus. There's a good chance you'll have one on your hands.

I always find that a discordant note but I've never seen anyone fight about it. Maybe they took it to the parking lot ;)

acbytesla 13th June 2019 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoanellie (Post 12725737)
What is the point of the con? To get people to throw a buck in a basket?

I don't believe that any one should be force to go to AA and AA doesn't force any one to go to it. I do believe that the atheist in the OP has a valid argument but I wonder if he's tried AA with an open mind or simply rejected it on principle.

There are a lot of people in recovery who would say it isn't crap, that AA is a life saver.


Tesla, isn't that what you're doing? You're not an alcoholic, never had a drug problem, but have a very strong opinion about what such folks should be doing? Have you ever been to an AA meeting?


I have strong feelings against the promotion of theistic nonsense. Especially when the secular government violates the separation of church and state and orders it. Or an employer orders it. Individuals may embrace whatever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's rights. I may be wrong, but I do believe that some 12 step programs are often government and church supported. There is a reason that some churches support it. It's an investment. Part of the long con. The cure being their mythical god. So in the future, you find yourself tithing.

Minoosh 14th June 2019 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12725759)
I have strong feelings against the promotion of theistic nonsense. Especially when the secular government violates the separation of church and state and orders it. Or an employer orders it. Individuals may embrace whatever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's rights. I may be wrong, but I do believe that some 12 step programs are often government and church supported. There is a reason that some churches support it. It's an investment. Part of the long con. The cure being their mythical god. So in the future, you find yourself tithing.

By baked-in tradition AA groups are never government or church sponsored. They're not affiliated with any sects or denominations and are fully funded from member contributions. No one gives you the stink-eye if you don't put a dollar in the basket.

That hasn't stopped churches from adopting their own versions, but that's not AA. And the treatment industry tends to lean heavily on the 12-step model, but that's not AA, either. AA will NEVER adopt any form of tithing. The encouragement to find a higher power does not specify what that power should be although many members do call that power God as does the literature. Some will call GOD an acronym for "good, orderly direction." It's entirely up to the individual.

Don't mean to preach but many people simply have an inaccurate understanding about what 12-step programs are and what they do. They're not based on the Bible and they asks nothing of their members except voluntary and quite modest contributions. The higher power can be the process itself as theprestige suggested. You could call it your own better self, the part that wants to heal, survive and thrive. Just probably not the part of your brain you use to rationalize your addiction.

3point14 14th June 2019 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12725532)
That is just so much word salad.

I disagree. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" makes disbelief in those gods sacrosanct. It's explicit in the text.


Makes perfect sense. Or, at least as much sense as any other aspect of religious doctrine.


Quote:

By definition, if you believe in a particular religion then you DIS-believe all other religions.
Well, yes.

8enotto 14th June 2019 05:45 AM

Most people with court ordered rehab are going through the motions to stay out of jail or keep their jobs.

They don't want to be fixed, they like the bad habits. They will dilute the best efforts of any program.

Anyone who wants to break an addiction has s far better chance at making a success of any program. Especially if he is capable if breaking with old friends and making a new start.

And you don't even need a rehab center or AA if the willpower exists to stay on track.

But if it helps the person should seek the flavor of rehab center he will respond to best. Even if it is a church run program.

This is real life experience from living in areas like thus. They were my neighbors and friends. Were....

TragicMonkey 14th June 2019 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 12726004)
I disagree. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" makes disbelief in those gods sacrosanct. It's explicit in the text.

Not really. The ancient Hebrews were monolatrous, not monotheist. They believed multiple gods existed, but only worshipped one of them. The "no other gods before me" only makes sense if there are other gods to be jealous of.

True monotheism was a much later idea.

Belz... 14th June 2019 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 12725494)
The 12 steps are a straight logical mess. If I declare that I'm powerless and give myself over to a "higher power," why should I bother, for example, making amends to those I've wronged? Why isn't my higher power taking care of this kind of crap?

I think that's part of why 12 step programs don't work.

Belz... 14th June 2019 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12726129)
True monotheism was a much later idea.

Also much more boring.

pgwenthold 14th June 2019 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12726129)
Not really. The ancient Hebrews were monolatrous, not monotheist. They believed multiple gods existed, but only worshipped one of them. The "no other gods before me" only makes sense if there are other gods to be jealous of.

True monotheism was a much later idea.

Also, when God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, he says, "I am the god of your father, Abraham." As opposed to the god of the tribe down the street, etc. Again, an implicit acknowledgement of the existence of other gods.

theprestige 14th June 2019 07:33 AM

Well, an implicit acknowledgement of the existence of belief in other gods, at least.

---

Fast zombies are real. Worry about fast zombies, not slow zombies.

Ha! You just acknowledged that slow zombies are real!

TragicMonkey 14th June 2019 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12726229)
Well, an implicit acknowledgement of the existence of belief in other gods, at least.

---

Fast zombies are real. Worry about fast zombies, not slow zombies.

Ha! You just acknowledged that slow zombies are real!

Arguments by analogy always fail.

There's a great deal more than two quotations on which to base the interpretation that the ancient Hebrews were monolatrous. I think it would be a derail to pursue it further here. But it's not something I just made up, it's a pretty standard belief in religious studies. Academics with credentials, etc.

angrysoba 14th June 2019 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12725154)
Which higher power would an atheist place his or her life into the hands of? Darth Vader? Stephen Hawking?

Entropy. In fact, it is the supreme power.

Dave Rogers 14th June 2019 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 12726267)
Entropy. In fact, it is the supreme power.

According to Wikipedia, though, 'It is frequently stipulated that as long as a higher power is "greater" than the individual, then the only condition is that it should also be loving and caring.' I think that kind of rules out entropy.

Dave

Joe Random 14th June 2019 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 12726273)
According to Wikipedia, though, 'It is frequently stipulated that as long as a higher power is "greater" than the individual, then the only condition is that it should also be loving and caring.' I think that kind of rules out entropy.

Dave


"And Chaos so loved Her creation Matter that she sent her only begotten daughter Entropia to spread it all out in a thin uniform goo across the whole of Heaven and Earth that none might say 'behold, for my palace is sturdier than thy hut', and all would enjoy Matter equally [or rather would have, had they themselves not been spread into a uniform goo as well] ...".

Wonder if that would fly in a 12 step?

applecorped 14th June 2019 10:02 AM

Well there's that pesky problem that AA doesn't work regardless of whether or not you believe in a higher power that should really be the topic here

Butter! 14th June 2019 10:11 AM

I've always thought that the "make amends" step is a bad idea more often than not. Especially for narcotics addicts. If you're deep enough into hard dope that you're coming to meetings (especially involuntarily), then you need to just break ties with almost everyone you know. Also, most of the time, seeking people out and digging up old wrongs only makes those wronged people uncomfortable all over again. Has anyone here ever been "step 9'd" by somebody you know who's working a program? It's sooooo awkward. It just feels like empty theatre, when I would have preferred to just never talk about the time you stole $20 off my night stand ever again.

Apologize to your family and close friends if you got 'em, but for the most part, the world moves on. Also, apologize to the people you need to just because you want to apologize. Don't be like "I'm at the step where I make amends." Call up your mom, and say, "Mom, I'm sorry I've hurt you. I'm ready to get better. I'm even in a program." See the difference? **** Step 9. I am anti step 9.

Again, these are my opinions. They are pulled from my (slightly educated) butthole.

The Greater Fool 14th June 2019 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isissxn (Post 12726435)
I've always thought that the "make amends" step is a bad idea more often than not. Especially for narcotics addicts. If you're deep enough into hard dope that you're coming to meetings (especially involuntarily), then you need to just break ties with almost everyone you know. Also, most of the time, seeking people out and digging up old wrongs only makes those wronged people uncomfortable all over again. Has anyone here ever been "step 9'd" by somebody you know who's working a program? It's sooooo awkward. It just feels like empty theatre, when I would have preferred to just never talk about the time you stole $20 off my night stand ever again.

Apologize to your family and close friends if you got 'em, but for the most part, the world moves on. **** Step 9. I am anti step 9.

Again, these are my opinions. They are pulled from my (slightly educated) butthole.

The out for step 9 is there is a caveat: ... unless doing so would cause additional harm (or something to that effect, I'm not inclined to look it up).

Butter! 14th June 2019 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Greater Fool (Post 12726443)
The out for step 9 is there is a caveat: ... unless doing so would cause additional harm (or something to that effect, I'm not inclined to look it up).

Right, but my argument is that it almost always causes harm. The caveat isn't referring to the subtleties of harm that I'm trying to get across. (It's a bit abstract, so I may not be doing a good job of wording things.)

Butter! 14th June 2019 10:21 AM

I've been kind of being deliberately vague in this thread, but full disclosure - I have been on all sides of this thing. I have been on the counselor's side, the (er) client side, and the loved one of client side. So my opinions are sort of a half-formed mishmash based on all that. It's interesting to discuss, but I do not want anyone to think that I'm certain about anything I'm saying.

Dancing David 14th June 2019 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8enotto (Post 12725466)

I quit drinking heavy by just not drinking booze.

This is similar to Trimpey's Big Choice

psionl0 14th June 2019 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 12726004)
I disagree. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" makes disbelief in those gods sacrosanct. It's explicit in the text.


Makes perfect sense. Or, at least as much sense as any other aspect of religious doctrine.




Well, yes.

Your words were "non belief" as in "lack of belief". (Telling an atheist here that they DIS-believe in gods is like waving a red flag in front of a bull).

Only a "belief" can be sacrosanct. Not having a belief can't be regarded as a sacrosanct position otherwise atheism would be a religion.

Senex 14th June 2019 11:17 AM

Here is a link to "The Orange Papers," a detailed explanation of the history and shortcomings of AA. I doubt anyone who has drunk the flavor aide already will have any epiphany but it should provide insight for those who are unfamiliar with the organization.

Minoosh 14th June 2019 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isissxn (Post 12726445)
Right, but my argument is that it almost always causes harm. The caveat isn't referring to the subtleties of harm that I'm trying to get across. (It's a bit abstract, so I may not be doing a good job of wording things.)

The most meaningful amends IMO are the ones made by a daily and hopefully lasting change in behavior. The point is to blast through the shame many addicts feel about the past. It's useless or worse to try to rush through the process on some kind of apology tour. Bill cribbed the 9th step from an Anglo-Catholic movement that was big on auricular confession but it's a sensitive issue and at the least it requires (IMO) time for reflection about the harm caused, if any, and how to remedy it.

Did anyone just give you your $20 back? IMO that would be meaningful, even if done covertly. Apologizing without restitution is pointless. IMO.

Minoosh 14th June 2019 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isissxn (Post 12726435)
Don't be like "I'm at the step where I make amends." Call up your mom, and say, "Mom, I'm sorry I've hurt you. I'm ready to get better. I'm even in a program." See the difference? **** Step 9. I am anti step 9.

What makes you think that the highlighted is not a meaningful expression of the 9th step? It's a valid thing to say if it helps repair some of the harm, but actually following up with changed behavior is probably more important.

There are people who think Bill conveniently decided on the 9th step wording in order to avoid confessing infidelities to his wife (because it would only hurt her worse, you see). I don't know if that's true, but it's a heck of a workaround. Believing he had covered his spiritual bases probably helped him not drink. He had other problems though.

acbytesla 14th June 2019 03:28 PM

My understanding of 12 step programs is all second hand. As I said before, I may have my own demons, but drugs or alcohol has never been one of them.

I know people who swear by these programs and others who found them useless. I know atheists who said that religious overtones was just too much for them. But I can't say what it is like.

Admittedly, I have a bone to pick with all the charlatans, bigotry and religious influence in our lives. I see pastors as con artists. It's insidious and makes me sick. It's an issue in prisons, our military and it is an issue with mental health. Mythology is not an answer.

Minoosh 14th June 2019 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12726713)
My understanding of 12 step programs is all second hand. As I said before, I may have my own demons, but drugs or alcohol has never been one of them.

I know people who swear by these programs and others who found them useless. I know atheists who said that religious overtones was just too much for them. But I can't say what it is like.

Admittedly, I have a bone to pick with all the charlatans, bigotry and religious influence in our lives. I see pastors as con artists. It's insidious and makes me sick. It's an issue in prisons, our military and it is an issue with mental health. Mythology is not an answer.

As I read more about his situation this stood out (from the link in the OP):

Quote:

The 12 steps require members to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him," admit their faults and make amends with those they've hurt.
No they don't.

ETA: Had to add this:
Quote:

But leading addictions researchers have long questioned the overall effectiveness of AA and its requirement for absolute abstinence.
There is no such requirement. You can go to meetings toasted if you want. No one kicks you out of AA if you drink or use. If you're unduly disruptive, someone might have a word with you.

acbytesla 14th June 2019 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh (Post 12726821)
As I read more about his situation this stood out (from the link in the OP):

No they don't.

ETA: Had to add this:
There is no such requirement. You can go to meetings toasted if you want. No one kicks you out of AA if you drink or use. If you're unduly disruptive, someone might have a word with you.

I'm not sure that every 12 step program is run the same way. Attitudes regarding religion vary a great deal. So while 12 step programs in SF definitely may be more secular, it could be very different in Missouri or South Carolina.

8enotto 14th June 2019 07:58 PM

I used to live near a locale where a step 5 group met and they were the most foul mouthed lot. The guy in charge found it worked to keep his group comfortable. Now after work I pass another. It used to be a bar but now a quite christian group (all neighbors to my work ) meet and I have heard prayers there.

And not one foul word.

The local hq of AA rents an office directly over the biggest liquor store in town. I find that funny.

Minoosh 14th June 2019 09:14 PM

Id be lying if I said that AA didnt save my life, but it also towards the end left me in a state of overwhelming cognitive dissonance.

As far as I can tell, this is a fairly typical statement among people who benefited from AA but who ultimately decided on another path.

And that's fine.

Minoosh 14th June 2019 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8enotto (Post 12726864)
The local hq of AA rents an office directly over the biggest liquor store in town. I find that funny.

At a meeting I noticed tables were equipped with bottles of hand sanitizer - i.e., ethanol.

I find that funny!


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