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-   -   The behaviour of US police officers (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323251)

jimbob 8th October 2018 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12455090)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45739335

"It was shortly after 05:00 when three West Milwaukee police officers broke into the home of 22-year-old Adam Trammell to find him naked and bewildered, standing in his bathtub as water from the shower ran down his body.

Adam, who had been diagnosed with schizophrenia, was having some form of breakdown. A neighbour had called 911 to report that she had seen him naked in the corridor, talking about the devil...

The officers then fired their Tasers at him 15 times, administering long, painful electric shocks as he screamed and writhed in the bathtub.

Then more officers arrived, and after dragging him, still naked, from his apartment, they held him down and he was injected with sedatives - midazolam at first, and then ketamine.
Moments later, Adam stopped breathing. He was taken to hospital and pronounced dead soon after arrival. The date was 25 May 2017."

"Already in 2018, across the US, at least 136 people with a disability are known to have been killed by police officers, according to a database maintained by the Washington Post and analysis of local media reports."

And on it continues with no signs of abatement.

Naked in the bath - FFS.

Information Analyst 8th October 2018 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12457992)
Naked in the bath - FFS.

Naked in the bath, TASERed 15 times.

PhantomWolf 8th October 2018 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12457992)
Naked in the bath - FFS.

Sadly I think it's a result of their training. They are trained to approach a situation is a certain way and if the person doesn't respond in an appropriate manner then they are taught to escalate it to the next stage so as to get the person to respond to them. When they encounter someone that is unable to respond in the manner they want, there seems to be no ability to back off, re-evaluate and bring in someone that is qualified to deal with a person with that type of behavioural issue, and so instead they keep escalating it until physical force is employed.

There needs to be a change in their training where unless the person is an imminent threat to themselves or another, that they back off, secure the scene and call in disability specialists who can take over and who have the training in how to handle someone that has these kinds of issues.

It's incredibly sad, but it's the result of giving someone a hammer and telling them to hit in nails, then demanding that they deal with a screw.

Nessie 9th October 2018 02:13 AM

It disturbs me as much as the instructions shouted to the youth in the LA hotel corridor, that he did not get quite right and was shot dead because of it.

Obey a police officers shouted instructions when very stressed or die. A loaded game of Russian roulette Simon Says.

zooterkin 9th October 2018 04:40 AM

I went to a very interesting and though-provoking talk by David Baker on the topic of deaths after police contact. The talk was mainly about the UK, but he has also studied the subject in the US (see his book).

One of the problems is that there is never any proper investigation of such deaths (they are not treated the same way as a homicide not involving the police would be, the scene is not treated as a crime scene, evidence is not gathered, police involved are (or were, until recently) allowed to collude on their statements, etc.), and so no data is available to provide evidence for any change in how situations should be dealt with.

It's also not always a simple matter; mental health issues are frequently a factor, and the police are often called in after something has escalated to a public order offence, when it could have been dealt with earlier as a health issue if the right resources had been available. If the police don't know there is a history of mental health issues, they may only be aware of an apparently violent person who could be high on drugs.

I'm not for a moment excusing the actions in this particular example, but it's not always a simple case of police brutality that is the cause; that may often be a factor, but it's not the full story.

Stacko 10th October 2018 10:08 AM

Tennessee cop, assigned to security detail for Democrat gubernatorial candidate, leaks to Republican opposition that candidate went to a “Muslim event,” thinking its a scandal. The event? A meet and greet at a falafel restaurant.

Quote:

After learning about a Dean stop the Lee campaign understood to be part of a “Muslim event,” according to Tennessee Highway Patrol memos obtained by the USA TODAY NETWORK - Tennessee, the Lee campaign reportedly asked another trooper whether his staff could obtain a photo of Dean in a mosque.

The Sept. 7 event in question was a meet and greet at a falafel restaurant in Knoxville, and not a religious gathering.

quadraginta 10th October 2018 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacko (Post 12460138)
Tennessee cop, assigned to security detail for Democrat gubernatorial candidate, leaks to Republican opposition that candidate went to a “Muslim event,” thinking its a scandal. The event? A meet and greet at a falafel restaurant.


Obviously it had to be a Muslim event, because no Real Tennessean™ would ever eat anything deep-fried in batter.

:rolleyes:

fagin 10th October 2018 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12460656)
Obviously it had to be a Muslim event, because no Real Tennessean™ would ever eat anything deep-fried in batter.

:rolleyes:

Just to be pedantic, falafels are not cooked in batter.

quadraginta 11th October 2018 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fagin (Post 12460690)
Just to be pedantic, falafels are not cooked in batter.


Do you think a Real Tennessean™ would care about the distinction, or be able to make it?

Mumbles 17th October 2018 07:12 PM

In another story, a cop pulls up on an 11 year old and a 13 year old, kid pulls a realistic looking gun, and...

gets a lecture on why this is a bad idea. Good work, Officer Peter Casuccio!

River 17th October 2018 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbles (Post 12469270)
In another story, a cop pulls up on an 11 year old and a 13 year old, kid pulls a realistic looking gun, and...

gets a lecture on why this is a bad idea. Good work, Officer Peter Casuccio!

Excellent job by the officer, and I'm impressed you posted something positive. Cheers. I hope the kids learned an important lesson.

Checkmite 17th October 2018 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Information Analyst (Post 12457985)
How is that even legal?

I seem to remember an incident earlier this year (I believe) where a man leaving his place of work was approached by police and arrested after being mistaken for an individual with a similar name who had caused a scene at some medical clinic earlier in the day. The wrongfully-arrested man, if I'm remembering correctly, was taken to a mental health center where he was pressured to confess to being the person they misidentified him as and for having done the things that person had been reported doing, and upon refusing was forcefully injected with drugs the clinic would not identify at the time. At some point while the man was in a stupor, the police learned they had misidentified him, and only then the clinic informed his adult daughter that he had been dosed with a powerful antipsychotic and warned her of the potential dangerous side-effects.

Checkmite 18th October 2018 12:24 AM

Topical: two Florida police officers have been sentenced to a year in jail each by a federal court for conspiring with their corrupt former police chief to clear a backlog of cases by pinning them on innocent black people.

According to their previous testimony, the two police officers were made complicit in a racket whereby the police chief and his associates would give "code-phrases" over the radio indicating that a black individual had been seen somewhere in the almost-all-white city of Biscayne Park; whereupon the complicit officers would locate and stop the black persons under a pretense, then arrest and charge them with the city's unresolved crimes. The motivation, amazingly, was to improve the police chief's public image by improving the department's case-clearing statistic under his leadership. That police chief, Raimundo Atesiano, pleaded guilty last month.

However the jail sentences for these two officers came completely unexpected to the officers and their attorneys, and even the prosecutor; since the two had agreed to a plea deal in which they would testify against Atesiano in exchange for the prosecutor recommending no jail time. The judge, however, disagreed with the recommendation, and even scolded the DA for ever having offered it, asserting the case against all three was so solid that they could've been easily tried together with no need for any cooperative deals:

Quote:

As family members cried in disbelief, Moore chastised federal prosecutors for agreeing to recommend eight months of home confinement for Dayoub and one year of probation for Fernandez based on their grand jury testimony and other assistance in helping target former Chief Raimundo Atesiano, who had pressured officers in the mostly white suburban town to pin property crimes on people of color. He pleaded guilty last month.

“It would have been a slap on the wrist, and it would have sent entirely the wrong message — particularly to the minority community,” Moore told Assistant U.S. Attorney Harry Wallace. “To think that they can come into court and get a slap on the wrist is insulting to the men and women in law enforcement.”

Moore challenged the prosecutor about his recommendation of leniency for the two defendants, who pleaded guilty in August to depriving a 16-year-old of his civil rights after framing him for four unsolved burglaries in 2013 at the direction of the ex-chief, Atesiano. The misdemeanor conviction carried up to one year in prison, while under the plea agreement prosecutors dropped a more serious civil rights conspiracy charge with a maximum 10-year sentence.

Wallace said his decision allowed the U.S. Attorney’s Office to use testimony by Dayoub and Fernandez to compel Atesiano to plead guilty to the felony civil rights conspiracy. “We were faced with a Hobson’s choice,” Wallace told the judge.

But Moore, who accused the prosecutors of “sentencing manipulation,” rejected Wallace’s argument. The judge said had the prosecutors gone to trial against the ex-chief and the two officers, it would have been a “slam dunk.”

Matthew Best 19th October 2018 09:26 AM

Police officers in the US were charged with more than 400 rapes over a 9-year period

According to research from Bowling Green State University, police officers in the US were charged with forcible rape 405 times between 2005 and 2013. That's an average of 45 a year. Forcible fondling was more common, with 636 instances.

Yet experts say those statistics are, by no means, comprehensive. Data on sexual assaults by police are almost nonexistent, they say.

Stacko 20th October 2018 02:46 PM

Florida Police Under Fire for Punching 14-Year-Old Girl.

Quote:

Police in Coral Springs, Florida are facing criticism after a viral video showed an officer repeatedly punching a 14-year-old girl in the back while she was lying face-down. The Coral Springs Police Department issued a statement Friday defending what many saw as excessive force, saying the unnamed teenager was “struck in the side” in order to “have her comply” after she’d resisted arrest. The statement also cited the teenager’s “stature and aggressive behavior,” saying she had been “cursing” and “attempting to incite the other teens” present before resisting arrest.

quadraginta 20th October 2018 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacko (Post 12472839)


According to that news report the cops said they were hitting her in the side to get her to release her clenched fists.

Since the video clearly shows two cops holding her her lying face down on the ground with both arms trapped underneath her while one of them repeatedly kidney punched her, that excuse lacks some credibility.

PhantomWolf 20th October 2018 09:05 PM

How to get yourself shot at a traffic stop in 5 easy steps....

https://youtu.be/fizx7njnTN4?t=377

Matthew Best 9th December 2018 02:22 PM

Here's a crazy story.

A man in Aurora, Colorado apparently goes crazy at 1:30am, and then runs, naked, across the street, pursued by several family members, into a neighbour's house and attacks an 11-year-old child he finds sleeping there. The child's father and grandfather try to fight him off, but fail. The grandfather gets a gun and shoots the attacker, killing him. Then the police show up, see the grandfather holding a gun, and shoot him dead.

No charges for the police, of course. Here's the video of the shooting:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


And the story:

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/12/0...ng-gary-black/

mgidm86 9th December 2018 03:53 PM

I blame the guy who broke down someones front door, ran into the home and started attacking an 11 year old boy in bed.

The cops:
Whoa, I heard shots in the house! Hey, there's a guy with a gun and he won't drop it! If I don't shoot him he may kill the rest of the family, or me. I'll see if verbal commands help first. He's coming toward me and he looks like he raised his left arm.

If I shoot him I could be:

- Saving family from harm.
- Killing an innocent man.

If I don't shoot him:

- Innocents could die.
- I could die.

He's still coming towards me...
--------------------

On the other side, you have a homeowner who is wondering if more people from the party across the street are coming in his front door. Better hang onto that gun. Maybe he doesn't see the flashing police lights, and maybe his 73 year old ears aren't so good (per the story).

This shooting is tragic but not exactly the same as putting 12 slugs in a guy who is laying motionless in the middle of the street.

How do you train cops to know the difference between a good guy and a bad guy when they all have guns and are shooting each other? Shoot the guy with the gun, especially if he won't drop it and comes toward you?

You can hear the shots fired as the cops approach. Then suddenly an armed dude appears. Nobody knew who shot who.

Yep, we have a right to have guns in the home and use them. But nobody is trained to know how to handle a shooting like this, and what to do when cops arrive.

What should the cops have done?

- Retreated and hope nobody else is shot by the bad guy.
- Let the guy keep approaching and hope they themselves aren't shot.
- ?

I have no answers, but I am not surprised this happened. How could it not? The guy didn't appear to say a word - not "Hey I'm the homeowner the bad guy is dead" Nothing. Maybe he was in shock, I wouldn't blame him.

How do you train a police force to deal with an armed populace without accidents like this?

Matthew Best 9th December 2018 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 (Post 12529077)
What should the cops have done?

They should have identified themselves as the police, at a minimum.

Nessie 10th December 2018 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 (Post 12529077)
....
How do you train a police force to deal with an armed populace without accidents like this?

The US population have been armed forever, how do the police still not yet know how to deal with an armed population?

Or, disturbingly, is shooting them THE method of dealing with them? Is it just that there is so little care and consideration for others and the gun is held with such a high esteem, that the police and US society have decided that shooting each other as self defence, is how they deal with an armed police and armed citizens.

Baylor 10th December 2018 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12529455)
The US population have been armed forever, how do the police still not yet know how to deal with an armed population?

They do.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12529455)
Or, disturbingly, is shooting them THE method of dealing with them? Is it just that there is so little care and consideration for others and the gun is held with such a high esteem, that the police and US society have decided that shooting each other as self defence, is how they deal with an armed police and armed citizens.

No

fagin 10th December 2018 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12529461)
They do.
No

Bit of a contradiction...

Baylor 10th December 2018 03:46 AM

Nope

fagin 10th December 2018 04:32 AM

Yep.

Hungry81 10th December 2018 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12529464)
Nope

Care to enlighten?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

ponderingturtle 10th December 2018 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Best (Post 12529160)
They should have identified themselves as the police, at a minimum.

Bah, no "GOOD GUY" with a gun, only targets for the police!

ponderingturtle 10th December 2018 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12529455)
The US population have been armed forever, how do the police still not yet know how to deal with an armed population?

Or, disturbingly, is shooting them THE method of dealing with them? Is it just that there is so little care and consideration for others and the gun is held with such a high esteem, that the police and US society have decided that shooting each other as self defence, is how they deal with an armed police and armed citizens.

Well it wasn't until 1985 that the supreme court ruled that the police simply couldn't shoot fleeing suspects with out some idea that they were dangerous. Shooting first has been basic police doctrine for a very long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner

Nessie 10th December 2018 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12529461)
They do.
No

So, why so many incidents like this, where the good guy with the gun was shot by the police?

Giordano 10th December 2018 10:31 AM

My apologies if this was posted upthread already, but a recent, good NY Times article about these issues in Phoenix. Apparently from the point of view of the police department it is the civilians' faulty. Including an incident where a blind person failed to recognize that the person who pushed him was a cop, and so was charged with aggravated assault on an officer when the blind person pushed/scuffled back.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/10/u...gtype=Homepage

Baylor 10th December 2018 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12529607)
So, why so many incidents like this, where the good guy with the gun was shot by the police?

This is nothing but histrionics and you know it.

"Or, disturbingly, is shooting them THE method of dealing with them? Is it just that there is so little care and consideration for others and the gun is held with such a high esteem, that the police and US society have decided that shooting each other as self defence, is how they deal with an armed police and armed citizens."

ponderingturtle 10th December 2018 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giordano (Post 12529822)
My apologies if this was posted upthread already, but a recent, good NY Times article about these issues in Phoenix. Apparently from the point of view of the police department it is the civilians' faulty. Including an incident where a blind person failed to recognize that the person who pushed him was a cop, and so was charged with aggravated assault on an officer when the blind person pushed/scuffled back.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/10/u...gtype=Homepage

Makes sense, you can shoot a deaf guy for not obeying orders from a cop so why not arrest a blind man for not seeing the uniform? Logically consistent.

Distracted1 10th December 2018 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12529455)
The US population have been armed forever, how do the police still not yet know how to deal with an armed population?

Or, disturbingly, is shooting them THE method of dealing with them? Is it just that there is so little care and consideration for others and the gun is held with such a high esteem, that the police and US society have decided that shooting each other as self defence, is how they deal with an armed police and armed citizens.

In a sense, yes. It's a pretty easy to understand metric- more loose guns= more people being shot.

Nessie 10th December 2018 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12529933)
This is nothing but histrionics and you know it.

"Or, disturbingly, is shooting them THE method of dealing with them? Is it just that there is so little care and consideration for others and the gun is held with such a high esteem, that the police and US society have decided that shooting each other as self defence, is how they deal with an armed police and armed citizens."

No, it is an accurate assessment of what is happening.

Baylor 10th December 2018 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12530039)
No, it is an accurate assessment of what is happening.

Sure it is. You didn't even have the confidence to put your "accurate assessment" in a statement and resorted to putting it in the form of a question.

Just by the word choice you're using, I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

"Is it just that there is so little care and consideration for others and the gun is held with such a high esteem..."

No one who knows what they're talking about talks like this. I've seen other Europeans on their high horse say this, "the gun is held with such high esteem.." I don't know what European rag you people are getting that from but it's pathetic. What do you expect someone to say to this? This is pure histrionics.

You're not putting forth an argument in good faith and are just looking for social validation with your selected outrage and it's absolute cringe.

Giordano 10th December 2018 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12530355)
Sure it is. You didn't even have the confidence to put your "accurate assessment" in a statement and resorted to putting it in the form of a question.

Just by the word choice you're using, I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

"Is it just that there is so little care and consideration for others and the gun is held with such a high esteem..."

No one who knows what they're talking about talks like this. I've seen other Europeans on their high horse say this, "the gun is held with such high esteem.." I don't know what European rag you people are getting that from but it's pathetic. What do you expect someone to say to this? This is pure histrionics.

You're not putting forth an argument in good faith and are just looking for social validation with your selected outrage and it's absolute cringe.

Oddly you are putting forward this post that is all histrionics and has no arguments based on facts at all. It kind of undermines your point, yes?

Nessie 11th December 2018 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12530355)
Sure it is. You didn't even have the confidence to put your "accurate assessment" in a statement and resorted to putting it in the form of a question.

Just by the word choice you're using, I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

"Is it just that there is so little care and consideration for others and the gun is held with such a high esteem..."

No one who knows what they're talking about talks like this. I've seen other Europeans on their high horse say this, "the gun is held with such high esteem.." I don't know what European rag you people are getting that from but it's pathetic. What do you expect someone to say to this? This is pure histrionics.

You're not putting forth an argument in good faith and are just looking for social validation with your selected outrage and it's absolute cringe.

Fact is US police officers regularly shoot citizens who are unarmed, or were the good guy with the gun and then they claim self defence. That is their method of dealing with the shootings. They claim their own life was at risk and so the shooting was justified, even when that is dubious to say the least.

Fact is that under the 2nd, historically and socially the possession of guns is held with very high esteem in the USA.

The two clearly go together and the possession of guns wins over the right to life, with the justification being so called self defence. Even when that is good guys with guns defending themselves from each other.

The situation is clearly deeply flawed and very mixed up. You hate having that pointed out, because it is an affront to American exceptionalism, rights and freedoms.

Baylor 11th December 2018 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12530584)
Fact is US police officers regularly shoot citizens who are unarmed, or were the good guy with the gun and then they claim self defence. That is their method of dealing with the shootings. They claim their own life was at risk and so the shooting was justified, even when that is dubious to say the least.

Fact is that under the 2nd, historically and socially the possession of guns is held with very high esteem in the USA.

The two clearly go together and the possession of guns wins over the right to life, with the justification being so called self defence. Even when that is good guys with guns defending themselves from each other.

You hate having that pointed out, because it is an affront to American exceptionalism, rights and freedoms.

I'm not surprised you have these kooky, hare-brained ideas about the US. People on this forum validate and congratulate you for these kinds of delusions. I don't even know what to say to something as stupid as, "Fact is that under the 2nd, historically and socially the possession of guns is held with very high esteem in the USA." I'd just shrug my shoulders and say whatever but you followed up with this, "The two clearly go together and the possession of guns wins over the right to life, with the justification being so called self defence."

Brazilian police officers kill more than 4 times as many people as American officers and they have 2/3 the population. 4/(2/3)=6. So that mean Brazilians "hold the gun in esteem that is 6 times higher than Americans." Whatever the hell that even means.

You bill yourself as Moral Oral who cares about victims of US police violence and you're definitely not looking for validation and haven't fallen for the emotional manipulation of the media. So why haven't you expressed outrage over the killings by Brazilian police officers? You have to admit either you don't care about Brazilian life or....well there is no other option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12530584)
You hate having that pointed out, because it is an affront to American exceptionalism, rights and freedoms.

Delusional, epic fail. No one cares about this ****. Where do you people even get this stuff from? There's no such thing as "American exceptionalism," "rights and freedoms" are a farce. See how easy it is to debunk this crap.

Baylor 11th December 2018 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giordano (Post 12530462)
Oddly you are putting forward this post that is all histrionics and has no arguments based on facts at all. It kind of undermines your point, yes?

no

3point14 12th December 2018 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giordano (Post 12529822)


I like the bit below, at least it's honest. Do as the policeman tells you or die. Nice and simple.



Ken Crane, the president of the Phoenix Law Enforcement Association, the main police union, said that officers were not the problem in Phoenix. People should submit to police commands, he said: “We all go home safe if everybody remembers this one little word: compliance.”


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