International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   Social Issues & Current Events (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=82)
-   -   The behaviour of US police officers (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323251)

SuburbanTurkey 23rd September 2020 04:43 AM

Good cops quit.

The Cop Who Quit Instead of Helping to Gentrify Atlanta

Quote:

A homeowner in the area was very frank with me. He said the guys who own Bedford Pines got their tax bill last year, and their taxes were assessed based on all the gentrification that’s happening in the area. And so they wanted to move everybody out of these apartments and knock ’em down and rebuild these nice expensive apartments and the government said no. And so then they said, “Well, that’s ok, we’ll just increase the rent.” They tried to increase the rent and the Section 8 guys came back out and said, “No, you can’t do that either.”

The only way you can evict or do anything like that is if the person who owns the apartment is convicted of a felony. So the Bedford Pines guys just went to the police department and said: “We want you to police in here, and we’re going to give you a section of Bedford Pines to actually have office space. And I want you to lock up as many people as possible so we can make these apartments vacant and we can knock ’em down.”
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-ju...trify-atlanta/

The cop has since been the subject of a meritless animal and child abuse allegation, resulting in a DFCS investigation which found nothing. Seems very clear that this was retaliation for breaking the blue wall of silence.

GodMark2 23rd September 2020 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 13232270)
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6, that is the police moto so it totally exonerates them.

Really what else did the mother expect from the police? This is why you don't call the police.

I'd bet a beer that the mother didn't call the police.

She likely called "Emergency Services" (AKA 911), which sounds like the proper people to call during an emergency. Unfortunately, those services have been so cut back in their options, the only respondent they could send were the police, ambulance, or firefighters; Nothing was on fire or bleeding, so it gets dropped on the police. ES used to have more options, but that costs money that could be spent on something more flashy and thus more likely to get politicians re-elected, like tanks and sniper rifles for the police.

Captain_Swoop 23rd September 2020 10:26 AM

Only one officer charged in Breonna Taylor case and NOT for killing her.
Just for wild firing into nearby apartments.

JoeMorgue 23rd September 2020 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13233811)
Only one officer charged in Breonna Taylor case and NOT for killing her.
Just for wild firing into nearby apartments.

I'm surprised they got even that.

Bob001 23rd September 2020 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodMark2 (Post 13233724)
I'd bet a beer that the mother didn't call the police.

She likely called "Emergency Services" (AKA 911), which sounds like the proper people to call during an emergency. Unfortunately, those services have been so cut back in their options, the only respondent they could send were the police, ambulance, or firefighters; Nothing was on fire or bleeding, so it gets dropped on the police. ES used to have more options, but that costs money that could be spent on something more flashy and thus more likely to get politicians re-elected, like tanks and sniper rifles for the police.

I've wondered whether in such circumstances it might be best to tell 911 something like the person is having a "seizure" to get an ambulance, instead of something like "my kid is out of control," which gets cops ready for a fight.

Bob001 23rd September 2020 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13233811)
Only one officer charged in Breonna Taylor case and NOT for killing her.
Just for wild firing into nearby apartments.

Some commentators are making the point that the decision means cops can kill anybody they want as long as they aim better.

thaiboxerken 23rd September 2020 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13233834)
Some commentators are making the point that the decision means cops can kill anybody they want as long as they aim better.

That police-state that conservatives whine about only exists if a Democrat is in the white house. If a republican is in the white house, then it's just law and order...

Captain_Swoop 23rd September 2020 10:57 AM

So no one will be held responsible for the killing of Breonna Taylor? Just endangering her neighbours who were not killed?!

SuburbanTurkey 23rd September 2020 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13233853)
So no one will be held responsible for the killing of Breonna Taylor? Just endangering her neighbours who were not killed?!

That's right. The killing was not criminal according to the state.

Distracted1 23rd September 2020 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13233834)
Some commentators are making the point that the decision means cops can kill anybody they want as long as they aim better.

They hit her five times out of just over twenty shots.
Is that a poor average?

johnny karate 23rd September 2020 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13233855)
That's right. The killing was not criminal according to the state.

Despite the fact that the basis for the warrant was determined to be erroneous and the policeís version of events was contradicted by multiple witnesses.

The police can make up any story they want and get away with it. Itís a license to commit murder.

ponderingturtle 23rd September 2020 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13233865)
Despite the fact that the basis for the warrant was determined to be erroneous and the policeís version of events was contradicted by multiple witnesses.

The police can make up any story they want and get away with it. Itís a license to commit murder.

Yep the system still works as intended.

Bob001 23rd September 2020 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13233861)
They hit her five times out of just over twenty shots.
Is that a poor average?

Well, since she wasn't the person holding a gun, and a lot of the bullets went into the adjacent apartment where three people, including a child, were sleeping, I'd say the cops could probably have done better. Of course, as a civilian I can't possibly understand the deadly threats that our boys in blue face every second of their lives and that require instantaneous overwhelming firepower.
.

Emily's Cat 23rd September 2020 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13233853)
So no one will be held responsible for the killing of Breonna Taylor? Just endangering her neighbours who were not killed?!

I still contend that the cop who requested the warrant and the judge who approved it should be held responsible.

ponderingturtle 23rd September 2020 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat (Post 13233879)
I still contend that the cop who requested the warrant and the judge who approved it should be held responsible.

That seems to accept that the police are an uncontrolled violent force that needs to be carefully contained. Does not fit at all with not charging the ones who did the shooting. That only holds up in court in cases of swatting

As for them in addition to the officers who did the shooting, why can't we focus on actually holding them accountable at all for the death?

Captain_Swoop 23rd September 2020 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13233878)
Well, since she wasn't the person holding a gun, and a lot of the bullets went into the adjacent apartment where three people, including a child, were sleeping, I'd say the cops could probably have done better. Of course, as a civilian I can't possibly understand the deadly threats that our boys in blue face every second of their lives and that require instantaneous overwhelming firepower.
.

Those neighbours could have been a threat to the cops at any second!

Leftus 23rd September 2020 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13233853)
So no one will be held responsible for the killing of Breonna Taylor? Just endangering her neighbours who were not killed?!

Because there was no individual to blame. The cops were serving a legal, no knock warrant. They were shot at. They returned fire. The system in which a warrant can be executed where the target is in custody is a problem, but it's not the direct, individual responsibility of the cops executing the warrant.

None of the flaws can be directly attributed to any specific shooter. The problems were with the system, not the specific cops.

JoeMorgue 23rd September 2020 11:54 AM

So "I was only executing the warrant" is the new "I was only following orders."

Bob001 23rd September 2020 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leftus (Post 13233908)
Because there was no individual to blame. The cops were serving a legal, no knock warrant. They were shot at. They returned fire. The system in which a warrant can be executed where the target is in custody is a problem, but it's not the direct, individual responsibility of the cops executing the warrant.

None of the flaws can be directly attributed to any specific shooter. The problems were with the system, not the specific cops.

The prosecutor at the press conference claims it wasn't actually a no-knock warrant, and that police announced themselves. But nobody asked how much time residents were given to respond. If they pound on the door and then knock it down 10 seconds later, that hardly counts.

The real question is that if it was not really a no-knock warrant, why didn't they cops call and say "We're outside. Open up." Or why didn't they hit their sirens outside and wake everybody up? This all just stinks.

Something else that's come out is that the cops apparently had an ambulance on standby before the raid, but they sent it away. Then the cops didn't attend to Breonna as she bled out, and she got no help until the ambulance was called back 20 minutes later. Maybe if she had gotten immediate care she might have been saved.

Leftus 23rd September 2020 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13233924)
So "I was only executing the warrant" is the new "I was only following orders."

No, but it's the justification as to why they were there. It wasn't random enforcement, it wasn't profiling. It was a warrant, signed off by a judge. There was no decision, by those specific cops, to engage. If you want to hold the specific cops responsible, then their judgement and choices have to play a major role.

ponderingturtle 23rd September 2020 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leftus (Post 13234048)
No, but it's the justification as to why they were there. It wasn't random enforcement, it wasn't profiling. It was a warrant, signed off by a judge. There was no decision, by those specific cops, to engage. If you want to hold the specific cops responsible, then their judgement and choices have to play a major role.

So the lies and wrong address mean nothing. I mean remember lying to judges is legal when you are a cop.

JoeMorgue 23rd September 2020 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leftus (Post 13234048)
No, but it's the justification as to why they were there. It wasn't random enforcement, it wasn't profiling. It was a warrant, signed off by a judge. There was no decision, by those specific cops, to engage. If you want to hold the specific cops responsible, then their judgement and choices have to play a major role.

...

...

... so yeah "I was only following orders." Got it.

Captain_Swoop 23rd September 2020 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leftus (Post 13233908)
Because there was no individual to blame. The cops were serving a legal, no knock warrant. They were shot at. They returned fire. The system in which a warrant can be executed where the target is in custody is a problem, but it's not the direct, individual responsibility of the cops executing the warrant.

None of the flaws can be directly attributed to any specific shooter. The problems were with the system, not the specific cops.

So they have a license to kill?

"Not my fault, I was just following orders."

ponderingturtle 23rd September 2020 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13234080)
So they have a license to kill?

"Not my fault, I was just following orders."

Following orders works great for torture why shouldn't it work for murder?

Leftus 23rd September 2020 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13233926)
The prosecutor at the press conference claims it wasn't actually a no-knock warrant, and that police announced themselves. But nobody asked how much time residents were given to respond. If they pound on the door and then knock it down 10 seconds later, that hardly counts.

The real question is that if it was not really a no-knock warrant, why didn't they cops call and say "We're outside. Open up." Or why didn't they hit their sirens outside and wake everybody up? This all just stinks.

Something else that's come out is that the cops apparently had an ambulance on standby before the raid, but they sent it away. Then the cops didn't attend to Breonna as she bled out, and she got no help until the ambulance was called back 20 minutes later. Maybe if she had gotten immediate care she might have been saved.

Oh, most certainly the system failed Breonna. In the worst possible way. But the individual cops, may not be individually responsible. Whoever made the decision to dismiss the ambulance, and those who had the responsibility to provide aid, should be held accountable. Those trained in first aid should also share some liability. May not be suited for police employment. But murder? Not seeing that.

Bogative 23rd September 2020 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13233926)
The prosecutor at the press conference claims it wasn't actually a no-knock warrant, and that police announced themselves. But nobody asked how much time residents were given to respond. If they pound on the door and then knock it down 10 seconds later, that hardly counts.


According to the police officers, it was between 45 seconds and one minute.

According to Kenny Walker, he and Breonna were both woken up by pounding on the door and she yelled to see who it was. The police knocked on the door again and she yelled at the top of her lungs to see who it was. Then there was another knock at the door and they both yelled at the top of their lungs.

There was then enough time to put on clothes before walking down the hall toward the door.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/10/p...owTranscript=1

Leftus 23rd September 2020 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13234080)
So they have a license to kill?

"Not my fault, I was just following orders."

Where in the warrant does it permit to come in shooting? Where in this incident did they come in shooting?

They didn't shoot first.

What orders were they following that was illegal?

Bob001 23rd September 2020 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leftus (Post 13234090)
Oh, most certainly the system failed Breonna. In the worst possible way. But the individual cops, may not be individually responsible. Whoever made the decision to dismiss the ambulance, and those who had the responsibility to provide aid, should be held accountable. Those trained in first aid should also share some liability. May not be suited for police employment. But murder? Not seeing that.[

Every cop is trained in basic first aid, and some have advanced training. But they didn't help her. And murder might be a stretch, but I think there's an argument to be made for manslaughter. Let a trial jury decide whether killing somebody is justified.

Bob001 23rd September 2020 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogative (Post 13234097)
.....
According to Kenny Walker, he and Breonna were both woken up by pounding on the door and she yelled to see who it was. The police knocked on the door again and she yelled at the top of her lungs to see who it was. Then there was another knock at the door and they both yelled at the top of their lungs.

There was then enough time to put on clothes before walking down the hall toward the door.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/10/p...owTranscript=1


If that's true, there was no urgency to the situation. They could have waited for however long it would take an average person to awake from a sound sleep, figure out what's going on and respond to it. And the cops might have called them or used sirens and bullhorns outside. Whatever happened to "This is the police. Come out with your hands up!"

JoeMorgue 23rd September 2020 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leftus (Post 13234101)
Where in the warrant does it permit to come in shooting? Where in this incident did they come in shooting?

They didn't shoot first.

What orders were they following that was illegal?

*Confused*

You're the one arguing that the cops where just executing the warrant.

Shadowdweller 23rd September 2020 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat (Post 13233879)
I still contend that the cop who requested the warrant and the judge who approved it should be held responsible.

As I understand it, the FBI have been investigating that aspect of the shooting. So charges over the validity of the warrant may yet be forthcoming...though I'm not holding my breath.

ponderingturtle 24th September 2020 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13234177)
Every cop is trained in basic first aid, and some have advanced training. But they didn't help her. And murder might be a stretch, but I think there's an argument to be made for manslaughter. Let a trial jury decide whether killing somebody is justified.

But they know better to treat the bullet wounds of an innocent bystander, you have to arrest them. That was made clear in the shooting of Charles Kinsey. You shoot a bystander you handcuff them and figure out something to arrest them for not provide treatment. Cop SOP.

Suddenly 24th September 2020 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13233813)
I'm surprised they got even that.

It looks better than a total no bill. Looks like they considered things rather than just default to protect the police.

I'd love to see the grand jury transcript. It was likely presented in a way to minimize the killing and to play up the endangerment.

Like the saying goes, a prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich. It is a pity they are selective about which what kinds of pork they apply that principle.

Suddenly 24th September 2020 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leftus (Post 13234048)
There was no decision, by those specific cops, to engage.

This is nonsense. They are not robots. There are tons of cases that hammer the point that cops and other law enforcement have broad discretion as to what they do. This should cut both ways, but in practice seems to only apply to cases where cops go too far.

This probably isn't provable as a murder, but there are tons of other kinds of homicide that apply to reckless behavior. If this was a civilian the prosecutors would be taking a far more aggressive approach as to framing this as a homicide.

jimbob 25th September 2020 02:44 AM

Cop rides his bicycle over injured protestor's head

https://twitter.com/RexChapman/statu...53779632287744

Matthew Best 25th September 2020 04:56 AM

Policeman who said he was "ambushed" and shot in the leg this weekend, actually shot himself and lied about it.

https://www.newsweek.com/officer-hit...olice-1533849? [Newsweek]

Mike! 25th September 2020 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 13236230)
Cop rides his bicycle over injured protestor's head

https://twitter.com/RexChapman/statu...53779632287744

The cop did not "ride his bicycle" over anyone's head. The cop was walking the bike, not riding it, and the head in question had a helmet on. :rolleyes:

chrispy 25th September 2020 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 13236332)
The cop did not "ride his bicycle" over anyone's head. The cop was walking the bike, not riding it, and the head in question had a helmet on. :rolleyes:

Well, its OK then. :rolleyes:

SuburbanTurkey 25th September 2020 05:33 AM

Seattle bike cop on administrative leave while being investigated for possible criminal charges.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5...mpression=true

bluesjnr 25th September 2020 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 13236230)
Cop rides his bicycle over injured protestor's head

https://twitter.com/RexChapman/statu...53779632287744

Small point - he was not an injured protestor but still no more deserving of such treatment. The "good cops" that would have reported or, at least, remonstrated with him must have been elsewhere.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:44 PM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-20, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.