You do know that correlation doesn't equal causation, don't you?

A good point.
One that we all should take to heart.

Forgive me wanting to riff on this. I think this is both true and essential to how police brutality is in no small part an economic issue.

In almost all contexts "they can just quit" is formalistic and ignores the material reality of life in the US. Cops included. Quitting a job and changing careers can have a terrible effect on a person's life. No health insurance for one. Having a family and punting that is a crazy move.

If there was UHC, a UBI and an otherwise decent safety net where cops who quit wouldn't be staring at certain economic disaster for themselves and their families maybe the toxic culture abates a bit. The so called "good cops" no longer have an excuse to collaborate because there is less worry in taking a stand. Firing bad cops becomes easier for the same reasons.

The one thing that is hard to calculate is how much damage is done by incompetent people who are forced into working a job they simply can't do and bring negative value. They can't quit and firing them ends up being perceived as morally cruel because of impoverishment.

That is part of why cops are like this, and even contemplating the economic damage done by cop culture is staggering. Loss of life, brutality, the profound disruptive effect unnecessary arrests, and so on. Just paying bad cops to not be cops would arguably be an economic plus.

Ben Shapiro tweeted

Ben Shapiro
@benshapiro
· Oct 8
There is not good evidence that George Floyd would be alive today if carotid and chokeholds were banned. Autopsies showed extraordinary levels of fentanyl in his bloodstream.

And here we have a minor twist on "the 13-50 argument", a common line among white supremacists. I'll let y'all figure out what "13" and "50" refer to.

The trick, of cpurse, is that a thinking person would quickly realize that, when police are likely to escalate any situation they're introduced to, they quickly become recognized as a part of the problem, and people turn to their own devices to resolve disputes. Thus, if a person is actually worried about violence, they should, by all rights, strongly support police reform.

Haha, no, they're on the side of profit - they're no different than Nike putting out an ad with Colin Kaepernick while using third-world sweatshops to make their apparel, or YouTube promoting LGBT Pride month while also defunding trans content creators for the rest of the year.

When you continually use standard white supremacist arguments...well, yes, it does show how successful propaganda works. And this includes how well it works on you, to the point where you're talking about BLM demolishing your neighborhood (I don't expect anyone here to disclose where they live - but if it's in any major city, it's likely hosted a large number of BLM marches and events without issues).

Neither does the word fascist. But the reality is that the same people who would dehumanize other people with those words (much like they presume "racists" want to dehumanize people who look differently to them), are the same people likely to murder you in the street, or in a riot, namely, ANTIFA/BLM.

Defamation lawsuits aren't my concern, at the moment. Getting murdered by stupid angry people in the street who don't understand that our corrupt banking system and wall street are the reasons why they're broke, and not systemic racism is my concern.

What causes black men, six percent of the population, to commit 50% of the homicides? Oh, right. White racism.

I'm neither a white supremacist, nor a fascist, nor do those labels concern me anymore. I'm not going to be shamed into allowing a communist color revolution in the US to go unchecked. Furthermore, I and many others are well aware of what the stakes are if guns are banned in the US, and so any such attempt either made by the Biden administration or any other administration will be a call to civil war, and it will be bloody.

You don't get to stifle real dissent by simply accusing everyone you disagree with of racism and white supremacy. You have been warned.

John D. Rockefeller, one of the world's wealthiest men, founder of Standard Oil, and proponent of communism once said "Competition is a sin."

It just so happens that communism represents the ultimate monopoly for those in control, and monopolies are highly profitable. Corporations are on the side of profit for sure - and communism represents the ultimate profit.

That's fine. If you dismiss my concerns as those of a racist white supremacist and then attempt to disarm me, be prepared for the bloody consequences. I won't like it, and you definitely won't like it, but it will be your fault. What happened in Kenosha, where BLM riots first came to suburbia, will be an afterthought compared to what happens next.

That's not actually the case. If Trump had had is way, the Central Park 5 would have been listed as some of the blacks who had committed the homicides.

We also know that poverty plays a huge part in violence and crime.

What causes poverty? Oh, I know. White racism.

If a cop stops blacks disproportionately and searches them disproportionately and arrests them disproportionately even though finding contraband less often than whites, then of course they'd come up as having committed more crime. Because they're the ones arrested.

Taking some not-so hypothetical numbers:

In Missouri,
Black motorists are 1.87x more likely to be stopped than white motorists. (1.78 ÷ 0.95)

When stopped they are 1.4x more likely to be searched (8.86÷6.23) - Which brings it up to 2.66x more likely to be stopped and searched than whites.

When searched they're slightly less likely to have contraband found (0.97x or 34.93÷35.93)

https://ago.mo.gov/home/vehicle-stop...cutive-summary


That is a big improvement on 2010 when the numbers were:

1.69x more likely to be stopped in the first place
1.86x more likely to be searched when stopped
0.71x as likely to have contraband found when searched
1.93x more likely to be arrested when stopped

I make that 3.14x more likely to be stopped and searched as a black motorist than a white and 3.26x more likely to be stopped and arrested.

Blacks who are stopped *are* indeed more likely to have contraband than whites, but that's because the police are looking for it more often

https://ago.mo.gov/home/vehicle-stop...cutive-summary

Perhaps you should examine post #2481

True, but there's other evidence that also suggests racism is a problem. Speeding tickets for example

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...14032617300016

The above also suggests sexism is a problem

That really doesn't address my point.

The world is more complex than your extremely simplistic reasoning would paint it.

What caused black people to be enslaved and brought to the USA in the first place? Don't tell me that was white racism too.

Dave

Good thing I support the 4th amendment, and would de-criminalize all drug use and sales, and retroactively free all non-violent drug offenders.

Maybe they commit more traffic violations? But then, speed limits are set arbitrarily low to give police discretion to pull anyone over, something I don't support. Maybe they're more likely to be stopped because they commit more crimes, and therefore, there are more police where they are? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? The answer isn't necessarily racism.

Maybe they're ignorant of their 4th amendment rights, and they consent to searches? If not, then those are serious civil rights violations, and I support prosecuting police who violate anyone's 4th amendment rights *harshly*. I would also raise the standards for cause for any search. Like, not having a police dog "alert" grounds for cause. Of course, if we legalized drugs, then most of the police state would cease to be a problem.

First, don't flatter yourself, I don't consider you much in the way od dissent - mostly because you aren't saying anything new.

Second, if you don't want to be regarded as a racist, you should avoid racist talking points such as the "13-50" argument justifying state violence against black people.

Well, this may have been what some folks thought, back in 1920-1940. They seem more interested in kleptocracy these days.

As far as I know, no BLM group has been connected to any riot, apart from cases where they've cleaned up after riots (often kicked off by police stupidly attacking nonviolent protestors, as we've seen in several cities), or actively protected stores from rioters (as happened in Ferguson).

Note that I'm asking about about actual riots organized by BLM groups, not just random knuckleheads that decide they want a new tv from Target or random black guys that are called "BLM rioters" by goofballs like Paul Joseph Watson and the like.

Well, yes, racism is in fact the primary cause of poverty among black (and Native) Americans. That's the entire point of the idea, after all - take wealth from them, give it to some white people, and tell the remaining white people that they're not even wealthier because of those pesky minorities.

And the fact that we're talking about the USA, where a very large part of the black population is descended from people enslaved by the ancestors of the white population and subsequently kept in poverty by discrimination in employment and incarceration is of course purely coincidental. Move along folks, no racism to see here because it's possible for discrimination to work in other ways even though in this case it doesn't.

Dave

ETA: "Your honour, the prosecution claims that I broke into my neighbour's house and stole her jewellery, and I did in fact do so. Of course, other people have committed robberies even before me, and there are countless other examples of robbery throughout history, as it is a human problem."

So that's a "no".

The best way to enact Police Reform?

Send most patrol cops to affluent neighborhoods and tell them that they have a quota of arrests to fulfill if they want a yearly bonus.

Cleaners, gardeners, delivery men - they'll soon have it covered.

Dave

Somerville, MA police officer and president of the local cop union is charged with felony assault after pepper spraying a handcuffed man last October.

Only the best to represent the union!

Video of the assault in the news link.

https://amp.wbur.org/news/2020/10/09...sault-incident

Not going to endear them to the owners of the mansions not being maintained.

The police unions would do themselves such a huge favor if they would learn when it's time to abandon the wounded. They might have some credibility when they defend members who deserve being defended if they'd cut loose the ones not worth saving.

I truly believe it points to the probability that most cops know they're guilty of actions that would, in a just world, see them fired and probably imprisoned. They have to defend the worst because they or their buddies have done horrible things themselves.

Moved to riot thread

Whilst I have no problems condemning the officers concerned, it is the job of the unions in many cases to provide legal support to their member and get the best deal possible for them. I would not condemn them for doing their job well. I would condemn them for negotiations that in general protect those who abuse their position, in the long term an ethical and law abiding police force is good for the union as it will cost them less, and they can focus on improving the lot for all rather than defending the bad.

You are advocating that they get those who abuse their position the best deal possible then condemn them for it. You really need to pick one or the other.

Either the union should be getting the officers who abuse their positions the best deal possible or stop protecting them, those are mutually incompatible.

Except, again, that's basically the point behind police unions - which is why you often find people running them who would have been immediately fired from most jobs (I can't imaginer a union worker in any office that could get away with beating a juvenile while screaming racial slurs at them, for example). Nor can I imagine, say, a training video suggesting that they must be ready to repeatedly shoot a manager that makes the slightest "wrong" move - or a person that brings out their trash late and gets angry, as examples.

The key difference? Where most unions are designed to help ordinary workers act against authoritarians, police tend to be the violent enforcers of those authoritarians - thus why cops often outright gunned down striking workers during the early days of the union movement. It's also why many police union heads have long records of misconduct themselves - imagine a janitor who became a union head *after* repeatedly locking other people inside buildings he had set on fire.

That seems... optimistic. Given the known bad actors who have been elected as head of large police unions.

In general the proper reaction to "scared and dangerous animal" is to either calm it, contain it or kill it.

You're glossing over an important consideration.

What if those people deserved to be locked inside a burning building?

:rolleyes:

I heard they had substantial amounts of fentanyl in their bloodstreams.

And some of them appeared to be reaching for matches.

Dave

And some of them refused to go in the building quietly when instructed.

Don't forget the ones told to go in by one janitor and at the same time to leave by another janitor!

Must be nice having a job where drunkenly brandishing a gun is a forgivable whoopsie.

https://twitter.com/justin_fenton/st...97854840229888

How about passed out drunk behind the wheel of your work vehicle?

https://wgntv.com/news/no-charges-to...f-cruiser-tmw/

Family members were allowed to view police video of troopers' interaction with Ronald Greene (original story above), and guess what? It doesn't show a car crash at all! It shows police "choking and beating the man, repeatedly jolting him with stun guns and dragging him face-down across the pavement." (Police initially told Greene’s family he had “died on impact” after crashing into a tree.)

https://apnews.com/article/john-bel-...c2c0c27d6f08c0

Police officer who leaked video of police abuse charged with crime.

Whistleblowers go to jail, abusers stay on the force.

https://twitter.com/SAssadNews/statu...79885566730240

Good cops don't stay cops for long.