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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

Garrison 4th April 2020 02:51 AM

And a new player enters the game in the UK as Kier Starmer wins the Labour leadership contest, hell of a time to take over that job...

P.J. Denyer 4th April 2020 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13042549)
NHS England, 11th March: We'll test 10,000 a day
Boris Johnson 18th March: “We’re moving up to 25,000 a day.”
Matt Hancock, today: We'll hit 100,000 tests a day

The government still hasn't hit the 10,000 tests

Yes, but if you keep increasing the targets people who don't read past the headline will assume this means you've met the previous one. All the fun of lying without the (very occasional) reporter calling you out on it.

Squeegee Beckenheim 4th April 2020 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13044426)
Yeah, I know all that, but as noted above, even foot & mouth didn't stop ramblers and it seems to me to be an unnecessary freedom. Lots of things are hundreds or thousands of years old, but it doesn't mean those things need to exist forever.

Seems to be treated a bit like USA's sacred Constitution.

It's certainly true that there are rambling fanatics. We were talking about whether or not it's right for farmers to shoot people for using public rights of way during the current pandemic. I think to make that case you're going to have to do a little more work than "some people take it too far!"

Quote:

I think you can be sceptical of China's data without needing to prove they had 15 million deaths[...]
Who has tried to do that? The thread itself literally says that even the Chinese government doesn't know how many deaths there really have been.

Quote:

And since the alleged source was the CIA, I wouldn't trust them further than the Chinese government. They don't exactly have the greatest record at being open & honest, either.
As always, it should go without saying that people should be sceptical of any information that they're presented with.

Your assertion, though, was that this was disinformation planted by Putin.

Squeegee Beckenheim 4th April 2020 09:26 AM

This article is about how UK deaths are reported and why that means that the current death toll is likely much lower than the actual death toll

I imagine that it's a similar situation in other countries, too.

William Parcher 4th April 2020 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13044453)
Kier Starmer

Upon naming him, his parents imagined him to become an author of novels.

Sherkeu 4th April 2020 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13042549)
NHS England, 11th March: We'll test 10,000 a day
Boris Johnson 18th March: “We’re moving up to 25,000 a day.”
Matt Hancock, today: We'll hit 100,000 tests a day

The government still hasn't hit the 10,000 tests

In California testing looked promising for a while!!

It is the results we can't get.
60k tests 'pending' for more than 2 weeks. Less that 30k tests have results. Forty million residents and that is all the results completed since testing started. So worthless to test and then not process those tests!

Garrison 4th April 2020 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 13044739)
Upon naming him, his parents imagined him to become an author of novels.

Well the first name might indicate parents who are dyed in the wool Labour supporters.

Captain_Swoop 4th April 2020 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13044771)
Well the first name might indicate parents who are dyed in the wool Labour supporters.

That's what I thought.

P.J. Denyer 4th April 2020 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13043689)
The Deniers have pretty much taknn over the COvid 19 thread in the Science section here.

I haven't done any such thi...... Opps, my bad!

P.J. Denyer 4th April 2020 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13043998)
I imagine UK must be the only place those rules apply. I can't think of any other country, but maybe there are.

You think the UK is the only place that has rights of way for pedestrians? Some of the paths go back thousands of years, one near me has been in use for over five thousand years. Villages are often surrounded by farmland and these paths existed long before the farms did, they're usually a fraction of the distance of walking round via the roads. They are paths between, or down the edges of fields, it's not like walkers are trapesing through the farmer's living room ffs.

Captain_Swoop 4th April 2020 11:32 AM

Today a police van was going around Peckham Rye Common blaring “no sunbathing... exercise only” from it's loudspeaker at anyone who was standing still.

How are sunbathing or exercise in anyway fundamentally different in terms of virus risk? Or is it just that we have to show the correct amount of unhappiness at all times now?

No smiling, miserable or concerned facial expressions only please.

Petty Fascists.

The Atheist 4th April 2020 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13044453)
And a new player enters the game in the UK as Kier Starmer wins the Labour leadership contest, hell of a time to take over that job...

Seems like a good bloke, has the right name...

Waiting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13044512)
It's certainly true that there are rambling fanatics. We were talking about whether or not it's right for farmers to shoot people for using public rights of way during the current pandemic.

Sorry, but that kind of stuff is anathema to me. We have this crazy system where, if a path is a public right-of-way, it's fenced off from the farm so the people using it stick to the correct path and farm animals don't kill them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13044512)
Your assertion, though, was that this was disinformation planted by Putin.

I didn't say it was disinformation and agreed that China hasn't been honest.

Russian troll farms are spreading disinformation, and if you know anything about the spread of conspiracy theories and disinformation, you'd know that it's very helpful to use actual evidence at the start to bolster the absurd claims later.

Anyone unaware that statistics produced by lots of countries will be either incorrect or falsified hasn't been watching for the past century or two, so what is gained by articles about China's incorrect numbers?

Nothing.

But it plays beautifully into CT and racist propaganda.

P.J. Denyer 4th April 2020 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13044929)
Sorry, but that kind of stuff is anathema to me. We have this crazy system where, if a path is a public right-of-way, it's fenced off from the farm so the people using it stick to the correct path and farm animals don't kill them.

Often they are, and everyone is happy, often the right of way boarders a field of crops and it isn't necessary, and everyone is happy, and sometimes, only occasionally but sometimes, the owner of the adjacent land decides that sticking a bull, or cows with calves, in a field with a right of way might dissuade people from exercising their legal right to walk down it.

Squeegee Beckenheim 5th April 2020 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13044929)
Sorry, but that kind of stuff is anathema to me. We have this crazy system where, if a path is a public right-of-way, it's fenced off from the farm so the people using it stick to the correct path and farm animals don't kill them.

That you think it's "crazy" isn't an argument in favour of shooting people using it.

Quote:

I didn't say it was disinformation and agreed that China hasn't been honest.
So when you called it "crap" you meant "accurate information"?

Quote:

Anyone unaware that statistics produced by lots of countries will be either incorrect or falsified hasn't been watching for the past century or two, so what is gained by articles about China's incorrect numbers?
Are you seriously asking what value there is in informing people of facts? Or is your contention that absolutely nobody in the world is gullible, uninformed, or displays a lack of critical thinking?

You seem to be arguing against the dissemination of accurate information because there's a potential at some unspecified point in the future for inaccurate information to be spread by people who have previously used accurate information in order to make themselves seem credible. Is that an accurate summation of your position? And, to be clear, are you intending to implicate Andrew Neil in this?

Captain_Swoop 5th April 2020 03:39 AM

UK govt says it will ban exercise outside the home if people continue to ignore the rules.
The evidence for rules being ignored is a video of a police van driving round Peckham Rye Common using it's loudspeaker to blare at anyone who stops for a moment or sits on the grass.
Video of a park in Manchester that looks to be crowded with people is also being shown. But as lots of video from people at the park shows its the telephoto lens used in the 'official' video that makes people look close together through foreshortening.
As for the Peckham thing, how does stopping for a sit down on the grass increase the risk of the virus spreading if people are still distancing.
Also similar stuff on various sea fronts, police swooping on people that stop to sit on the benches even if they are alone.
Seems to me the govt is eager to keep people locked up if they look anything but miserable.

Darat 5th April 2020 04:03 AM

For once I find myself siding with the government’s approach, it needs to be heavy handed at the moment. This is nothing about people being miserable or happy it is to safeguard the population.

Pixel42 5th April 2020 04:21 AM

I do understand the necessity, but I shall be annoyed if a general "not even for exercise" lockdown is introduced, as I'm one of those who can do it safely.

I live in a small hamlet about a mile from Malmesbury and my normal walk is into town - it takes in a small nature reserve, two stretches of river, an alpaca farm and a thousand-year-old abbey as well as shops and the library. Since the lockdown I've turned left instead of right when I leave my home and started to explore the lanes and paths that go out into the countryside. When I went out for a walk yesterday I managed to keep at least 2m away from the occasional walker/dog walker/jogger I passed without difficulty.

Armitage72 5th April 2020 06:17 AM

"Shoot them dead": Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte orders police and military to kill citizens who defy coronavirus lockdown


Quote:

In the Philippines, the 57 million residents of the country's main island, Luzon, are under strict lockdown orders to prevent the spread of COVID-19. Despite that, many in a Manila slum took to the streets Wednesday to protest a lack of supplies, arguing they had not received any food packs since the lockdown started two weeks ago.

Later that night, Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte took to the airwaves with a chilling warning for his citizens: Defy the lockdown orders again and the police will shoot you dead.
"I will not hesitate. My orders are to the police and military, as well as village officials, if there is any trouble, or occasions where there's violence and your lives are in danger, shoot them dead," he said in a mix of Filipino and English in the televised address. "Do not intimidate the government. Do not challenge the government. You will lose."

And then government officials insisted that he was just using hyperbole and didn't actually mean to murder citizens.

Quote:

"Probably the president just overemphasized on implementing the law in this time of crisis," Philippine National Police Chief Archie Gamboa said, adding that officers understood that they were not actually being instructed to kill troublemakers.

Why does that seem familiar?

catsmate 5th April 2020 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13043998)
SK also has the luxury of a compliant population happy to allow their personal data to be used for the greater good.

Germany too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13043998)
i.e. something that coupld not possibly happen in the west.

:rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13043998)
I imagine UK must be the only place those rules apply. I can't think of any other country, but maybe there are.

You really need to learn more before pontificating.

lomiller 5th April 2020 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13044732)

Nobody has good data, but no one is going around implying "Italy is lying, that's why it's not our fault for mismanaging the COVID crisis". What's at issue isn't whether China's number can be trusted or not but what would matter at this point. It appear to be more of a propaganda tool than anything truly important to the crisis in other countries.

Blue Mountain 5th April 2020 09:35 AM

February, the lost month of testing
 
The Wikipedia article on 2020 coronavirus pandemic in the United States has this to say in its introduction:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The United States got off to a slow start in COVID-19 testing. Until the end of February, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) procedures forbade laboratories other than the CDC from releasing test results to patients, even if they followed internationally recognized test protocols. The CDC developed and distributed test kits of its own, but many of them were found to have a manufacturing flaw in a non-essential component, which made the kit illegal to use until the protocol was changed. On February 29 the FDA began allowing public health agencies, hospitals, and private companies to develop tests and perform testing, and by mid-March private companies were shipping hundreds of thousands of tests. The FDA initially had very restrictive guidelines on who was allowed to be tested; on March 5 it said anyone with a doctor's order could be tested.

We're all aware of how President Trump downplayed the pandemic threat for six weeks in February and March. However, it appears both the FDA and the CDC had a significant role in the slow initial response: the FDA for tightly adhering to regulations and the CDC for having a flawed test, and an insufficient number of them.

My question is, can these problems be directly linked to the Trump administration? For example, would a better funded CDC have more tests available? Would a president more concerned with a potential pandemic and less about the stock market have been meeting with the FDA in an attempt to make the regulatory environment more favourable to widespread testing?

Nessie 5th April 2020 09:36 AM

When the Chief Medical Officer in Scotland receives a police warning for twice breaching the Health Protection Regs, as she travelled two weekends in a row to her holiday house, it is clear that too many people think they do not need to follow the rules.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52171694

The Chief Constable of Police Scotland said "Individuals must not make personal exemptions bespoke to their own circumstances." It is clear too many people are doing just that and sadly, maybe we do need to be put in our places and enforcement needs to strict.

Captain_Swoop 5th April 2020 10:08 AM

What harm was she doing?
Did she come in to contact with anyone?

KDLarsen 5th April 2020 02:16 PM

PM Johnson has been admitted to hospital for tests, as he's still showing symptons 10 days after testing positive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonyMoose (Post 13043488)
Yup, these are unprecedented times, no doubt about it.

She probably feels the need to reassure people and to reinforce the importance of following the experts' advice (stay home, social distancing, etc). Maybe a message from her will help to drive home the importance of how every individual's actions will determine the outcome of this situation? It can't hurt to try.

I've always had a soft spot for the old gal, so I'll be listening to what she has to say on Sunday.

IIRC it was mentioned on one of the BBC news programmes that the Queen deliver these speeches at the request of the government.

Matthew Best 5th April 2020 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13045850)
What harm was she doing?

She was failing to follow the advice she was giving to everyone else, thus making it seem like that advice was bogus.

ceptimus 5th April 2020 03:00 PM

She's resigned now. Shows the corruption and stupidity of politicians that she didn't resign (or be sacked) right away. Obvious from the outset that she had to go.

Only way she could have survived would have been to concoct a seemingly valid reason why she needed to visit the area and say that her second home was nearer to that location than her first one. I'm suspect she and her boss considered that lie, but decided that they might get found out on it.

Mader Levap 5th April 2020 03:12 PM

Rules are for proles.
What's point of having power and influence if you still have to follow rules like unwashed masses?

a_unique_person 5th April 2020 03:16 PM

Boris has been sent to hospital.

EHocking 5th April 2020 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mader Levap (Post 13046118)
Rules are for proles.
What's point of having power and influence if you still have to follow rules like unwashed masses?

Quite true.
Had a friend who’s father was a British Airways captain.
As he drove through a car park against the flow, his daughter pointed out that the arrows were all pointing the other way.

“Those are for people who don’t know what they’re doing.”

catsmate 5th April 2020 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceptimus (Post 13046116)
She's resigned now. Shows the corruption and stupidity of politicians that she didn't resign (or be sacked) right away. Obvious from the outset that she had to go.

Only way she could have survived would have been to concoct a seemingly valid reason why she needed to visit the area and say that her second home was nearer to that location than her first one. I'm suspect she and her boss considered that lie, but decided that they might get found out on it.

Oh good grief....
:rolleyes:

catsmate 5th April 2020 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_unique_person (Post 13046123)
Boris has been sent to hospital.

Indeed, an interesting development, with Raab next in line. Well at least the Bouffant Buffoon may experience what he and his cronies have done to the NHS first hand.
I wonder why Symonds hasn't been tested?

p0lka 5th April 2020 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13037457)
We are being directly asked by Michael Gove to follow the advice of experts. Michael Gove, a man who famously told the nation "we've had enough of experts"

Is it any wonder people aren't following their advice, they've spent a decade proving they are untrustworthy.

I'm no fan of the tory party, but Gove's quote was taken out of context.

he said "had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms saying they know whats best and getting it consistently wrong"
https://youtu.be/GGgiGtJk7MA?t=61

ceptimus 5th April 2020 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 13046146)
Oh good grief....
:rolleyes:

What does that comment even mean?

William Parcher 5th April 2020 04:39 PM

1 Attachment(s)
..

Squeegee Beckenheim 5th April 2020 05:06 PM

Transcript of the Queen's speech in full

TL/DR version: "essential workers are being awesome and to everybody else: stay indoors, you ******* numpties".

Squeegee Beckenheim 5th April 2020 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_unique_person (Post 13046123)
Boris has been sent to hospital.

I hope that he recovers, partly because I wouldn't wish that kind of death on anybody and partly because it would leave us with Raab, but I hope that it's serious enough for him to suffer enough discomfort for him to finally realise how serious this is now that it's not just happening in the abstract to other people and pull his finger and head out of his arse to start actually genuinely working 100% for the benefit of public health.

Nessie 6th April 2020 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Best (Post 13046092)
She was failing to follow the advice she was giving to everyone else, thus making it seem like that advice was bogus.

There has been a huge debate over travelling to exercise, or go to second homes or camp. Such travel is being blamed for spreading the virus, especially to the Highlands and Islands.

Whilst it is safe for individuals and families to travel to exercise etc, it becomes increasingly less safe the more people do it. The risk of accidents and not being able to socially distance increases.

People are being urged to use common sense, but too often, too many people are going out to supposedly exercise and are getting too crowded and/or they are just ignoring social distancing. Sadly too many people have ruined it for the majority and so increasingly, no one is being allowed to go to parks, beaches or even the relative safety of a second home and a walk around the nearby golf course, which is where the CMO and her family were pictured.

The government's advice/instruction have been not to travel for exercise and certainly not to camp or go to second homes. The Health Protection Regs also do not list such activities as reasonable excuses to leave the home.

When the CMO goes against the advice/instructions she has been a major part of and her actions breach the law, she has to go.

Mojo 6th April 2020 01:33 AM

Quote:

The low-paid, young people and women are likely to be the hardest hit by the coronavirus shutdown of businesses including restaurants, hotels, pubs, retailers and transport services.

Low earners are seven times as likely as high earners to work in a business sector that has shut down, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies. The body’s analysis found a third of the bottom 10% of earners worked in the worst-hit sectors, against one in 20 (5%) of those in the top 10%.
https://www.theguardian.com/business...dest-warns-ifs

P.J. Denyer 6th April 2020 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0lka (Post 13046158)
I'm no fan of the tory party, but Gove's quote was taken out of context.

he said "had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms saying they know whats best and getting it consistently wrong"
https://youtu.be/GGgiGtJk7MA?t=61

Yes they prefer 'experts' from organisations with ordinary names. Like "Taxpayers Alliance".

The Don 6th April 2020 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 13046559)
There has been a huge debate over travelling to exercise, or go to second homes or camp. Such travel is being blamed for spreading the virus, especially to the Highlands and Islands.

And unnecessary driving also puts other people at risk whether it's fellow drivers, the emergency services who may have to respond to any accident you may have or breakdown services coming out after the car has broken down.

If there is a large influx of people then there's also a risk that the local medical services could be overwhelmed.

Staying put is such a good idea - then again as someone living in an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty with access to lots of lovely walks from my front door I would say that :o


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