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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

P.J. Denyer 6th April 2020 02:07 AM

Something I've found is that with the roads so much quieter a small number of drivers are using it as an opportunity to speed and not give way.

catsmate 6th April 2020 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceptimus (Post 13046160)
What does that comment even mean?

A comment on your ranting against experts. Again.

Nessie 6th April 2020 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13046579)
And unnecessary driving also puts other people at risk whether it's fellow drivers, the emergency services who may have to respond to any accident you may have or breakdown services coming out after the car has broken down.

If there is a large influx of people then there's also a risk that the local medical services could be overwhelmed.

Staying put is such a good idea - then again as someone living in an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty with access to lots of lovely walks from my front door I would say that :o

I am also lucky, with a garden and lots of public space around us, that is not an AONB, so it does not attract tourists.

I do feel sorry for those in flats in the city and think that parks need to be organised so they can be used, but safely. For example, councils could have upturned benches, allowed designated sunbathing in controlled areas and introduced one way walking on paths.

The Atheist 6th April 2020 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13045577)
Is that an accurate summation of your position??

Here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lomiller (Post 13045789)
hat's at issue isn't whether China's number can be trusted or not but what would matter at this point. It appear to be more of a propaganda tool than anything truly important to the crisis in other countries.


Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 13045686)
You really need to learn more before pontificating.

You might want to check your early posts in the general Covid thread before getting too self-righteous.

ETA - this was your first post in the thread:

Quote:

That is, a vast amount of hype? There were less than ten thousand SARS infections and under eight hundred deaths. Measles killed six thousand in the Congo.
How's that hype looking now?

catsmate 6th April 2020 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13046223)
Transcript of the Queen's speech in full

TL/DR version: "essential workers are being awesome and to everybody else: stay indoors, you ******* numpties".

But said with politeness and panache.

Squeegee Beckenheim 6th April 2020 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13046587)
Here:

I'll take that as a yes, and just note your evasion on the other points.

ceptimus 6th April 2020 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 13046584)
A comment on your ranting against experts. Again.

I was quite right to do so - and almost everyone agrees. Even Nicola Sturgeon, following her serious political misjudgement, has now been forced into a U-turn, and was trying to pretend on morning TV that she hadn't made a mistake by initially striving to keep the Chief Medical Officer in her job.

A clever Scottish newspaper headline had a picture of the Chief Medical Officer with the caption 'Hypocritic Oaf" :roll:

Darat 6th April 2020 05:07 AM

I am assuming Johnson is actually seriously ill. The government advice via the NHSs is that you only go to hospital if your symptoms become severe and that usually means breathing difficulties.

ThatGuy11200 6th April 2020 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13046661)
I am assuming Johnson is actually seriously ill. The government advice via the NHSs is that you only go to hospital if your symptoms become severe and that usually means breathing difficulties.

The BBC article I read said he'd been admitted because of "persistent symptoms", which surely means those symptoms haven't changed.

Darat 6th April 2020 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 (Post 13046680)
The BBC article I read said he'd been admitted because of "persistent symptoms", which surely means those symptoms haven't changed.


Now been changed: ....Boris Johnson is still in hospital suffering from coronavirus and had a “comfortable night” but No 10 has dropped the description of his symptoms as mild...

And ..... The Guardian was told last week that Johnson was more seriously ill than either he or his officials were prepared to admit, and that he was being seen by doctors who were concerned about his breathing......

From: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e_iOSApp_Other

Garrison 6th April 2020 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13046699)
Now been changed: ....Boris Johnson is still in hospital suffering from coronavirus and had a “comfortable night” but No 10 has dropped the description of his symptoms as mild...

And ..... The Guardian was told last week that Johnson was more seriously ill than either he or his officials were prepared to admit, and that he was being seen by doctors who were concerned about his breathing......

From: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e_iOSApp_Other

You can take that 'concerned about his breathing' comment either way, depending on whether the recommended treatment is an Oxygen mask or a pillow...:rolleyes:

Squeegee Beckenheim 6th April 2020 06:37 AM

It's my understanding that in terms of this particular disease "mild" can include pneumonia. Here's WHO official Bruce Aylward:

Quote:

“Mild” was a positive test, fever, cough — maybe even pneumonia, but not needing oxygen.
If Johnson is no longer being described as "mild", and has been admitted to hospital (which they're trying to avoid at the moment, because being in hospital puts patients at greater risk), then I think we can safely assume that he's not doing very well.

Mader Levap 6th April 2020 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13046224)
I hope that it's serious enough for him to suffer enough discomfort for him to finally realise how serious this is now that it's not just happening in the abstract to other people and pull his finger and head out of his arse to start actually genuinely working 100% for the benefit of public health.

Haha. No. This is like caught criminal. He won't repent, he will simply promise himself he won't be caught next time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13046738)
If Johnson is no longer being described as "mild", and has been admitted to hospital (which they're trying to avoid at the moment, because being in hospital puts patients at greater risk), then I think we can safely assume that he's not doing very well.

Unfortunately, I don't think this village idiot will die. Unlike common proles that he **** over, he has access to good healthcare.

Squeegee Beckenheim 6th April 2020 07:44 AM

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/stat...32206973190144

Quote:

On PM's precise medical condition: No10 remaining quite tight-lipped. Wouldn't deny report he was given oxygen, but insist symptoms remain "a temperature and a cough" and are persistent. He is staying in hospital until further notice, "under observation".

catsmate 6th April 2020 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13046738)
It's my understanding that in terms of this particular disease "mild" can include pneumonia. Here's WHO official Bruce Aylward:



If Johnson is no longer being described as "mild", and has been admitted to hospital (which they're trying to avoid at the moment, because being in hospital puts patients at greater risk), then I think we can safely assume that he's not doing very well.

According to recent newsfeeds he's on oxygen.
How can he still exercise the functions of Prime Minister?

William Parcher 6th April 2020 10:27 AM

We don't have all the specific details on Johnson's condition. We were told he has fever and cough. Now he seems to be on oxygen. But we don't know how really bad he is. He might be pretty decent with symptoms and feelings like the flu. Maybe a different person in the same condition would be taken home and told to self quarantine with special instructions because they are contagious.

Maybe they have Boris there because he is the PM. Maybe the oxygen isn't fully necessary but they are going with it anyway because it's Boris. Every Covid-19 patient should get the best care but he might be getting extra special care. I don't know.

William Parcher 6th April 2020 10:33 AM

Also, I expect that he is being monitored for his mental and verbal aptitude. We are told that he is still running the country acting in full executive capacity. Somebody would have to stop that if he is in la-la land, or can't communicate.

It would be breaking news if there was a change in power and position.

Garrison 6th April 2020 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 13046985)
Also, I expect that he is being monitored for his mental and verbal aptitude. We are told that he is still running the country acting in full executive capacity. Somebody would have to stop that if is he is in la-la land, or can't communicate.

You do know we're talking about Boris Johnson right?

Trebuchet 6th April 2020 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 13046888)
According to recent newsfeeds he's on oxygen.
How can he still exercise the functions of Prime Minister?

Being "on oxygen" can be no more than a simple nasal canula, which doesn't interfere with speech, eating, or other normal functions.

ThatGuy11200 6th April 2020 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 13046985)
Also, I expect that he is being monitored for his mental and verbal aptitude. We are told that he is still running the country acting in full executive capacity. Somebody would have to stop that if he is in la-la land, or can't communicate.

It would be breaking news if there was a change in power and position.

He may never be released then. Things are looking up. :thumbsup:

Darat 6th April 2020 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13047040)
Being "on oxygen" can be no more than a simple nasal canula, which doesn't interfere with speech, eating, or other normal functions.


But you are only put on it once your blood 02 drops which means his lungs are struggling to oxygenate his blood.

Darat 6th April 2020 12:11 PM

And he is now in intensive care UK PM Boris Johnson taken to intensive care https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52192604

ETA: what are the stats for a 55 year old overweight male chances of recovery?

William Parcher 6th April 2020 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13047164)
But you are only put on it once your blood 02 drops which means his lungs are struggling to oxygenate his blood.

Or he's not so bad in the lungs and they've got an oxygen mask for him anyway. It helps. Any healthy person who puts one on feels a bit better and refreshed.

We can't assume his condition is terrible. If he loses the ability to communicate then the government must quickly replace him with the new big chief.

ETA after Darat: He appears to be worsening.

William Parcher 6th April 2020 12:18 PM

Hey, you folks that have been running the numbers, what are his odds right now? He moved up to intensive care but is not critical. I know he's not yet at 50%.

P.J. Denyer 6th April 2020 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 13046888)
According to recent newsfeeds he's on oxygen.
How can he still exercise the functions of Prime Minister?

Still?

P.J. Denyer 6th April 2020 12:29 PM

I honestly wouldn't wish this on anyone, but if if anyone has to go through it Johnson isn't on my 'not them' list.

William Parcher 6th April 2020 12:33 PM

Still no announcement of a change in power. He must be able at this time.

sir drinks-a-lot 6th April 2020 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 13046888)
According to recent newsfeeds he's on oxygen.
How can he still exercise the functions of Prime Minister?

Mr Johnson has asked Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab to deputise "where necessary", a spokesman added.

P.J. Denyer 6th April 2020 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot (Post 13047223)
Mr Johnson has asked Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab to deputise "where necessary", a spokesman added.

Lord Percy has the reins...:eek:

Ivor the Engineer 6th April 2020 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 13047184)
Hey, you folks that have been running the numbers, what are his odds right now? He moved up to intensive care but is not critical. I know he's not yet at 50%.

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/mor...n-ventilators/

Quote:

Probably the best published information we have so far is from the Intensive Care National Audit and Research Center (ICNARC) in the UK. Of 165 patients admitted to ICUs, 79 (48%) died. Of the 98 patients who received advanced respiratory support—defined as invasive ventilation, BPAP or CPAP via endotracheal tube, or tracheostomy, or extracorporeal respiratory support—66% died.

William Parcher 6th April 2020 12:40 PM

Daily Mail: He is conscious and has asked Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab to deputise for him. Mr. Raab, also First Secretary of State, is primed to take charge of the government's coronavirus response, but it is understood he is not a temporary prime minister.

sir drinks-a-lot 6th April 2020 12:41 PM

Just spit-balling here, but the fact that he has had a fever for so long and his condition just got worse does not sound good.

How obese is he? Any preexisting conditions anyone is aware of?

Ivor the Engineer 6th April 2020 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot (Post 13047233)
Just spit-balling here, but the fact that he has had a fever for so long and his condition just got worse does not sound good.

How obese is he? Any preexisting conditions anyone is aware of?

I agree. Seems to be you either get better over a week to 10 days, or you want to make sure your will is up to date to provide for your (legitimate) children.

William Parcher 6th April 2020 12:46 PM

Obese? He's overweight but not by a huge amount. I'd call him husky. Trump is more overweight.

Darat 6th April 2020 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 13047230)
Daily Mail: He is conscious and has asked Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab to deputise for him. Mr. Raab, also First Secretary of State, is primed to take charge of the government's coronavirus response, but it is understood he is not a temporary prime minister.


Not quite. We have system in place in case of a PM being unable to be PM, this is set up in all governments. The last time Raab spoke to Johnson was on Saturday, when I learnt that it made me conclude Johnson was seriously ill.

The Atheist 6th April 2020 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13047171)
ETA: what are the stats for a 55 year old overweight male chances of recovery?

Non-smoker and not morbidly obese, should be 75/25 in favour of recovery.

However, the progression doesn't look good - the anecdotes I've seen of people coming out of ICU in a body bag seem to have taken the path BoJo's on.

ohms 6th April 2020 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivor the Engineer (Post 13047228)
https://www.physiciansweekly.com/mor...n-ventilators/

Quote:

Probably the best published information we have so far is from the Intensive Care National Audit and Research Center (ICNARC) in the UK. Of 165 patients admitted to ICUs, 79 (48%) died. Of the 98 patients who received advanced respiratory support—defined as invasive ventilation, BPAP or CPAP via endotracheal tube, or tracheostomy, or extracorporeal respiratory support—66% died.

The ICNARC published a more recent and slightly larger study:

Quote:

Of the 2249 patients, 346 patients have died, 344 patients were discharged alive from critical care and 1559 patients were last reported as still being in critical care
Link to the report:

https://www.icnarc.org/About/Latest-...-With-Covid-19

catsmate 6th April 2020 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13047040)
Being "on oxygen" can be no more than a simple nasal canula, which doesn't interfere with speech, eating, or other normal functions.

Exactly. And it's something that could easily have been done in Downing Street.

UKGov have now admitted BoJo's in Intensive Care. Next stop a ventilator...

Garrison 6th April 2020 02:21 PM

The problem is that the Government has been trying to downplay the seriousness of his condition since the start, we've gone from mild symptoms with Johnson recovering and resting up at Number 10 to intensive care in a couple of days.

dudalb 6th April 2020 02:23 PM

SO the UK has no legally established line of sucession if the PM is incapicated from performing his office?
In the US it's clear; THe Veep, then the Speaker of the House, then the President pro tempore of the Senate ,then the secrataries of the major government departments in the order of their founding,with Secratary of State being the first.
Maybe the UK should have a legal "continuity of government " line of sucession in a crisis?
I know the Brits love to "muddle through" but they are playing with fire here.


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