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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

Captain_Swoop 6th April 2020 02:25 PM

PM is just the leader of the largest party.

p0lka 6th April 2020 02:28 PM

The PM's position at the moment will be useful data for science.

he wasn't better after 7 days, he has got worse after 7 days, he can't be the first one.

Darat 6th April 2020 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13047350)
SO the UK has no legally established line of sucession if the PM is incapicated from performing his office?
In the US it's clear; THe Veep, then the Speaker of the House, then the President pro tempore of the Senate ,then the secrataries of the major government departments in the order of their founding,with Secratary of State being the first.
Maybe the UK should have a legal "continuity of government " line of sucession in a crisis?
I know the Brits love to "muddle through" but they are playing with fire here.


Yes we do, first Secretary of State.

Arcade22 6th April 2020 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13047345)
The problem is that the Government has been trying to downplay the seriousness of his condition since the start, we've gone from mild symptoms with Johnson recovering and resting up at Number 10 to intensive care in a couple of days.

I just love how the BBC grits it's teeth and plays along with the official narrative coming from the government, not even acknowledging that they have been lying about his poor condition.

"With No 10 saying..." "The message from Downing Street is..."

They must be terrified of the potential consequences of pointing out that they are not being truthful.

Arcade22 6th April 2020 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13047350)
SO the UK has no legally established line of sucession if the PM is incapicated from performing his office?
In the US it's clear; THe Veep, then the Speaker of the House, then the President pro tempore of the Senate ,then the secrataries of the major government departments in the order of their founding,with Secratary of State being the first.
Maybe the UK should have a legal "continuity of government " line of sucession in a crisis?
I know the Brits love to "muddle through" but they are playing with fire here.

Unlike the President of the US, the UK PM has no real power on their own. Instead their power comes from the fact that they have the support of a majority (or at least a plurality) of MPs. So there's little need to formalize the "succession" of the position of PM.

Captain_Swoop 6th April 2020 02:53 PM

Israeli Health Minister who said coronavirus is "a divine punishment against homosexuality" has just tested positive

EHocking 6th April 2020 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13047392)
Israeli Health Minister who said coronavirus is "a divine punishment against homosexuality" has just tested positive

Now thatís irony that even Alanis could grasp.

catsmate 6th April 2020 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13047392)
Israeli Health Minister who said coronavirus is "a divine punishment against homosexuality" has just tested positive

Has anyone investigated the obvious?

chrispy 6th April 2020 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13047392)
Israeli Health Minister who said coronavirus is "a divine punishment against homosexuality" has just tested positive

I hate to laugh at someone's misfortune, but this is kinda funny in a truly morbid way. That said, I don't wish death on anyone (that is a lie, but in general) so i hope he pulls through.

Squeegee Beckenheim 6th April 2020 03:50 PM

Spain planning to roll out universal basic income "soon"

William Parcher 6th April 2020 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13047392)
Israeli Health Minister who said coronavirus is "a divine punishment against homosexuality" has just tested positive

The Onion comes to real life.

Samson 6th April 2020 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 13047239)
Obese? He's overweight but not by a huge amount. I'd call him husky. Trump is more overweight.

15 stone
5 ft 9 inches was stated on RNZ

a_unique_person 6th April 2020 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 13047230)
Daily Mail: He is conscious and has asked Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab to deputise for him. Mr. Raab, also First Secretary of State, is primed to take charge of the government's coronavirus response, but it is understood he is not a temporary prime minister.

He should be handing over the job of pm immediately till he recovers.

William Parcher 6th April 2020 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 13047489)
15 stone
5 ft 9 inches was stated on RNZ

That's 210 lbs. Too much. Throw out some stones.

a_unique_person 6th April 2020 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13047364)
I just love how the BBC grits it's teeth and plays along with the official narrative coming from the government, not even acknowledging that they have been lying about his poor condition.



"With No 10 saying..." "The message from Downing Street is..."



They must be terrified of the potential consequences of pointing out that they are not being truthful.

The BBC is just a tame puppy now.

Darat 6th April 2020 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_unique_person (Post 13047491)
He should be handing over the job of pm immediately till he recovers.

Recovers from what.....

Darat 6th April 2020 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13047364)
I just love how the BBC grits it's teeth and plays along with the official narrative coming from the government, not even acknowledging that they have been lying about his poor condition.



"With No 10 saying..." "The message from Downing Street is..."



They must be terrified of the potential consequences of pointing out that they are not being truthful.

News reporting isn't the place for editorials (which most "news" reports seem to have forgotten).

Garrison 6th April 2020 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13047511)
News reporting isn't the place for editorials (which most "news" reports seem to have forgotten).

Not to mention that if the BBC had gone around suggesting his condition was worse without hard evidence they would have been crucified by the right wing press for 'scaremongering'.

The Atheist 6th April 2020 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13047458)

That's excellent news. I hope it catches on, because unemployment will be severe across the world.

P.J. Denyer 6th April 2020 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13047252)
Not quite. We have system in place in case of a PM being unable to be PM, this is set up in all governments. The last time Raab spoke to Johnson was on Saturday, when I learnt that it made me conclude Johnson was seriously ill.

You could have mentioned that six months ago!

Blue Mountain 6th April 2020 07:10 PM

What a difference here in Canada. When our prime minister's wife tested positive for covid-19, the prime minister himself went into self-isolation. Sophie has now recovered, but Justin is still practising social distancing.

Arcade22 6th April 2020 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13047511)
News reporting isn't the place for editorials (which most "news" reports seem to have forgotten).

Apparently "news" according to BBC standards is simply quoting the government verbatim even when it's clear that the government is lying. Doing otherwise would be tantamount to political bias and partisanship.

This of course completely unrelated to the fact that BJ and the conservative party has put the BBC in their crosshairs.

Arcade22 6th April 2020 08:23 PM

Meanwhile Trump says American CEOs are lining up to offer BJ the enviable position of being a human guinea pig for experimental treatments. Yay!

Arcade22 6th April 2020 08:37 PM

Quote:

The first indication that*Boris Johnson was sicker with coronavirus than either he or his aides were letting on came on Thursday morning. The suggestion made by a source was specific: a bed was being prepared at St Thomasí hospital for the prime minister, whose condition had worsened during his seven-day period of isolation in Downing Street.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...on-to-hospital

This is the kind of biased, partisan and unfair editorializing that you won't find in the latest official government press release quoted by the BBC.

Steve 6th April 2020 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain (Post 13047658)
What a difference here in Canada. When our prime minister's wife tested positive for covid-19, the prime minister himself went into self-isolation. Sophie has now recovered, but Justin is still practising social distancing.

Indeed. When Trudeau does his daily hour long press conference he is alone - no posse. He answers every question and has not once criticized any member of the press. Quite refreshing.

Planigale 6th April 2020 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13047350)
SO the UK has no legally established line of sucession if the PM is incapicated from performing his office?
In the US it's clear; THe Veep, then the Speaker of the House, then the President pro tempore of the Senate ,then the secrataries of the major government departments in the order of their founding,with Secratary of State being the first.
Maybe the UK should have a legal "continuity of government " line of sucession in a crisis?
I know the Brits love to "muddle through" but they are playing with fire here.

Yes we have a very clear line of succession of the head of state, which is the equivalent. Elizabeth, Charles, William, George etc. The head of state will appoint his or her first (prime) minister. If there were a real crisis then the Queen (or King) in council has authority. Cabinet government is not the same as presidential government, most ministers as ministers of the crown have authority in their own right derived from the sovereign.

Planigale 6th April 2020 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13047364)
I just love how the BBC grits it's teeth and plays along with the official narrative coming from the government, not even acknowledging that they have been lying about his poor condition.

"With No 10 saying..." "The message from Downing Street is..."

They must be terrified of the potential consequences of pointing out that they are not being truthful.

FWIW since I and other doctors can't tell who will deteriorate and become ill, I don't know how you expect a journalist to. Certainly no doctor would be telling a journalist about their patient's condition. That a fifty year old male had deteriorated after two weeks of being ill with covid-19 was no surprise, but the day before I could not have predicted that. Once he had deteriorated at that stage to needing oxygen, I thought that was serious and he might need ITU. Yes he now has a life threatening illness. I can't give you real odds, but he might need ventilation in the next two or three days. The problem is people with this condition 'drop off the perch' to use a technical term with little warning.

FWIW in this situation the security issues may have precipitated early transfer to ITU; ITU areas are easy to maintain security access than general wards.

Squeegee Beckenheim 7th April 2020 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13047598)
That's excellent news. I hope it catches on, because unemployment will be severe across the world.

Yes, I've been advocating for UBI for quite a while now. I was primarily looking at things like automation, but this current crisis certainly has exacerbated things.

The good news is that Spain is looking to make it permanent. That's good news for the Spaniards, and good news for the citizens of other countries whose leaders might take it already being an established model as a sign that it could work in their countries too.

I don't know whether it'll happen in other countries, but it happening in Spain makes it more likely. The longer the pandemic continues to disrupt life, the more necessary other countries may see it as being. The fact that it's not just the poorest people who are being affected should also help provide some impetus.

catsmate 7th April 2020 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_unique_person (Post 13047491)
He should be handing over the job of pm immediately till he recovers.

The BB is not parting with power. I expect even when he's intubated and drugg he'll still "be in charge".

Darat 7th April 2020 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13047624)
You could have mentioned that six months ago!

:p

Darat 7th April 2020 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13047693)
Apparently "news" according to BBC standards is simply quoting the government verbatim even when it's clear that the government is lying. Doing otherwise would be tantamount to political bias and partisanship.



This of course completely unrelated to the fact that BJ and the conservative party has put the BBC in their crosshairs.

Of course the BBC should report what the government actually says without alteration.

You are mixing up investigative journalism, journalism, news reporting and editorial, they are all distinct aspects of related topics.

I don't want the BBC to tell me what I should think about what the government is saying, I want them to accurately report what the government is saying. I can make my own mind up as to the truthfulness of the what the government is saying.

It appears the knowledge that he was more seriously ill than what Downing Street was saying was known by many newspapers and so on. None of those chose to break the news.

Now if they had then the BBC when reporting the news would have covered that.

Darat 7th April 2020 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13047710)
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...on-to-hospital



This is the kind of biased, partisan and unfair editorializing that you won't find in the latest official government press release quoted by the BBC.

When was that published?

Squeegee Beckenheim 7th April 2020 02:59 AM

Gove self-isolating

Darat 7th April 2020 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13047910)

Was that by popular demand?

Darat 7th April 2020 03:14 AM

This is a short video report of what ICU is like at the moment in a London hospital.

BBC News - Coronavirus: Inside an ICU fighting Covid-19
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52190961


No way has Johnson been taken to ICU because of who he is as a precaution or for security reasons and so on. He is in a ICU because he is critically ill.

Darat 7th April 2020 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13047910)

Have you seen the photo in that article of Raab and the lack of social distancing? I am absolutely flabbergasted, even with Johnson critically ill they still don't think the rules should apply to them!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...08c316658f.jpg

Squeegee Beckenheim 7th April 2020 03:23 AM

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1247466300236017664

Quote:

NEW: Latest ONS data on #Covid19 shows much higher death rate figures than even we thought. On 27th March the Dept of Health reported 926 total deaths in England. NHS’ revised figures say that in hospitals alone that figure was in fact 1,649.
More in subsequent tweets.

Tolls 7th April 2020 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13047906)
When was that published?

According to the page (it's to the left of the article, under the author names...bit faint, click o the date and you get the original published date):

First published on Mon 6 Apr 2020 20.23 BST

So yesterday evening, after we all found out he was not doing all that well.

Giordano 7th April 2020 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13047904)
Of course the BBC should report what the government actually says without alteration.

You are mixing up investigative journalism, journalism, news reporting and editorial, they are all distinct aspects of related topics.

I don't want the BBC to tell me what I should think about what the government is saying, I want them to accurately report what the government is saying. I can make my own mind up as to the truthfulness of the what the government is saying.

It appears the knowledge that he was more seriously ill than what Downing Street was saying was known by many newspapers and so on. None of those chose to break the news.

Now if they had then the BBC when reporting the news would have covered that.

Based on what other information? How can you know the truthfulness of what the government is saying unless news outlets also rigorously analyze the official government statements and provide a broader perspective?

But is your argument that the BBC, supported by taxes, is not a real news agency and is really just another arm of government? And must therefore be some completely bland conduit of whatever is fed them? Their reputation in the past in the USA is far higher. And people deserve more from their taxes IMHO.

So yes, the BBC should report press releases and official statements by the government. But they should also provide relevant facts that support or question the governmentís position. This is the true role of journalism.

William Parcher 7th April 2020 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC News
A spokesman said Mr Johnson, 55, was stable overnight, is being given oxygen and is not on a ventilator...

In a statement on Tuesday, a Downing Street spokesman said: "The prime minister has been stable overnight and remains in good spirits. He is receiving standard oxygen treatment and is breathing without any other assistance....

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52201048


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