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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

Lukraak_Sisser 15th March 2020 10:24 AM

On the lighter side, in the Netherlands the government just closed a lot of public places, including coffeeshops. The lines pre-closure were WAY longer than anything else :)

Planigale 15th March 2020 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13020822)
Building one as a hobby decades ago - possible.

Building thousands which comply with all the appropriate legislation is a completely different kettle of fish unless we're going to bet our lives on hobbyists projects.

Manley ventilator.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1995.tb04517.x
Not modern, not sophisticated, easy to use. It will ventilate. It needs no electricity. As a back up or for the less complex patient it will do the job. More sophisticated servo controlled fan ventilators would be better, but I guess these could be produced quickly, and the more sophisticated in due course.

i suspect some people here could make a manley ventilator.

ETA this was also made over the weekend by a doctor!

The Don 15th March 2020 10:42 AM

of course a manual ventilator needs someone to operate it. IMO not a good use of scarce resources, unless the people laid off from the restaurant, bar, travel and retail industries are retrained. :rolleyes:

As with most of this government's proposals, car plants suddenly making ventilators is ridiculous and based on magical thinking.

Planigale 15th March 2020 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13020851)
of course a manual ventilator needs someone to operate it. IMO not a good use of scarce resources, unless the people laid off from the restaurant, bar, travel and retail industries are retrained. :rolleyes:

As with most of this government's proposals, car plants suddenly making ventilators is ridiculous and based on magical thinking.


Manley not manual. Robert Manley designed it!

The Don 15th March 2020 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13020853)
Manley not manual. Robert Manley designed it!

Unless I misread the paper, it's a manual ventilator designed and built by Dr (or Mr) Marley.

Planigale 15th March 2020 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13020866)
Unless I misread the paper, it's a manual ventilator designed and built by Dr (or Mr) Marley.

No manual ventilation means you hand power the ventilation - 'hand bagging'. The great thing about the Manley is it runs off the gas pressure, so no electricity needed. Up to this time patients were hand ventilated, this was the first mechanical ventilator to replace hand bagging in routine anaesthesia.

(Dr. Robert Manley).

GlennB 15th March 2020 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13020836)
Manley ventilator.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1995.tb04517.x
Not modern, not sophisticated, easy to use. It will ventilate. It needs no electricity. As a back up or for the less complex patient it will do the job. More sophisticated servo controlled fan ventilators would be better, but I guess these could be produced quickly, and the more sophisticated in due course.

i suspect some people here could make a manley ventilator.

ETA this was also made over the weekend by a doctor!

Unfortunately I suspect you're serious. From your link :

"At all times information is immediately available concerning the minute and tidal volumes, the inflation pressure, the compliance and airway resistance during anasthesia. The anesthetist may at any moment change to manual ventilation with a bag to ‘feel’ conditions in the patient."

This ventilator might be (semi) automatic, but it requires constant supervision. Nothing resembling this would be allowed in a modern hospital ICU.

No, actually, you cannot be serious. That only leaves ignorance or trolling.

Planigale 15th March 2020 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennB (Post 13021035)
Unfortunately I suspect you're serious. From your link :

"At all times information is immediately available concerning the minute and tidal volumes, the inflation pressure, the compliance and airway resistance during anasthesia. The anesthetist may at any moment change to manual ventilation with a bag to ‘feel’ conditions in the patient."

This ventilator might be (semi) automatic, but it requires constant supervision. Nothing resembling this would be allowed in a modern hospital ICU.

No, actually, you cannot be serious. That only leaves ignorance or trolling.

If you think patients on ITU are not under constant supervision you don't know what happens on an ITU. It is defined by 1:1 nursing. The biggest risk is a disconnection or blockage this remains the same not matter how sophisticated your ventilator.

No one wouldn't choose to use it on modern ITU, but in a crisis a Manley is easy to use reliable and independent of electricity. If you have a better ventilator use it.

The point of the discussion originally before getting bogged down in details is that ventilators don't have to be highly sophisticated to do the job. If you can make a car engine you can certainly make a ventilator. Yes modern ventilators measure more parameters are patient triggered (perhaps the most important difference) and tend to be pressure rather than volume cycled. But if the choice is no ventilator or a Manley I'd take a Manley. Manleys were stalwarts of ventilation for many years. A Series 2 Land Rover may not be modern, it may not meet modern standards but it go the job done.

dudalb 15th March 2020 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13020147)
Yeah it looks a ban on public gatherings is on the cards for early next week. I think we'll get by mainly because Boris hasn't had time to get rid of all the professionals in Whitehall. I'm less sanguine about will happen when the virus spikes in the USA.

In the US we have one advantage: Local and State govenemnts have more power and autonomy then do similiar jurisdictions in most countries, which meand they can act even if the feds won't. In the UK. you are stuck with the what the central government decides.

Captain_Swoop 15th March 2020 04:22 PM

Trump Tweets

The individual Governors of States, and local officials, must step up their efforts on drive up testing and testing sights, working in conjunction with @CDCgov and the Federal Government!

alfaniner 15th March 2020 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13021156)
Trump Tweets

The individual Governors of States, and local officials, must step up their efforts on drive up testing and testing sights, working in conjunction with @CDCgov and the Federal Government!

"Sites", you idiot.

Ulf Nereng 15th March 2020 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13020681)
Google couldn't translate. Can someone give us the gist?

CureVac, a company based in Tubingen (Germany), is working with two other institutions there on a vaccine for Covid19. Apparently Trump has tried to get them to make it for USA, and only USA. German authorities up in arms about it.

(Personally, I'm not convinced about this story.)

tanabear 15th March 2020 05:04 PM

Best Healthcare Systems
 
I didn't start paying any serious attention to the coronavirus until late February and early March. At the time roughly 97% of the confirmed cases were still in China, now it is ~ 50%. China and South Korea seem to have got the virus under control (R0 to under 1.0 ), while it has exploded outside of the Orient.

As this is a global pandemic it will be interesting to see how the various countries respond. Which countries really do have the best healthcare system, or which nations can best deal with a sucker punch like Corona?

The World Health Organization (WHO) ranks the countries with the best health systems. France is ranked number one, while Italy is second. South Korea ranks 58th??? Something tells me these international rankings are a bunch of BS.

Captain_Swoop 15th March 2020 06:05 PM

It's the Governors fault now.

Captain_Swoop 15th March 2020 06:07 PM

wrong thread

dudalb 15th March 2020 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13021230)
It's the Governors fault now.

Passing the Buck on a truly massive scale.

Lukraak_Sisser 15th March 2020 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanabear (Post 13021187)
I didn't start paying any serious attention to the coronavirus until late February and early March. At the time roughly 97% of the confirmed cases were still in China, now it is ~ 50%. China and South Korea seem to have got the virus under control (R0 to under 1.0 ), while it has exploded outside of the Orient.

As this is a global pandemic it will be interesting to see how the various countries respond. Which countries really do have the best healthcare system, or which nations can best deal with a sucker punch like Corona?

The World Health Organization (WHO) ranks the countries with the best health systems. France is ranked number one, while Italy is second. South Korea ranks 58th??? Something tells me these international rankings are a bunch of BS.

Healthcare is about caring for those that are sick. It says nothing about government control and how effective isolation controls are.

S Korea for instance is a nation that has far greater control over it's population then Italy. It also had experience with the SARS outbreak and it's under constant threat of an insane dictator who can throw poison gas, bio weapons or even Nukes across the border at any time, so they have a protocol for that and the population is trained to respond.

Italy and France have none of these things. For instance, when the government in Italy started considering locking down the north there was a mass exodus to the south, helping the spread.

dann 16th March 2020 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng (Post 13021172)
CureVac, a company based in Tubingen (Germany), is working with two other institutions there on a vaccine for Covid19. Apparently Trump has tried to get them to make it for USA, and only USA. German authorities up in arms about it.

(Personally, I'm not convinced about this story.)


It appears to be true: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post13020813

Ulf Nereng 16th March 2020 06:55 AM

Yes, The Guardian has the story, too, now:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-vaccine-deal

Trebuchet 16th March 2020 08:56 AM

In my state, long-term scammer and now leading Republican candidate for governor Tim Eyman is planning a rally hoping 251 people will attend to "stick a finger in Inslee's eye", referring to the current governor.

dudalb 16th March 2020 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13021734)
In my state, long-term scammer and now leading Republican candidate for governor Tim Eyman is planning a rally hoping 251 people will attend to "stick a finger in Inslee's eye", referring to the current governor.

Not surpriesed, since to many in the GOP Science is Fake News.

dudalb 16th March 2020 10:56 AM

ANd in the UK Boris is continuing to do, basically, nothing.
IMHO the UK is headed for catastrophe.

The Don 16th March 2020 11:10 AM

W.r.t Coronavirus, Brexit or both ?

Captain_Swoop 16th March 2020 11:27 AM

Trump Tweets

Everybody is so well unified and working so hard. It is a beautiful thing to see. They love our great Country. We will end up being stronger than ever before!

Just had a very good tele-conference with Nations’s Governors. Went very well. Cuomo of New York has to “do more”.

alfaniner 16th March 2020 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng (Post 13021172)
CureVac, a company based in Tubingen (Germany), is working with two other institutions there on a vaccine for Covid19. Apparently Trump has tried to get them to make it for USA, and only USA. German authorities up in arms about it.

(Personally, I'm not convinced about this story.)

Just wondering if that could be considered a quid pro quo. I would hope they have extensive documentation.

dudalb 16th March 2020 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13021876)
W.r.t Coronavirus, Brexit or both ?

Both..but I was talking about the Corona virus.
He is adapting the Ebenezer Scrooge C1p Policy..."Let them die, and decrease the surplus population".

GlennB 16th March 2020 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13021859)
ANd in the UK Boris is continuing to do, basically, nothing.
IMHO the UK is headed for catastrophe.

Cruel irony - our belongings are being removed back to the UK in early April (no restrictions on that, apparently) and we were planning to follow them and rent until our house here sells. No damn chance now, as our Belgian buyers will be stuck at home unable to travel over to sign contracts, and the notary and lawyers offices are closing down here anyway, at least for now.

We'll keep the bare bones of a home together here in Greece - which seems a damn sight safer than the UK - and manage just fine. We're stocking up just a little and aiming to isolate for a month or so, though the supplies of bog roll in the shops are totally normal ;)

dudalb 16th March 2020 03:29 PM

People in London will be painting red crosses on doors before this is over.

angrysoba 16th March 2020 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13022166)
People in London will be painting red crosses on doors before this is over.

Oh FFS!

The Don 17th March 2020 03:55 AM

Colour me surprised, the UK government's plan for car factories to build ventilators is a pie-in-the-sky as is their approach to pretty much everything else :rolleyes:

Quote:

"The idea that an engineering company can quickly manufacturer medical devices, and comply with the rules, is unrealistic because of the heavy burden of standards and regulations that need to be complied with," said Penlon's Mr Thompson.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51914490

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 06:10 AM

Trump Tweets
Cuomo wants “all states to be treated the same.” But all states aren’t the same. Some are being hit hard by the Chinese Virus, some are being hit practically not at all. New York is a very big “hotspot”, West Virginia has, thus far, zero cases. Andrew, keep politics out of it...

The Don 17th March 2020 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13022548)
Trump Tweets
Cuomo wants “all states to be treated the same.” But all states aren’t the same. Some are being hit hard by the Chinese Virus, some are being hit practically not at all. New York is a very big “hotspot”, West Virginia has, thus far, zero cases. Andrew, keep politics out of it...

Got to keep that re-brand going :rolleyes:

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 06:54 AM

Trump Tweets

Failing Michigan Governor must work harder and be much more proactive. We are pushing her to get the job done. I stand with Michigan

Federal Government is working very well with the Governors and State officials. Good things will happen! #KILLTHEVIRUS

alfaniner 17th March 2020 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13022548)
Trump Tweets
Cuomo wants “all states to be treated the same.” But all states aren’t the same. Some are being hit hard by the Chinese Virus, some are being hit practically not at all. New York is a very big “hotspot”, West Virginia has, thus far, zero cases. Andrew, keep politics out of it...

Oh, the irony. :boggled:

dudalb 17th March 2020 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 13022285)
Oh FFS!

it's called Humor, a reference to the Great Plague in London in 1666 where thos who had theplague had red crosses painted on their doors.

dudalb 17th March 2020 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13022471)
Colour me surprised, the UK government's plan for car factories to build ventilators is a pie-in-the-sky as is their approach to pretty much everything else :rolleyes:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51914490

I have to disagee,this could work.
In WW2, a lot of US car manfacures switched to makiing airplanes very quickly.
If you think a bout what goes into a car motor, it makes sense to think they could make venitlators.
Iunderstand you harte the Tory government, but this is one thing worth looking into.

The Don 17th March 2020 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13022852)
I have to disagee,this could work.
In WW2, a lot of US car manfacures switched to makiing airplanes very quickly.
If you think a bout what goes into a car motor, it makes sense to think they could make venitlators.
Iunderstand you harte the Tory government, but this is one thing worth looking into.

The problem is that there isn't even an agreed design at this stage, much less a supply chain both of which were in place and the switch would still take months.

A car assembly line is nothing like an electronics assembly line.

Darat 17th March 2020 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13022872)
The problem is that there isn't even an agreed design at this stage, much less a supply chain both of which were in place and the switch would still take months.

A car assembly line is nothing like an electronics assembly line.

And unless you want something as crude as what we would have been able to build in WW2 you just can't compare the two events.

alfaniner 17th March 2020 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13022852)
I have to disagee,this could work.
In WW2, a lot of US car manfacures switched to makiing airplanes very quickly.
If you think a bout what goes into a car motor, it makes sense to think they could make venitlators.
Iunderstand you harte the Tory government, but this is one thing worth looking into.

I always read your posts and, nothing personal, but you might want to do some proofreading before you hit Submit. Those little squiggly underlines should help. Sometimes it's almost impossible to parse what you are trying to type.

ponderingturtle 17th March 2020 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13022852)
I have to disagee,this could work.
In WW2, a lot of US car manfacures switched to makiing airplanes very quickly.
If you think a bout what goes into a car motor, it makes sense to think they could make venitlators.
Iunderstand you harte the Tory government, but this is one thing worth looking into.

Maybe though if they get it a bit wrong and pop a few lungs no big deal anyway.

I mean I get it you are throwing all regulation for medical equipment right out the window and not caring who it lands on. Like how funny recalls of artificial joints are. Just one little problem and suddenly people try to make it seem like a big deal.

ponderingturtle 17th March 2020 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13022881)
And unless you want something as crude as what we would have been able to build in WW2 you just can't compare the two events.

Just hook a Merlin engine up to their lungs that will solve it.

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13022852)
I have to disagee,this could work.
In WW2, a lot of US car manfacures switched to makiing airplanes very quickly.
If you think a bout what goes into a car motor, it makes sense to think they could make venitlators.
Iunderstand you harte the Tory government, but this is one thing worth looking into.

Which car factories and how quickly?

What materials and processes were involved?

What components were they making?

How does that compare to a modern car factory switching to making ventilators?

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 12:33 PM

Labour's 2019 spending plans
Abolish university tuition fees £13bn
Universal basic income £4.5bn
4 day working week £85bn
NHS spend £7bn
National social care service£10bn

Tories compared it to"flying unicorns"

Today the chancellor found £330bn in his back pocket.

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 12:53 PM

Why would anyone be asking car factories to convert to medical electronics factories?
Why not just get existing electronics manufacturers and sub contractors to make them?

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 12:59 PM

Trump in January: Coronavirus is 'not at all' a pandemic

Trump now: 'I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic'

Darat 17th March 2020 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13023001)
Which car factories and how quickly?



What materials and processes were involved?



What components were they making?



How does that compare to a modern car factory switching to making ventilators?

I wonder what some folk think a "car factory" is actually like. It's a as highly optimised as possible production line to turn out a car.

Sent from my SM-T710 using Tapatalk

The Don 17th March 2020 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13023019)
Why would anyone be asking car factories to convert to medical electronics factories?
Why not just get existing electronics manufacturers and sub contractors to make them?

Because that's what they think happened during WWIi, the Conservatives' only point of reference for success :rolleyes:

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 02:08 PM

Trump Tweets

The world is at war with a hidden enemy. WE WILL WIN!

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13023089)
Because that's what they think happened during WWIi, the Conservatives' only point of reference for success :rolleyes:

I know in the UK all the car factories were busy turning out as many motor vehicles as they could.
After the war the Bristol Aircraft company famous for it's Fighter bomber started making cars and still does.
But they couldn't make medical equipment.

crescent 17th March 2020 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13023089)
Because that's what they think happened during WWIi, the Conservatives' only point of reference for success :rolleyes:

My impression is that it took WWII factories some months to retool in order to switch from cars to airplanes, and again to switch from one airplane to another.

I suppose there might be value in looking at making some sort of switch like that, but it may take too long to prevent the worst of the hurt.


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