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-   -   Assuming Nationality from Appearance - Racist or Not? (https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=340174)

Darat 4th November 2019 09:14 AM

Assuming Nationality from Appearance - Racist or Not?
 
Mod Info This thread has been put together from posts split from this thread, in which it was alleged by some that Essex Police had identified 39 Vietnamese people as Chinese "based on appearance alone". Initially the posts went to AAH as a derail but I think there is value in the discussion of what is, and isn't, racism, and whether certain actions are perceived as racist in some cultures but not in others.
Posted By:Agatha


Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12880304)
Aside from the obvious racism of it, there's no need for the police to conclude anything about their nationality from their appearance at that point. In fact, I doubt they did.

What racism?

theprestige 4th November 2019 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12880434)
What racism?

The racism of assuming someone is Chinese just because they look asian.

zooterkin 4th November 2019 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12880456)
The racism of assuming someone is Chinese just because they look asian.

That's not racism.

theprestige 4th November 2019 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 12880461)
That's not racism.

Sure it is. Racial stereotype. Like assuming two black people must know each other because they're both black.

zooterkin 4th November 2019 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12880466)
Sure it is. Racial stereotype. Like assuming two black people must know each other because they're both black.

No, that’s just ignorance, like when Americans assume I know their friend who lives in London because I’m also from England. Racism is generally prejudice based on appearance or ethnic background (for example) and driven by the fact one believes one’s own group to be superior. Thinking a group of people might be Chinese because they look Chinese (if that’s what happened, and it’s far from certain that it did) isn’t racist. If the police decided not to put much effort in because the victims were (or appeared to be) Chinese, that would be racist.

Nessie 4th November 2019 10:27 AM

If the Chinese police had said, after a tour bus crashes killing all 70 occupants, we think they might be English, but they turned out to be Scottish, I do not think anyone would be particularly fussed.

There are more English, than Scots, Welsh and NI put together. There are more Chinese (1.36 billion) than the rest of South east Asia put together (641 million).

Nessie 4th November 2019 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12880456)
The racism of assuming someone is Chinese just because they look asian.

The police did not say they are Chinese, they said they thought they might be Chinese. I do not think they assumed they were Chinese, they believed it was a possibility.

Information Analyst 5th November 2019 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12880466)
Sure it is. Racial stereotype. Like assuming two black people must know each other because they're both black.

It's nothing like that at all.

elgarak 5th November 2019 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Information Analyst (Post 12881335)
It's nothing like that at all.

Tell that to the Koreans' I worked with...Hell, tell that to ANYONE from (South)-East Asia who is not Chinese. (Sometimes the default goes to Japanese, like here in Düsseldorf, because there's a large Japanese community.)

Yes, they nod, and smile, and politely correct you... but they CORRECT you. Always. It bothers them. A lot. Even more so when Koreans are confused with Japanese. No wonder if you know the history. It's racist.

Information Analyst 5th November 2019 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elgarak (Post 12881344)
Tell that to the Koreans' I worked with...Hell, tell that to ANYONE from (South)-East Asia who is not Chinese. (Sometimes the default goes to Japanese, like here in Düsseldorf, because there's a large Japanese community.)

Yes, they nod, and smile, and politely correct you... but they CORRECT you. Always. It bothers them. A lot. Even more so when Koreans are confused with Japanese. No wonder if you know the history. It's racist.

Funny how you reacted to a post other than the one where I gave the demographic and historical context in the UK. What happens in Düsseldorf means squat.

My Chinese brother-in-law occasionally gets mistaken for Korean by Chinese, Japanese, and even yes, Korean people. It doesn't bother him.

TragicMonkey 5th November 2019 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elgarak (Post 12881344)
Tell that to the Koreans' I worked with...Hell, tell that to ANYONE from (South)-East Asia who is not Chinese. (Sometimes the default goes to Japanese, like here in Düsseldorf, because there's a large Japanese community.)

Yes, they nod, and smile, and politely correct you... but they CORRECT you. Always. It bothers them. A lot. Even more so when Koreans are confused with Japanese. No wonder if you know the history. It's racist.

Is it racist to confuse a Swede for a Norwegian? A Kenyan for a Tanzanian? A Serbian for a Croat? I'm pretty sure almost everybody would correct you if you mistake them but I don't see why it's necessarily always racist.

And if you answered "No" then I don't see why mistaken nationality is racist when it's east Asia and nowhere else.

Darat 5th November 2019 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12880456)
The racism of assuming someone is Chinese just because they look asian.

Then your own statement becomes racist, the "they look Asian". And in the UK (just to illustrate how silly and how much of a social construct most uses of the word "race" are) "asians" in the UK will generally refer to looking like someone from India or Pakistan not China or Korea and so on.

Darat 5th November 2019 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Information Analyst (Post 12881376)
Funny how you reacted to a post other than the one where I gave the demographic and historical context in the UK. What happens in Düsseldorf means squat.



My Chinese brother-in-law occasionally gets mistaken for Korean by Chinese, Japanese, and even yes, Korean people. It doesn't bother him.

Because I have red hair nearly everyone I've met from the USA and we've had a general discussion of where we are from assume I'm Irish or sometimes Scottish. That is wrong I am English. That mistake and assumption is not racist, unless they had treated me sub optimally or just differently because they thought I was Irish or Scottish.

Vixen 5th November 2019 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Information Analyst (Post 12881333)
Not sure how you work that out. There are around 450,000 people of Chinese descent living in the UK, of whom around 200,000 were born in China. In contrast only around 30,000 were born in Vietnam. More to the point, the last time a large number of people were found dead in a lorry, they were all Chinese.

Now that is very silly, isn't it, because lorryloads of Afghans and Iraqis and who knows what have also been discovered. Unless you're assuming the Chinese ones are the ones who have a special propensity to die.

Vixen 5th November 2019 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elgarak (Post 12881344)
Tell that to the Koreans' I worked with...Hell, tell that to ANYONE from (South)-East Asia who is not Chinese. (Sometimes the default goes to Japanese, like here in Düsseldorf, because there's a large Japanese community.)

Yes, they nod, and smile, and politely correct you... but they CORRECT you. Always. It bothers them. A lot. Even more so when Koreans are confused with Japanese. No wonder if you know the history. It's racist.

You don't even need to be from Asia to understand that.

Vixen 5th November 2019 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12881409)
Is it racist to confuse a Swede for a Norwegian? A Kenyan for a Tanzanian? A Serbian for a Croat? I'm pretty sure almost everybody would correct you if you mistake them but I don't see why it's necessarily always racist.

And if you answered "No" then I don't see why mistaken nationality is racist when it's east Asia and nowhere else.

Definitely. I know a couple of Finns who got very angry at being mistaken for Russian. One of them, who attended Kingston Polytechnic for a year, got really pissed off at being called 'Merger' (her name is Merja' [soft 'j']). When I first made acquaintance with her, she introduced herself as 'Merger' which I called her for a long time because she assumed I was another ignorant Brit, so she saved me the trouble of anglicising her name.

I do think it is racist for other people to tell you what you are based on their own ignorance. So if you are not Chinese, who is anyone to tell you that you are?


AIUI the Vietnamese like to be buried in their home village when dead, so they could have been buried in a far away country by accident.

zooterkin 5th November 2019 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 12881605)
Now that is very silly, isn't it, because lorryloads of Afghans and Iraqis and who knows what have also been discovered. Unless you're assuming the Chinese ones are the ones who have a special propensity to die.

Who's being silly now? Afghans and Iraqis typically don't look like Chinese people.

Vixen 5th November 2019 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12881426)
Because I have red hair nearly everyone I've met from the USA and we've had a general discussion of where we are from assume I'm Irish or sometimes Scottish. That is wrong I am English. That mistake and assumption is not racist, unless they had treated me sub optimally or just differently because they thought I was Irish or Scottish.

There you go.

zooterkin 5th November 2019 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 12881616)
Definitely. I know a couple of Finns who got very angry at being mistaken for Russian. One of them, who attended Kingston Polytechnic for a year, got really pissed off at being called 'Merger' (her name is Merja' [soft 'j']). When I first made acquaintance with her, she introduced herself as 'Merger' which I called her for a long time because she assumed I was another ignorant Brit, so she saved me the trouble of anglicising her name.

None of which is racist.
Quote:


I do think it is racist for other people to tell you what you are based on their own ignorance. So if you are not Chinese, who is anyone to tell you that you are?
What does any of that have to do with the current case?
Quote:

AIUI the Vietnamese like to be buried in their home village when dead, so they could have been buried in a far away country by accident.
Do you think there was any danger of the victims being buried before they were identified? On the other hand, pragmatically, if they hadn't been identified and were buried in the UK, and Vietnamese customs are as you say, who would be upset by that?

(Leaving aside the fact that, yes, most people prefer to be dead before they are buried...)

Vixen 5th November 2019 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 12881617)
Who's being silly now? Afghans and Iraqis typically don't look like Chinese people.

No but Information Analyst said perhaps it was thought they were Chinese because there was an occasion previously.

TragicMonkey 5th November 2019 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 12881616)
Definitely. I know a couple of Finns who got very angry at being mistaken for Russian. One of them, who attended Kingston Polytechnic for a year, got really pissed off at being called 'Merger' (her name is Merja' [soft 'j']). When I first made acquaintance with her, she introduced herself as 'Merger' which I called her for a long time because she assumed I was another ignorant Brit, so she saved me the trouble of anglicising her name.

I do think it is racist for other people to tell you what you are based on their own ignorance. So if you are not Chinese, who is anyone to tell you that you are?


AIUI the Vietnamese like to be buried in their home village when dead, so they could have been buried in a far away country by accident.

Really. Mistaking a Canadian for an American is racist. Mistaking a Belgian for a Luxembourgian is racist. Mistaking a San Marinoan for an Italian is racist.

Does it only apply to national boundaries? If a South Carolinian is mistaken for a North Carolinian is it racist?

zooterkin 5th November 2019 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 12881619)
There you go.

So you're agreeing it's not racist to initially mis-identify someone based on probabilities?

Vixen 5th November 2019 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 12881630)
Do you really think he was saying that was only thing being taken into consideration?

It is a sweeping generalisation.

theprestige 5th November 2019 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12881661)
That needs answering.

Even if it is correct, it is a racist as mistaking a Scotsman for an Englishman.

Not the mistake, the assumption. If you assume that someone is Scottish because they are white, that's racist. If you assume that someone is Chinese because they look "Chinese" that's racist. Etc.

Especially when it's gratuitous. There's no need to make an early determination about nationality, from appearance alone. It's totally okay to wait and get more information before saying one way or the other. It's the gratuitous stereotyping of nationality, based on physical appearance, that is racist. "I can tell from your epicanthic folds and burnt-honey skin tone that you are asian, and therefore probably Chinese"... Is racist.

Vixen 5th November 2019 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12881626)
Really. Mistaking a Canadian for an American is racist. Mistaking a Belgian for a Luxembourgian is racist. Mistaking a San Marinoan for an Italian is racist.

Does it only apply to national boundaries? If a South Carolinian is mistaken for a North Carolinian is it racist?

As Prestige says, it's to do with ignorant assumptions, rather than 'making a mistake'.

Vixen 5th November 2019 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 12881628)
So you're agreeing it's not racist to initially mis-identify someone based on probabilities?


I said, there you go, because Darat appears to have informed them he or she was English and not -heaven forfend! - Scottish or Irish. The implication of feeling insulted is not lost.

TragicMonkey 5th November 2019 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 12881700)
As Prestige says, it's to do with ignorant assumptions, rather than 'making a mistake'.

Racist or not, was the question. Can you answer it?

Belz... 5th November 2019 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12880466)
Sure it is.

That's not what racism is.

Quote:

Racial stereotype.
See above.

Quote:

Like assuming two black people must know each other because they're both black.
Ooh! An analogy! It'd be better if you said "assuming two black people are from Africa."

Vixen 5th November 2019 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12881771)
Racist or not, was the question. Can you answer it?

It depends on whether or not they look hillbillies.

Nessie 5th November 2019 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12881691)
Not the mistake, the assumption. If you assume that someone is Scottish because they are white, that's racist. If you assume that someone is Chinese because they look "Chinese" that's racist. Etc.

Especially when it's gratuitous. There's no need to make an early determination about nationality, from appearance alone. It's totally okay to wait and get more information before saying one way or the other. It's the gratuitous stereotyping of nationality, based on physical appearance, that is racist. "I can tell from your epicanthic folds and burnt-honey skin tone that you are asian, and therefore probably Chinese"... Is racist.

Scottish and English white are from the same race. To mix up one with the other or make assumptions is not racist.

Are the Chinese a separate race from the Vietnamese? Are all Chinese people the same race? I know China has numerous ethnic groups, but ethnicity and race are not the same.

TragicMonkey 5th November 2019 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 12881790)
It depends on whether or not they look hillbillies.

I'm assuming that's simultaneously a "no" to the racism and a "no" to whether you can answer a straight question. Thanks, I don't believe we need trouble you further with any attention.

Vixen 5th November 2019 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12880502)
If the Chinese police had said, after a tour bus crashes killing all 70 occupants, we think they might be English, but they turned out to be Scottish, I do not think anyone would be particularly fussed.

There are more English, than Scots, Welsh and NI put together. There are more Chinese (1.36 billion) than the rest of South east Asia put together (641 million).

That's a poor argument. So it's OK for Scots to be labelled 'German' just because there are 120m of them and only 5.6m, of you?

Belz... 5th November 2019 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 12881807)
That's a poor argument. So it's OK for Scots to be labelled 'German' just because there are 120m of them and only 5.6m, of you?

Going by the numbers for an early hypothesis is wrong. You heard it here first!

Nessie 5th November 2019 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 12881807)
That's a poor argument. So it's OK for Scots to be labelled 'German' just because there are 120m of them and only 5.6m, of you?

It depends on the circumstances. If a Chinese police officer finds a German tour bus and assumes those inside are German, but they were Scottish and a correction is made straight away, no harm done. If a Chinese state official refers to visiting Scottish dignitaries as German and then claims they are all the same anyway, then there is an issue.

theprestige 5th November 2019 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12881784)
That's not what racism is.



See above.



Ooh! An analogy! It'd be better if you said "assuming two black people are from Africa."

I keep giving you opportunities to prove me wrong about analogies, and you keep proving me right.

Vixen 5th November 2019 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12881799)
I'm assuming that's simultaneously a "no" to the racism and a "no" to whether you can answer a straight question. Thanks, I don't believe we need trouble you further with any attention.

You asked about North Carolingians versus South Carolingians.

Ask a silly question...

Belz... 5th November 2019 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12881820)
I keep giving you opportunities to prove me wrong about analogies, and you keep proving me right.

Great. How about the other points?

theprestige 5th November 2019 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12881832)
Great. How about the other points?

I disagree with them, but don't see any reason to keep arguing about it. Go right on believing that it's not racist to gratuitously assume someone is Chinese because they "look Chinese", if that's really what you believe.

Nessie 5th November 2019 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12881863)
I disagree with them, but don't see any reason to keep arguing about it. Go right on believing that it's not racist to gratuitously assume someone is Chinese because they "look Chinese", if that's really what you believe.

How is it racist to mistake or make assumptions about the nationality of people who are the same race, but have different nationalities?

Belz... 5th November 2019 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12881863)
I disagree with them, but don't see any reason to keep arguing about it. Go right on believing that it's not racist to gratuitously assume someone is Chinese because they "look Chinese", if that's really what you believe.

It's not a belief. It's the definition of the word. If you want to call it ignorant, fine.


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