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-   -   Continuation The Trump Presidency: Part 25 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346437)

Aridas 15th October 2020 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13258630)
Hunter Biden should have a really easy libel lawsuit case here.

Against Guiliani, Bannon, the NYP, Fox, OANN and the shop owner.

With Fox's defense of Carlson as a guide - No reasonable or well informed person would believe the crap being spewed or the sources, therefore, Hunter loses.


Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13258765)
They should have quit en masse instead of covering for Trump.
Unlawful or immoral orders shouldn't be followed.
The CDC brought this on itself for putting the Executive above the Science.

Easy to say, harder to do - especially in times of financial uncertainty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13258883)
This is not what's happening, it's what the news media is making headlines out of.

They are collecting GOP ballots in GOP locations: inside campaign headquarters, inside churches and inside gun stores.

Size and highlight removed, just because. And... nothing you said actually conflicts or refutes what I poked at. The GOP is making a point to prevent or remove any claim that they are "official" ballot boxes, sure, though.

To poke further at the sides to the argument -

GOP side

Quote:

It turns out, the local Republican parties in several counties, including at least Fresno, Los Angeles, Ventura and Orange counties, came together to place boxes at Republican-friendly locations to collect ballots, and they even announced their plans online. Those drop-off locations included local Republican party offices, candidate headquarters, gun stores and churches.

Republicans say their collection of ballots is no different than the practice of "ballot harvesting" where a third party collects signed ballot envelopes.

"Because ballot harvesting is legal, we wanted to be open about it," says Fresno County GOP Chairman Fred Vanderhoof. "We let people know on Facebook and social media that they could drop their ballot at a secure ballot box and we'll take it down for them."
State side -

Quote:

Ballot harvesting is used in some cases where voters lack transportation, are elderly or disabled or are in the hospital, and the third party must sign the ballot as a witness. Because the unofficial ballot boxes are unmanned, the state says it's not the same as ballot harvesting.

Secretary of State Alex Padilla says it's illegal to put out unofficial ballot boxes and collect votes, even though it is legal to turn in someone else's ballot.

"Today, the Secretary of State's office, jointly with the (California) Department of Justice, issued a cease and desist order to the California Republican party to remove these dropboxes," Padilla said.

The individuals responsible for putting out the boxes have until Thursday to comply with the cease and desist order.

Padilla reminded voters only to use official ballot drop boxes deployed and secured by a county elections office.

Becerra says those who choose to leave boxes out, knowing it is against state law, are at risk of criminal or civil charges.
So, what there is liberal disinformation, specifically?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh (Post 13258967)
I also believe Reinoehl would have been willing to turn himself in, based on a videotaped statement he made, but I could be wrong.

I'd say that point is a little more complicated. IIRC, Reinoehl made it clear that he was distinctly concerned about his safety if he turned himself in because of the violent white supremacists in law enforcement - but was willing to cooperate with the legal system and go to court to present his case, where he believed that he had a strong case for self-defense.

Elagabalus 15th October 2020 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13259047)
White House was warned Giuliani was target of Russian intelligence operation to feed misinformation to Trump

U.S. intelligence agencies believed Russian agents were ‘working’ Trump’s personal lawyer to disseminate misinformation about the Bidens.
washingtonpost.com

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1059631.html

Skeptic Ginger 15th October 2020 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aridas (Post 13259082)
Size and highlight removed, just because. And... nothing you said actually conflicts or refutes what I poked at. The GOP is making a point to prevent or remove any claim that they are "official" ballot boxes, sure, though.

To poke further at the sides to the argument -

GOP side

State side -

So, what there is liberal disinformation, specifically?

Implying the ballot boxes are a nefarious attempt to toss Democratic ballots.

Aridas 15th October 2020 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13259116)
Implying the ballot boxes are a nefarious attempt to toss Democratic ballots.

I see. Will you be kind enough to admit that you were very emphatically attacking a straw man and retract your objection, then, given that said claim has very little to do with what I said in what you quoted, and nor do either of the links that I poked at claim what you're attacking as liberal disinformation?

Otherwise, you, yourself, are engaging in disinformation.

SezMe 15th October 2020 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatius (Post 13258484)
Screw that, it doesn't take a "lawsuit" to enforce a law. Send in the cops to remove the boxes from every location you know about, and arrest everyone who is even remotely related to placing them there, and charge them with a crime.

And then hold them without bail, since the California GOP's attitude makes it clear that they are almost certainly going to re-offend if allowed out on bail. Let the ************* sit in jail for six months while their case drags through the courts.

Wash, rinse, repeat for every new Republican ************ who tries to keep this **** going.

Yes, yes, yes. A little cooling off period in the local slammer eating green bologna sandwiches would work wonders.

SezMe 15th October 2020 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13258528)
You see that's why most Dictator wannabes start their own propaganda network instead of just assuming a social media network is going to be okay with doing it.

Yeah, well, that is exactly what Trump was doing when he rode down that escalator. Then things went horribly wrong and he stated to win. The rallies with thousands of cheering idiots fans grabbed hm by the short and curlies and wouldn't let go. Then it rock hit bottom: he won!

Worse yet, the Law of Unintended Consequences took hold and his finances got the attention of the Powers That Be that would never come to the public's attention if he just remained a New York playboy with a loud mouth. Now he's more than in hot water, he's in criminal hot water not just tax evasion hot water. It is, as far as I can tell, the only redeeming feature of this whole mess.

Skeptic Ginger 15th October 2020 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aridas (Post 13259171)
I see. Will you be kind enough to admit that you were very emphatically attacking a straw man and retract your objection, then, given that said claim has very little to do with what I said in what you quoted, and nor do either of the links that I poked at claim what you're attacking as liberal disinformation?

Otherwise, you, yourself, are engaging in disinformation.

Why all the focus on 'it's illegal', and why are people outraged about it?

And what about Horatius' post explaining how the CA law enforcement should be carried out to remove the boxes?

SezMe 15th October 2020 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13258883)
<snip>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13258896)
<snip>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13258900)
<snip>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13258904)
<snip>

I don't need the shouting in vivid technicolor to get your point.

Skeptic Ginger 15th October 2020 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SezMe (Post 13259252)
I don't need the shouting in vivid technicolor to get your point.

I'm just tired of repeating the same discrediting information and hearing the misinformation repeated with no one addressing the issues.

The GOP boxes in CA were not some surreptitious attempt to trick liberals into depositing their ballots so they could be culled. The GOP rep had a decent argument for the boxes. That is what the discussion should be about. Instead there's some ludicrous outrage. People here sound like the people we are complaining about.

And I went back and looked at Trump's quote. Zig was right. You know how often I say that? Never, except he knows some stuff about physics. The quote is there. "They" referred to the Portland police.

Why are people distorting this when Trump's actual quote about retribution being necessary was more than atrocious enough?

Hlafordlaes 15th October 2020 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13258883)
This is not what's happening, it's what the news media is making headlines out of.

They are collecting GOP ballots in GOP locations: inside campaign headquarters, inside churches and inside gun stores.

I don't give a flying **** if Jesus himself will be standing by the count. The boxes can be a source of unending conflict, starting with any future claims (wait for them!) that the boxes were not, gee, treated as official.

You want official, you go official. The rest is knuckle-dragging nonsense designed to obfuscate and create confusion.

Skeptic Ginger 15th October 2020 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes (Post 13259268)
I don't give a flying **** if Jesus himself will be standing by the count. The boxes can be a source of unending conflict, starting with any future claims (wait for them!) that the boxes were not, gee, treated as official.

You want official, you go official. The rest is knuckle-dragging nonsense designed to obfuscate and create confusion.

See, here's an example. There is no evidence that is the goal of the CA GOP. Remember there is no question CA will vote for Biden. It isn't close and not subject to a serious challenge.

So is there a down ballot issue you think the GOP is going to challenge the votes on because of their own ballot boxes?

Blue Mountain 15th October 2020 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elagabalus (Post 13259083)

White House was told Russia targeted Giuliani to feed misinformation to Trump, report says [The Guardian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerrywayne (Post 13258943)
Sen. Sasse gets candid about Trump.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...spm&stream=top


Exclusive: GOP Sen. Sasse says Trump 'kisses dictators' butts' and mocks evangelicals [Washington Examiner]

I fixed your links for you. Please see The campaign for good linking: please don't post raw links without giving some sort of idea as to what the link contains. Also, please trim your links to remove tracking information.

Aridas 16th October 2020 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13259251)
Why all the focus on 'it's illegal',

Because it fairly certainly is. Yes, I get that this is the Trump era, where Republicans openly and brazenly flout the law, but crime should not be normalized.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13259251)
and why are people outraged about it?

:confused:

Are you of the crowd that only values things like electoral integrity and security when you think they will benefit "your side?" Similarly, Rule of Law? Should people stop being offended by rank hypocrisy in politics?

Either way, it sure looks like you've seized upon just ONE of the potential concerns - one of the less impactful and less likely ones, really - and are harping on it as if that's all anyone could possibly be concerned about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13259251)
And what about Horatius' post explaining how the CA law enforcement should be carried out to remove the boxes?

That's Horatius' post. If you want to make a response to it, make your response to it, not throw out a generalized LIBERAL DISINFORMATION towards what you seem to admit is actual fact.

Lurch 16th October 2020 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13259281)
See, here's an example. There is no evidence that is the goal of the CA GOP. Remember there is no question CA will vote for Biden. It isn't close and not subject to a serious challenge.

So is there a down ballot issue you think the GOP is going to challenge the votes on because of their own ballot boxes?

I wouldn't be so quick to ascribe innocent motives to the GOP on anything. These ballot boxes could well be a means to nefarious plans. In a state that's assuredly lost to them at least as regards the Presidential vote, there's hardly a downside to sacrificing those collected votes if some 'accident' were to occur and thus give ammunition to a claim of 'uncertainty' in the result.

If we can imagine it, those scumbags will. And worse, because these are desperate times for them.

The Don 16th October 2020 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13259281)
See, here's an example. There is no evidence that is the goal of the CA GOP. Remember there is no question CA will vote for Biden. It isn't close and not subject to a serious challenge.

So is there a down ballot issue you think the GOP is going to challenge the votes on because of their own ballot boxes?

You're right, the California GOP haven't been clear what their motives for installing illegal ballot boxes are. Upthread, I offered a number of possible motives.

That said, if you're of a conspiratorial mindset, the GOP in California isn't going to be pulling up trees so why not sacrifice California (by dumping ballots) to create national doubt.

Ethan Thane Athen 16th October 2020 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerrywayne (Post 13258943)
Sen. Sasse gets candid about Trump.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...spm&stream=top

Wow, that's powerful stuff.

I don't agree with his politics (and his view on how disastrous democrats would be) but, based purely on this sound clip, he comes across as an honest, thoughtful, passionate politician who I could respect whilst disagreeing with.

So will it be 'fake news' when a Republican Senator says Trump mocks evangelicals behind their backs? Presumably the RINO challenges will come thick and fast, which is ironic as he comes across as very Republican - indeed his criticism of Trump is that he is not being Republican.

Loved the 'TV loving narcissist' bit.

Captain_Swoop 16th October 2020 04:30 AM

Trump Tweets

Wow, this has never been done in history. This includes his really bad interview last night. Why is Twitter doing this. Bringing more attention to Sleepy Joe & Big T
Quote Tweet

Twitter Shuts Down Entire Network To Slow Spread Of Negative Biden News
SAN FRANCISCO, CA—In a last-ditch effort to stop negative stories about Joe Biden and his family from spreading, Twitter shut down its entire social network Thursday.After seeing account after...
babylonbee.com

Firestone 16th October 2020 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13259394)
Trump Tweets

Wow, this has never been done in history. This includes his really bad interview last night. Why is Twitter doing this. Bringing more attention to Sleepy Joe & Big T
Quote Tweet

Twitter Shuts Down Entire Network To Slow Spread Of Negative Biden News
SAN FRANCISCO, CA—In a last-ditch effort to stop negative stories about Joe Biden and his family from spreading, Twitter shut down its entire social network Thursday.After seeing account after...
babylonbee.com

:jaw-dropp

Although I fully trust Captain_Swoop, for this one I had to check Twitter to ascertain it was a real tweet.

It is ...

No words ...

turingtest 16th October 2020 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13259394)
Trump Tweets

Wow, this has never been done in history. This includes his really bad interview last night. Why is Twitter doing this. Bringing more attention to Sleepy Joe & Big T
Quote Tweet

Twitter Shuts Down Entire Network To Slow Spread Of Negative Biden News
SAN FRANCISCO, CA—In a last-ditch effort to stop negative stories about Joe Biden and his family from spreading, Twitter shut down its entire social network Thursday.After seeing account after...
babylonbee.com

Oh my dear lord. This tweet will disappear soon, I think- the President of the United States just tweeted an article about Twitter shutting down completely, without any apparent awareness that the article is satire, and the Babylon Bee is a satire site, a conservative Onion wannabe. More evidence, if it's needed, that conservatives really don't quite get the concept of humor.

Aidoneus 16th October 2020 04:45 AM

Yep, looks like the tweet is gone.

turingtest 16th October 2020 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firestone (Post 13259396)
:jaw-dropp

Although I fully trust Captain_Swoop, for this one I had to check Twitter to ascertain it was a real tweet.

It is ...

No words ...

Yup. Let's see how long before it gets memory-holed.

There's just no getting around it- for all the Trumpers screaming about Biden's mental capacities, Trumps really is just a complete ******* moron.

ETA- still up as of this edit.

Firestone 16th October 2020 04:56 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by turingtest (Post 13259402)
Yup. Let's see how long before it gets memory-holed.

There's just no getting around it- for all the Trumpers screaming about Biden's mental capacities, Trumps really is just a complete ******* moron.

ETA- still up as of this edit.

It's 4D chess, apparently. :faint:

Attachment 43282

Captain_Swoop 16th October 2020 04:57 AM

it's the second time Trump has posted a Bab Bee story.

Captain_Swoop 16th October 2020 04:59 AM

Trump Retweeted

James Woods
@RealJamesWoods
Number one!!!!! I can’t call you my “followers,” because you are so much more than that. You are truly my heroes. #CrookedJoeBiden is trending NUMBER ONE in Politics, and the mainstream media can no longer cover for him. Thank you, patriots.

turingtest 16th October 2020 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firestone (Post 13259404)
It's 4D chess, apparently. :faint:

Attachment 43282

Wow. That is how Trump has been able to get away with his con for so long- there's just never any shortage of idiots ready to do the heavy lifting of dedicated and uncritical belief that anything he says must be genius.

Armitage72 16th October 2020 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turingtest (Post 13259411)
Wow. That is how Trump has been able to get away with his con for so long- there's just never any shortage of idiots ready to do the heavy lifting of dedicated and uncritical belief that anything he says must be genius.


It reminds me of when Frank Miller lost his mind and started writing complete rubbish, and some of his fans insisted that he was writing brilliant deliberate parodies of his earlier quality work.

Safe-Keeper 16th October 2020 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turingtest (Post 13259411)
Wow. That is how Trump has been able to get away with his con for so long- there's just never any shortage of idiots ready to do the heavy lifting of dedicated and uncritical belief that anything he says must be genius.

It reminds me a lot of religious people twisting Abrahamic scripture to try to make it compatible with the 21st century.

Craig4 16th October 2020 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13258467)
What makes you think a lawsuit will stop it?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/14/polit...ist/index.html

This is white privilege in action. If a black group were doing it, the LAPD would **** them up six ways from Sunday. Since it's well-off, white Republicans, they're going to court. It's it's against law, arrest the people doing it.

Segnosaur 16th October 2020 06:14 AM

Re: Senator Sasse criticising Trump...
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen (Post 13259321)
Wow, that's powerful stuff.

I don't agree with his politics (and his view on how disastrous democrats would be) but, based purely on this sound clip, he comes across as an honest, thoughtful, passionate politician who I could respect whilst disagreeing with.

Yes he certainly showed a lot of integrity when he stood up to Trump all those times in the Senate.

No wait... He voted to confirm Trump's nominees along with the rest of the republican senators. And when he actually had a chance to try to remove this blight from office (i.e. the impeachment)? Again, he stood silent.

I guess the question is, why criticize Trump now, since I don't think he is not running for re-election this year. I suspect it is because he thinks Trump will lose and he wants to position himself as an anti-trumper early (perhaps for his own long-term political goals) even though he supports the Stubby Mcbonespurs/Moscow Mitch agenda. That is not being honest or passionate, that is being a crass opportunist.

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

JoeMorgue 16th October 2020 06:16 AM

Yeah a lot of Republicans are going to start to try and impress us with some version of "Trump? Oh I always hated Trump" now that it no longer matters.

And again hasn't the fact that a lot of Republicans criticize Trump behind closed doors but fold in public not exactly been a secret for a while now?

Captain_Swoop 16th October 2020 06:17 AM

Trump Tweets

There is a nasty rumor out there that @SenatorCollins of Maine will not be supporting our great United States Supreme Court Nominee. Well, she didn’t support Healthcare or my opening up 5000 square miles of Ocean to Maine, so why should this be any different. Not worth the work!

Big T was not a reference to me, but rather to Big Tech, which should have been properly pointed out in Twitter’s Fake Trending Section!

Steve Scully of @cspan had a very bad week. When his name was announced, I said he would not be appropriate because of conflicts. I was right! Then he said he was hacked, he wasn’t. I was right again! But his biggest mistake was “confiding” in a lowlife loser like the Mooch. Sad!

Horatius 16th October 2020 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13259281)
See, here's an example. There is no evidence that is the goal of the CA GOP. Remember there is no question CA will vote for Biden. It isn't close and not subject to a serious challenge.

So is there a down ballot issue you think the GOP is going to challenge the votes on because of their own ballot boxes?


They've been told in no uncertain terms that these boxes are illegal, and any votes left in them will almost certainly be invalid as a result.

Their response was to double down on using the boxes.

That is not the response of an organization that was honestly trying to increase access to voting, but just made a mistake in interpreting the law.

JoeMorgue 16th October 2020 06:25 AM

"LOL you can't prove our illegal ballot boxes that we refuse to remove despite a court order have anything to do with us trying to effect the election."

My God what a wonderful world of Algonquin Round Table argumentatives we live in. Surely we are blessed to live in a such a gilded age of discourse.

phiwum 16th October 2020 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 13258267)
"Donald Trump continues to trail his presidential challenger Joe Biden by as much as 17 points in the national polls and acknowledged his concern during his latest rally appearance in Des Moines, Iowa, on Wednesday night, telling his loyal crowd: "For me to only be up six [in Iowa], I'm a little bit concerned, I'll tell you that."

In a further sign of his desperation, the president later tweeted an astonishing plea to voters in the solidly-Democratic state of California, asking them “WHAT THE HELL DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE?” in voting for him."

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...?ocid=msedgdhp

Man, the phrase "What do you have to lose?" was not quite so ridiculous four years ago. Pretty easy to answer it these days.

Tero 16th October 2020 06:45 AM

Rudy will get his check from Trump, some day. Though not from Trump directly, he never pays. Fake Hunter Biden computer generated hundreds of social media site responses.

Wikipedia included an article linked to the Hunter page that covers the fake computer NY Post story. It will probably be removed. See under the Talk tab:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:B...spiracy_theory

There is a concept of "what does most media say" involved.

The Great Zaganza 16th October 2020 07:16 AM

I don't see how Rudy will escape a charge of illegal lobbying and conspiracy except by dying at the right time.

Safe-Keeper 16th October 2020 07:37 AM

Here's a poignant music video from the Lincoln Project.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


It's like watching a music video based on footage from some dystopian TV series. My heart bleeds for the States.

TragicMonkey 16th October 2020 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13259507)
I don't see how Rudy will escape a charge of illegal lobbying and conspiracy except by dying at the right time.

Sounds pretty good, let's do that!

JoeMorgue 16th October 2020 07:56 AM

This is one of the major downside to most everyone in politics being in the "Statistically died about 10 years ago" demographic. There's really no way to punish them.

JoeMorgue 16th October 2020 08:04 AM

More seriously one major issue is a whole lot of people have gambled a whole lot of wrong doing on hoping that Trump will just bail them out / cover it up / bury it / refuse to act /whatever.

When he leaves office there's going to be a lot of people with nothing to lose who suddenly have the rug pulled out from under them.

That's what scares me. A lot of people have a very, very vested interested in keeping Trump in power to save their own asses.

phiwum 16th October 2020 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turingtest (Post 13259398)
Oh my dear lord. This tweet will disappear soon, I think- the President of the United States just tweeted an article about Twitter shutting down completely, without any apparent awareness that the article is satire, and the Babylon Bee is a satire site, a conservative Onion wannabe. More evidence, if it's needed, that conservatives really don't quite get the concept of humor.

Well, there's the source. And then there's the fact that he TWEETED that TWITTER was shut down.

JoeMorgue 16th October 2020 08:17 AM

////

phiwum 16th October 2020 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13259466)
"LOL you can't prove our illegal ballot boxes that we refuse to remove despite a court order have anything to do with us trying to effect the election."

My God what a wonderful world of Algonquin Round Table argumentatives we live in. Surely we are blessed to live in a such a gilded age of discourse.

So far, I'm not outraged by the boxes. They are explicitly for ballot harvesting in GOP areas. Unless the harvesters break the law by not delivering every ballot harvested, then I don't see a necessarily nefarious plot. Ballot harvesting is legal in CA.

Of course, there is a big red flag that they are labeled as "official" sites, which is apparently (and reasonably) a crime. I won't defend the labeling or refusal to respond as demanded by the state AG (hope that's the right office).

And, of course, it's totally possible that there are some nefarious schemes for which we have no evidence. But ballots are sealed, so it can't be that they're tossing Democrat ballots out. Some have suggested it's for planted doubts in the election by tossing GOP ballots out and then "discovering" them, showing fraud. Totally could be, but I won't presume this is going on. Anyway, it's too late for that scheme to work now.

I understand that the GOP has worked hard to cast confusion into this election and so we should be chary with the benefit of the doubt. I'm still not willing to presume the worst I can imagine without some evidence.

Horatius 16th October 2020 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum (Post 13259579)
So far, I'm not outraged by the boxes. They are explicitly for ballot harvesting in GOP areas. Unless the harvesters break the law by not delivering every ballot harvested, then I don't see a necessarily nefarious plot. Ballot harvesting is legal in CA.


Except that, as has been pointed out several times, they are ignoring the rules related to proper ballot harvesting. These rules are not overly complicated, but they still haven't managed to follow them.

This is like someone getting a ticket for not having working brake lights on their car arguing that "Hey, driving is legal!" It's a trivially true statement that completely ignores the actual issue at hand.

Not that we actually expect anything better from the Trump Party.

bonzombiekitty 16th October 2020 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum (Post 13259579)
So far, I'm not outraged by the boxes. They are explicitly for ballot harvesting in GOP areas. Unless the harvesters break the law by not delivering every ballot harvested, then I don't see a necessarily nefarious plot. Ballot harvesting is legal in CA.

I was under the impression that in CA it's legal only if the voter puts the name of the person they have authorized to submit their ballot for them. Can't really do that when you don't know who is going to be collecting the ballots from those boxes.

JoeMorgue 16th October 2020 08:36 AM

If it's "assuming the worst" to claim that a party is just going to do what they are openly admitting they are attempting to do, I give up.

Again the Republicans aren't exactly hiding the fact that they are going to screw with this election. Even their apologetics and double-speak about it is sort of lifeless at this point.

There's "being fair" and "keeping an open mind" and then there's "Well the Democrats are saying the Republicans are going to screw with the election, but on the other hand the Republicans are saying the Republicans are going to screw with the election, so I don't know what to believe."

Skeptic Ginger 16th October 2020 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aridas (Post 13259304)
Because it fairly certainly is. Yes, I get that this is the Trump era, where Republicans openly and brazenly flout the law, but crime should not be normalized.

Way to miss the point.

Yes, and it was such a serious violation the boxes were immediately removed from private property and an investigation was started as to who to charge. :rolleyes:

Actually misrepresenting the boxes as "official", not the boxes themselves, may have been what was illegal. The GOP agreed to remove boxes labeled "official" and relabel them.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Aridas (Post 13259304)
Are you of the crowd that only values things like electoral integrity and security when you think they will benefit "your side?" Similarly, Rule of Law? Should people stop being offended by rank hypocrisy in politics?

You do know which side I'm on, right? I think you need to look in the mirror.

I'm defending the GOP's side because they presented a rational argument that they were merely doing what the law allowed (harvesting ballots) and which the Democrats had done the previous year.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Aridas (Post 13259304)
Either way, it sure looks like you've seized upon just ONE of the potential concerns - one of the less impactful and less likely ones, really - and are harping on it as if that's all anyone could possibly be concerned about.

I have seized upon the fact this is not the outrageous crime it is being portrayed as.

Was the goal to get Democratic ballots and toss them out? Or was the goal to make it easier for Republicans to vote, something legal in CA?


If you can't beat them, join them. LA Times: California officials say GOP’s ballot boxes are illegal. Republicans may expand the practice Sorry, it's paywalled after your monthly allotment of free articles but there are multiple sources of the story.
Quote:

For years, Republicans across the country have decried the use of so-called “ballot harvesting,” arguing that laws that allow a third party to collect voters’ completed ballots serve as a breeding ground for election fraud. In California, the state’s Republican Party has taken Gov. Gavin Newsom and other officials to court over the practice.

Now, California’s GOP is defending its use of the very ballot collection law it once sued over....

At the center of the battle are questions of whether it is legal to collect ballots through third party boxes and also what constitutes an “official” ballot drop box. California law says a mail voter may designate another person to return their ballot....

A party spokesman told the Associated Press that they would stop labeling their ballot boxes “official” to avoid confusion and said that they may expand their use.

The issue:
Quote:

According to experts, the use of third-party ballot collection boxes is not illegal, but the false designation of an “official” drop-off box is because the boxes are not sanctioned by election officials.
I don't know which experts they are citing.

The GOP contends the people putting their ballots in the boxes know who they are entrusting the ballots to given the locations of the boxes. They agree the boxes need to have more clear labeling.

Here's an example of a possibly misleading statement by the person interviewed:
Quote:

Macías, of the Brennan Center for Justice, said that it would be one thing for a voter to designate a gun store owner as a person to return a ballot on their behalf, rather than a box in front of the store.
The GOP rep said the boxes were inside the stores. Correction: One box is pictured outside a church in the CNN article. There's no big label saying official collection box. That box was removed.


Besides labeling which the GOP has agreed to change, one's POV depends on how one views the GOP motives.
Quote:

Macías said he believes that the GOP wants to bring attention to their opposition of the state law “by trolling election officials.”

“These tactics fit a familiar pattern of attempting to suppress voting,” he said. “Undermining confidence, creating confusion, spreading disinformation — these are forms of voter suppression. It lays a groundwork to later claim you can’t trust the voter results.”
Troll election officials to bring attention to disagreement with the law?

And/or undermine confidence in mail-in ballots?

Or how about, if you can't beat them join them?

The fact these boxes were all in places GOP members of the public would be likely to put their ballots in the boxes, not places members of the public at large would put their ballots in them, suggests it's the last option.

Skeptic Ginger 16th October 2020 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch (Post 13259307)
I wouldn't be so quick to ascribe innocent motives to the GOP on anything. These ballot boxes could well be a means to nefarious plans. In a state that's assuredly lost to them at least as regards the Presidential vote, there's hardly a downside to sacrificing those collected votes if some 'accident' were to occur and thus give ammunition to a claim of 'uncertainty' in the result.

If we can imagine it, those scumbags will. And worse, because these are desperate times for them.

There are many down ballot issues the GOP may be aiming at.

Mader Levap 16th October 2020 09:45 AM

Skeptic Ginger, thing is that no one here (beside rethuglican astroturfers, of course) trust anything done by GOP.

Skeptic Ginger 16th October 2020 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13259312)
You're right, the California GOP haven't been clear what their motives for installing illegal ballot boxes are. Upthread, I offered a number of possible motives.

That said, if you're of a conspiratorial mindset, the GOP in California isn't going to be pulling up trees so why not sacrifice California (by dumping ballots) to create national doubt.

Yes they did make it clear. And your hypotheticals were not among them and not logical given the location of the ballot boxes.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, ignoring the information that is clearly available and going with the headlines and gut feelings.


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