International Skeptics Forum - Covid-19 and Politics

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International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)

- Non-USA & General Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=98)

- - Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

P.J. Denyer

18th June 2020 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lomiller (Post 13129620)

That’s Soccer to you now that BJ is adopting US standards to get a trade agreement. :p

Soccer players will adjust. Netball and Rounders players are rubbing their hands. Rugby players are in for a shock....

Darat

18th June 2020 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13129413)

The government strongly suggested that the decision not to roll out the track and trace application wasn't due to the fact that the application was a complete failure and was instead because "some people" expressed a preference in dealing with human trackers.

That explanation has been undermined somewhat by this annoucement:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53095336

There's no problem with the technology, but in a completely unrelated move, the government has decided to change to a different technology. :rolleyes:

I've been involved with a number of large government IT projects and sooner or later the idea of a Version 0 comes up, a face-saving, low functionality release to spare blushes - all this has the whiff of a Version 0 in the offing:

In other words, none of the actual difficult functionality. I've had a Covid-19 symptom tracking app on my phone for months as part of a large study. The much vaunted government application which is still months away doesn't provide much more functionality than that.

What a complete shambles :mad:

The leaked "reason" is that it wasn't working very well on iPhones... colour me surprised that Apple wasn't going to expose hardware and alter their permission and notification system just for the UK for their tracking when they have refused to do so to everyone else in the world and provided an API that could have been used.

What makes this even more jaw dropping is that this isn't the 1st time this has happened for the UK government.

Planigale

18th June 2020 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pixel42 (Post 13129144)

That's deaths with positive result. Excess deaths are now over 64,000. So it depends how you count them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

But then you would need to count excess deaths not directly due to bombing but attributable to bombing.

These comparisons of apples and onions are really pretty pointless. Lots of people died that is a bad and a sad thing. Comparing it some other awful thing makes it no better or worse.

It is slightly less use than pointing out deaths from TB this year (a curable bacterial airborne infection) are twice those from covid-19. If the world got itself together and spent as much effort on controlling TB and HIV as they have on covid-19 they would be pretty well eradicated. TB and HIV kill young people, every year, they did last year and they will next year and they will be doing so when covid-19 is no longer an issue.

catsmate

18th June 2020 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13129134)

I think you misinterpret what the article says,

No.
1. BuBu and his "government" stated that a track and trace app was a prerequisite for lifting lockdown restrictions.
2. Restrictsions are being lifted without a functional app of this nature.
:rolleyes:

catsmate

18th June 2020 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13129137)

Is this true, good sound bite, but can I trust what you post?

Can we trust anything you post?

Total Covid-19 excess deaths: ~65k
Total confirmed Covid-19 deaths: ~42k
Total UK 'Blitz' fatalities: ~40-43k
Total UK civilian fatalities: ~67k
Total UK civilian fatalities from aerial bombing: ~61k

catsmate

18th June 2020 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13129149)

Actually maybe I should falsely concede the point and suggest that the government should proudly announce:

"The UK's Coronavirus response - not quite as effective as the Luftwaffe" :rolleyes:

Oh there are plenty more to come. I'd say by the end of July even BuBu's apologists won't be able to hide the reality of the numbers.

catsmate

18th June 2020 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13129191)

Plenty of time though, the war lasted for years.

True, the 'Blitz' lasted eleven months, Steinbock lasted three months and the rockets nine.

catsmate

18th June 2020 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13129195)

Given Johnson's desire to be like Churchill, forum members located in Coventry may wish to stay with friends for a while.

Stuck on a plinth in Parliament Square and occasionally daubed with paint?

Captain_Swoop

18th June 2020 03:07 PM

The Govt have quietly announced they are terminating student nurse 6 month contracts out of the blue, after paying them for only one month of Covid-19 work, leaving them without income as a good number gave up other work to take the contracts.
Why is no one talking about this?

jadebox

18th June 2020 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McHrozni (Post 13129271)

Ten US states are seeing resurgance and the Second Coming: Alabama, Arizona, California, Nevada, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Carolina and Texas.

Florida is obviously the tenth that was left out of your list. The number of cases is rising dramatically. The governor is claiming that it is due to more testing and a few hotspots so it isn't anything to worry about. Well, I am more than a little worried.

Trebuchet

18th June 2020 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadebox (Post 13130032)

Testing causes Coronavirus. Ask any Republican.

Puppycow

18th June 2020 08:25 PM

Tokyo lifts all coronavirus restrictions on businesses

Quote:

TOKYO (Kyodo) -- Tokyo lifted all restrictions on businesses on Friday amid signs that the coronavirus pandemic is waning in the Japanese capital, although concerns remain over a potential second wave of infections.

People in Japan will no longer be asked to refrain from crossing prefectural borders as the central government also lifted the restriction in the hope of giving a boost to the country's economic activities that had been slowed by the pandemic.

The metropolitan government withdrew its temporary closure request on live music venues, nightclubs and similar entertainment establishments where people come into close contact in enclosed spaces, exiting the last phase of its three-step restriction easing process.

Most other businesses had already begun operating under previous steps.

Japan, however, remains effectively closed to the vast majority of international tourists. They are going to allow some people in from a small handful of countries including Australia and New Zealand. Disneyland is still closed too and I see no announcement yet of plans to reopen.

Not sure if this is more of a science or politics question, but the live music venues and nightclubs seems a bit risky. I wonder if people will actually return to these activities in large numbers or not? Karaoke seems like another activity to avoid, but the government is allowing them to reopen.

McHrozni

18th June 2020 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadebox (Post 13130032)

Florida never ended its first wave, that's why it won't have a second.

McHrozni

The Don

19th June 2020 12:08 AM

Some Welsh politicians are not happy with the UK government's approach to rushing to lift the "lockdown".

Quote:

The UK government has "given-up" on a "science-led approach" to coronavirus, a Welsh Labour minister has claimed.

Lee Waters said London-based ministers have made announcements at their daily press conferences without thinking them through.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-53077578

The Don

19th June 2020 12:19 AM

Meanwhile a pub chain owner is threatening the government:

Quote:

The founder of the pub chain Oakman Inns has vowed to reopen all of its sites on 4 July even if the government has not relaxed restrictions.

"We cannot wait for the government to make a decision," Peter Borg-Neal wrote on Twitter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53094134

"Our profits are more important than your life" :rolleyes:

The Don

19th June 2020 01:44 AM

Another BBC story looking at the statistics of how well the UK seems to have handled the Coronavirus outbreak:

Quote:

But by any measure, the UK consistently appears in this unhappy club of countries hardest hit so far. Even before the pandemic, the UK's life expectancy was lower than in many other western European countries and showed the least improvement from 2011 to 2018.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-53078368

Yay for Boris Johnson and the Conservative led governments he has been part of for the last 10 years :rolleyes:

The UK used to be figuratively the "sick man of Europe" in the 1970s. The economic impact of Coronavirus has been worst in the UK so now there's a real chance that we'll e both figuratively and literally the the "sick man of Europe" in the 2020s. :mad:

KDLarsen

19th June 2020 01:59 AM

Pleasant news from the Danish government yesterday, as they're proposing opening up the borders to travellers from (and more importantly, allowing travel to) EU27 + the UK, provided that infection levels are sufficiently low (which rules out Sweden and Portugal), that local rules allows for smooth travel (ie. no quarantine, which rules out travelling to the UK and Ireland), and a suitable testing regime is in place (so we'll have to wait another week for a list of countries to be published).

Captain_Swoop

19th June 2020 03:37 AM

COVID-19 alert level in the UK lowered from four to three

Hancock said the change was "a big moment for the country" and showed that the government's plan was working.

The Don

19th June 2020 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13130464)

COVID-19 alert level in the UK lowered from four to three

Hancock said the change was "a big moment for the country" and showed that the government's plan was working.

I suppose it depends on what the government's plan is.

If the plan is to lower the COVID-19 alert level regardless of the country's true preparedness to do so and the underlying science - then the government's plan is working.

If the plan is to have the highest per capita death toll in Europe and the longest "tail" to the first wave of infection - then the government's plan is working.

If the plan is to respond effectively to the biggest public health emergency in decades - then the government's plan is not really working. The parts of the UK which control their own destiny, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Channel Islands, Isle of Man and so on seem to be doing a much better job of managing Coronavirus than England.

Arcade22

19th June 2020 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KDLarsen (Post 13130416)

Actually it depends on where you live in Sweden. I live in a region that has sufficiently low level of new infections that Danes apparently feel it's safe enough to let me in. Not that I'm going to visit any time soon.

No Other

19th June 2020 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13130464)

COVID-19 alert level in the UK lowered from four to three

Hancock said the change was "a big moment for the country" and showed that the government's plan was working.

Found this article interesting:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-con...-diseases-hcid

zooterkin

19th June 2020 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13129958)

It’s been in my Facebook feed for a few days now.

Captain_Swoop

19th June 2020 10:55 AM

so the world beating CrapApp has cost us £250,000,000 paid to Serco and it's now in the bin.
well played, they deserve to be in prison.

catsmate

19th June 2020 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13129958)

Because people are buying your government's bollocks about the Covid pandemic being basically over?

catsmate

19th June 2020 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13130369)

Meanwhile a pub chain owner is threatening the government:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53094134

"Our profits are more important than your life" :rolleyes:

You expected different? How over here he's be roundly condemned and reminded that to be a licensee one must "be of good character" and his criminality would be brought to the judge's attention at the Licensing Sessions.
In post-Cummings era UK the government will cave.

catsmate

19th June 2020 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13130680)

Hmm, probably wise.

catsmate

19th June 2020 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13130968)

so the world beating CrapApp has cost us £250,000,000 paid to Serco and it's now in the bin.
well played, they deserve to be in prison.

Meh, probably not in the top thirty worst UKGov IT projects. No-one got wrongly locked up...

dudalb

19th June 2020 11:32 AM

US is headed for disaster.
And I blame the anti science arttitude on the right, for which the Christian Fundies are largely responsbile. Fact is the Fundies hate science because it conflicts with their book of Fairy Tales.

Blue Mountain

19th June 2020 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13130968)

so the world beating CrapApp has cost us £250,000,000 paid to Serco and it's now in the bin.
well played, they deserve to be in prison.

£250,000,000?? For a bloody Android and iPhone app? I've heard of "sunk cost," but this is ridiculous! 2.5 million, maybe. But 250 million? Let me guess: one million went to the analysts and programmers, and 249 went to "consulting fees."

Also, is there a source for the 250 million number?

Mojo	19th June 2020 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppycow (Post 13130278)

Karaoke seems like another activity to avoid...

True, but not necessarily anything to do with coronavirus.

P.J. Denyer

19th June 2020 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13130968)

so the world beating CrapApp has cost us £250,000,000 paid to Serco and it's now in the bin.
well played, they deserve to be in prison.

Don't they run the prison yet? What are they paying so many politicians for?

Captain_Swoop

19th June 2020 07:00 PM

Servo did have contracts in the prisons and probation service

The Don

19th June 2020 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain (Post 13131135)

I think this is for the whole programme including the 25,000 human tracers, not just the app.

Squeegee Beckenheim

20th June 2020 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13131030)

You do know this is the non-USA politics section, right? There's a covid and US politics thread in the US politics section.

Darat

20th June 2020 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13131512)

I think this is for the whole programme including the 25,000 human tracers, not just the app.

I've heard that the developer's contract was for 5 million, but that's from the grapevine so I can't prove it.

Darat

20th June 2020 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13131391)

Servo did have contracts in the prisons and probation service

And what a success they made of those contracts....

Carrot Flower King

20th June 2020 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 13130985)

Because people are buying your government's bollocks about the Covid pandemic being basically over?

Only numpties like my next-door neighbour, who thinks Johnson is doing a good job.

A lot of the rest of us know better than to believe anything thhis shower say about pretty much anything: they aren't The Government of the No Talents for nothing.

jimbob

20th June 2020 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Other (Post 13130842)

Found this article interesting:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-con...-diseases-hcid

From that:

Quote:

Status of COVID-19
As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious disease (HCID) in the UK.

The 4 nations public health HCID group made an interim recommendation in January 2020 to classify COVID-19 as an HCID. This was based on consideration of the UK HCID criteria about the virus and the disease with information available during the early stages of the outbreak. Now that more is known about COVID-19, the public health bodies in the UK have reviewed the most up to date information about COVID-19 against the UK HCID criteria. They have determined that several features have now changed; in particular, more information is available about mortality rates (low overall), and there is now greater clinical awareness and a specific and sensitive laboratory test, the availability of which continues to increase.

The Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP) is also of the opinion that COVID-19 should no longer be classified as an HCID.

The need to have a national, coordinated response remains, but this is being met by the government’s COVID-19 response.

Cases of COVID-19 are no longer managed by HCID treatment centres only. All healthcare workers managing possible and confirmed cases should follow the updated national infection and prevention (IPC) guidance for COVID-19, which supersedes all previous IPC guidance for COVID-19. This guidance includes instructions about different personal protective equipment (PPE) ensembles that are appropriate for different clinical scenarios.

Yes the reasoning seems a little suspect.

Quote:

Definition of HCID
In the UK, a high consequence infectious disease (HCID) is defined according to the following criteria:

acute infectious disease
typically has a high case-fatality rate
may not have effective prophylaxis or treatment
often difficult to recognise and detect rapidly
ability to spread in the community and within healthcare settings
requires an enhanced individual, population and system response to ensure it is managed effectively, efficiently and safely

The highlighted is the only thing that is debatable. And with something like a 1% fatality rate and a high chance of infection, coupled with many more suffering long-term effects, this looks more like a political decision. And because of the behaviour of this government - they've lost the right to the benefit of the doubt.

At the time there was a fuss. Now it looks even worse.

Captain_Swoop

20th June 2020 07:59 AM

CB/Dyson ventilators
Serco/Deloitte CV19 testing
Pestco
CummingsRelativeApp

Makes you think.

jimbob

20th June 2020 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13131752)

CB/Dyson ventilators
Serco/Deloitte CV19 testing
Pestco
CummingsRelativeApp

Makes you think.

And not COVID-19 related, but in the "let's reinvent the log roller when everyone else is discussing pneumatic tyres" game - the idea that the UK could be able to create an alternative to the Galileo/Glonass/GPS system. Obviously it could, because the UK is *still* richer than Russia, but it would be utterly stupid.

Or, the strong rumours about leaving the Erasmus scheme and trying to start it's own one.

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