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-   -   I am intending to go to a Spiritualist Church. (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=339332)

wasapi 2nd October 2019 11:32 AM

I am intending to go to a Spiritualist Church.
 
A friend/neighbor, is the definition of woo. She holds seances and uses a Ouija board. Crystals, astrology, the whole shebang. The thing is, she has a delightful personality. She reminds me of a fairy, always tenting her flowers and animals. She doesn't force anything woo, and we have many other things in common. She is a unique and talented artist and cartoonist.

She just asked me to go with her to a local Spiritualist Church this Friday, And, I'm thinking, why not? It may be interesting. I know that Scorpion has gone, anyone else?

Thor 2 2nd October 2019 03:13 PM

Wear a cross and carry a vial of holy water just in case.

Scorpion 2nd October 2019 03:22 PM

Don't expect too much on your first visit, the medium may not come to you with a message. I went every week for two years before I was convinced some mediums were genuine. By that time I had received quite a number of evidential personal messages.

theprestige 2nd October 2019 03:34 PM

Be nice. Play along as much as you can, for politeness sake.

Spend some time in advance thinking about how you can politely decline or deflect woo commitments that you're not comfortable pretending to make.

Remember that your goal is to preserve an amicable relationship with your friend/neighbor.

To be honest, you seem like a genuinely kind and tolerant person. I'm sure you'll do fine, and probably don't need any advice from this crowd.

Apathia 2nd October 2019 04:40 PM

Laugh a lot. Laugh a whole lot.

Trebuchet 2nd October 2019 04:43 PM

Better than going to a fundy outfit. Far less likely to tell you are going straight to hell if you don't buy their ********.
Note: The above asterisked word was used by the President of the USA in a tweet today. But the fundies still love him.

theprestige 2nd October 2019 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apathia (Post 12842184)
Laugh a lot. Laugh a whole lot.

Q.E.D.

theprestige 2nd October 2019 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12842187)
Better than going to a fundy outfit. Far less likely to tell you are going straight to hell if you don't buy their ********.
Note: The above asterisked word was used by the President of the USA in a tweet today. But the fundies still love him.

This thread has nothing to do with President Trump. Why can't you escape him, even in your own head?

P.J. Denyer 2nd October 2019 05:17 PM

Remember to bare in mind that anything that you've ever said to your neighbour might have been (innocently) passed on when talking about the nice person next door she's going to bring... If so you might get a message sooner than our resident believer thinks.

MinnesotaBrant 2nd October 2019 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12842187)
Better than going to a fundy outfit. Far less likely to tell you are going straight to hell if you don't buy their ********.
Note: The above asterisked word was used by the President of the USA in a tweet today. But the fundies still love him.

I have been told that by my former pastor who, falling on hard times, was headed to the plasma center to make some cash. Religion seems a hard life for some folks. I am guessing he got caught running a cash business.

The Greater Fool 2nd October 2019 05:30 PM

I was raised in a fundamentalist church that convinced me even attending a reception in any other religion or religious sect was, basically, something that would be unacceptable to god.

Thus, I could not be best-man in my best friend / brother-in-laws wedding, nor even attend the reception and even stepping in the church was an issue, a decision I have since regretted every day of my life.

Not long after, I realized religion was crazy, I was crazy for not attending, and that religion would no longer dominate my choices.

Unfortunately, for a fair number of years even stepping foot in a religious space would be beyond the pale. No church ever, period.

Which I realized after my BIL / Best Friend had died, would have STILL kept me from sharing his joy.

Now, I realize my non-existent eternal soul would NOT be jeopardized by being in a [false] church. My nominally spouse's non-sectarian but baptist inclinations will not prevent me from attending services with her, if she asks.

A large part of my understanding of this point was Robert Lancaster, who did as much for his wife. Why not? It costs me nothing but a little time, which is well worth it to support my spouse.

Enjoy it, it should be quite the experience.

And.. again... Thank you Robert.

JoeMorgue 2nd October 2019 05:31 PM

Don't treat it with any more respect then you treat being asked to go to a traditional church.

Don't treat it with less respect either.

Where exactly that level of respect is is not a question other people can answer for you.

EHocking 2nd October 2019 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 (Post 12842119)
Wear a cross and carry a vial of holy water just in case.

Wear a pentagon and carry a vial of virgins blood just in case.
[/Devilís Advocate]*





* literally

bluesjnr 2nd October 2019 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12842187)
Better than going to a fundy outfit. Far less likely to tell you are going straight to hell if you don't buy their ********.
Note: The above asterisked word was used by the President of the USA in a tweet today. But the fundies still love him.

Bluesjnrs rule...... thread Trumped!

bluesjnr 2nd October 2019 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12842134)
Be nice. Play along as much as you can, for politeness sake.

Spend some time in advance thinking about how you can politely decline or deflect woo commitments that you're not comfortable pretending to make.

Remember that your goal is to preserve an amicable relationship with your friend/neighbor.

To be honest, you seem like a genuinely kind and tolerant person. I'm sure you'll do fine, and probably don't need any advice from this crowd.

This.

ehhz 3rd October 2019 12:46 AM

Your friend sounds like someone who has a good grasp of human nature, perhaps owing to some innocent naivety on her part, but it's also possible she might be able to understand people better than they know themselves. Contact with genuinely creative and artistic people is a rare privilege.

Recourse to a facade/mask, even out of common courtesy or obligation, would be easily seen through by such a person.

Try to be more sincere in understanding and appreciating her views and if possible, gently maneuver her towards an elevated scientific form of spirituality if she is unwilling to give all of it up.

Regrettably, spirituality has ceased to be an investigation and has been turned into a trade of charlatans and opportunists.

Wudang 3rd October 2019 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 12842204)
Remember to bare in mind that anything that you've ever said to your neighbour might have been (innocently) passed on when talking about the nice person next door she's going to bring... If so you might get a message sooner than our resident believer thinks.

Quoted for emphasis.
My googling can't confirm it as my results are flooded with pro-woo stuff but Chris Brookmyre in "Attack of the Unsinkable Rubber Ducks" talks about how psychics swap information on potential clients amongst other tricks. It's plausible and seems likely but I emphasize I have no evidence it happens as yet.

Lothian 3rd October 2019 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorpion (Post 12842124)
Don't expect too much on your first visit, the medium may not come to you with a message. I went every week for two years before I was convinced some mediums were genuine. By that time I had received quite a number of evidential personal messages.

True. It was exactly the same with me. Not a peep until i started to talk to the preachers after the service. Thereafter they would not fail to relay back to me the information I told them. Miraculous.

Scorpion 3rd October 2019 04:27 AM

One more thing , If a medium does come to you with a message, tell them no information. Just answer any questions with a 'yes' or 'no' and don't smile or give them any facial clues. I used to answer them with a toneless voice, so as not to register any interest in what they said.

Lothian 3rd October 2019 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorpion (Post 12842615)
One more thing , If a medium does come to you with a message, tell them no information. Just answer any questions with a 'yes' or 'no' and don't smile or give them any facial clues. I used to answer them with a toneless voice, so as not to register any interest in what they said.

If the medium does come to you, don't answer any questions. Thank them for the message and say you will consider it. You can find out lots of information through questions.

Scorpion, Has your mother passed?

NO - Thought not I got a female for you but she does not feel like your mother, Who could it be?
MY GRAN, - OK , Your Gran is asking.......


YES SHE HAS- I know she is here next to me.

theprestige 3rd October 2019 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EHocking (Post 12842450)
Wear a pentagon and carry a vial of virgins blood just in case.

[/Devilís Advocate]*











* literally

Pentagram.

In some conventions, the pentagon is tool of containment, a magic circle. It's anti devil, not pro devil.

wasapi 3rd October 2019 08:19 AM

My friend has never been to this 'church'. Which should make it more interesting. I want to see her experience and thoughts, as an observer, and then talk about it.

Pope130 3rd October 2019 08:25 AM

It could be interesting to carry an inconspicuous recorder. After the visit you can compare what you, and your friend, recall the spiritualists saying with what was actually said.

rockysmith76 3rd October 2019 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Greater Fool (Post 12842210)
I was raised in a fundamentalist church that convinced me even attending a reception in any other religion or religious sect was, basically, something that would be unacceptable to god.

Thus, I could not be best-man in my best friend / brother-in-laws wedding, nor even attend the reception and even stepping in the church was an issue, a decision I have since regretted every day of my life.

Not long after, I realized religion was crazy, I was crazy for not attending, and that religion would no longer dominate my choices.

Unfortunately, for a fair number of years even stepping foot in a religious space would be beyond the pale. No church ever, period.

Which I realized after my BIL / Best Friend had died, would have STILL kept me from sharing his joy.

Now, I realize my non-existent eternal soul would NOT be jeopardized by being in a [false] church. My nominally spouse's non-sectarian but baptist inclinations will not prevent me from attending services with her, if she asks.

A large part of my understanding of this point was Robert Lancaster, who did as much for his wife. Why not? It costs me nothing but a little time, which is well worth it to support my spouse.

Enjoy it, it should be quite the experience.

And.. again... Thank you Robert.

This: Just go for the experience.

TragicMonkey 3rd October 2019 09:42 AM

Um, is a "spiritualist church" actually related to "spiritualism" in the sense of mediums, etc, as many are assuming? I think "spiritualist" in this context coukd actually refer to a specific set of theological beliefs and practices. If so I fear the experience may be a great deal less interesting than expected; Protestant theology has been a great many things to a great many people but excitement is rarely among them. Except very early on when people burned each other for thinking the wrong things, but it's been months since that happened.

TragicMonkey 3rd October 2019 10:05 AM

Actually, never mind. Just read up on it, apparently self-identified spiritualist churches actually are that kind of spiritualism.

Scorpion 3rd October 2019 10:57 AM

In English spiritualist churches, there are a couple of religious services a week. They consist of what is usually a visiting medium from out of town giving a two part service.
First they give a talk or lecture, (sometimes in a trance). then comes the second part of the meeting in which they give personal messages to some of the members of the congregation.

Pixel42 3rd October 2019 11:09 AM

One thing you might try is a kind of control experiment where you respond positively to something that doesn't actually apply to you, and continue to give positive feedback as the medium fishes. Someone on this board did this a while back and had got the medium to tell him all sorts of interesting stuff that his father (I think it was) wanted to tell him, before finally revealing that his father was still alive and all the stuff he'd agreed was accurate in order to lead the medium astray was, in fact, entirely wrong.

Scorpion 3rd October 2019 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pixel42 (Post 12843086)
One thing you might try is a kind of control experiment where you respond positively to something that doesn't actually apply to you, and continue to give positive feedback as the medium fishes. Someone on this board did this a while back and had got the medium to tell him all sorts of interesting stuff that his father (I think it was) wanted to tell him, before finally revealing that his father was still alive and all the stuff he'd agreed was accurate in order to lead the medium astray was, in fact, entirely wrong.

Or wasapi could give the medium a fair chance, and listen to what is said with an open mind.

bluesjnr 3rd October 2019 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorpion (Post 12843097)
Or wasapi could give the medium a fair chance, and listen to what is said with an open mind.

Of course, there should only be one deceitful person present at a spiritualist meeting and they tend not to be in the audience anyway.

Scorpion 3rd October 2019 11:36 AM

wasapi, you might try a prayer tonight asking your departed relatives to come and give you a message tomorrow. They might not know you are going to go to church, and you could try to alert them ahead of time.

Pixel42 3rd October 2019 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorpion (Post 12843097)
Or wasapi could give the medium a fair chance, and listen to what is said with an open mind.

The problem with that is that wasapi, like every other human being, can be fooled by confirmation bias and subjective validation. What I'm proposing is actually a much fairer test of a medium.

Plus everyone else in the audience will be doing what you suggest. How can you (or the medium) reasonably object to a single control subject?.

TragicMonkey 3rd October 2019 11:51 AM

Jesus, do all of you spend the whole time at a magic show trying to figure out how the tricks are done? Just treat it as entertainment and enjoy the show.

wasapi 3rd October 2019 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12843140)
Jesus, do all of you spend the whole time at a magic show trying to figure out how the tricks are done? Just treat it as entertainment and enjoy the show.

Yes! That is exactly the way I will approach the experience!

The Greater Fool 3rd October 2019 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12843140)
Jesus, do all of you spend the whole time at a magic show trying to figure out how the tricks are done? Just treat it as entertainment and enjoy the show.

Uh, yeah I do try to figure it out. That I can't figure it out is how I can conclude the magician is actually the spawn of Satan.

arthwollipot 3rd October 2019 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12843140)
Jesus, do all of you spend the whole time at a magic show trying to figure out how the tricks are done? Just treat it as entertainment and enjoy the show.

Hell yes I do. Most of the time I can't, though.

Lothian 4th October 2019 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12843140)
Jesus, do all of you spend the whole time at a magic show trying to figure out how the tricks are done? Just treat it as entertainment and enjoy the show.

I am not sure you have the right comparison. You can be hugely entertained and enjoy the show and still try to figure out how it is done.

A better analogy to the spiritualism choices would be "do you all spend the whole time at a magic show trying to figure out how the tricks are done? Just accept magic is real."

P.J. Denyer 4th October 2019 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 12843736)
Hell yes I do. Most of the time I can't, though.

Yep, if I figure it out I'm impressed with myself, if I can't (more often) I'm impressed with the magician.

EHocking 4th October 2019 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12842808)
Pentagram.

In some conventions, the pentagon is tool of containment, a magic circle. It's anti devil, not pro devil.

The Offspring were thinking of me when wrote Pretty Fly.

Belgian thought 4th October 2019 04:41 AM

When you are there, can you get me the winning lottery numbers for next Wednesday in Spain please. Thanks.


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