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-   -   Trans Women are not Women (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325369)

Rolfe 16th May 2019 01:14 AM

People keep talking about the trans person having some sort of an encounter with a medical professional before diagnosis. The proposed reforms to the GRA are aimed at doing away with this. Trans activists say it's demeaning and degrading to have to talk to psychologists or psychiatrists and to show you've gone through a pantomime of LARPing "woman" for two years, and the state should just take their word for it.

That is what the state is proposing to do. (Although opponents have managed to make enough noise about this that the legislation appears to have stalled for the present.)

Archie Gemmill Goal 16th May 2019 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfe (Post 12697356)
People keep talking about the trans person having some sort of an encounter with a medical professional before diagnosis. The proposed reforms to the GRA are aimed at doing away with this. Trans activists say it's demeaning and degrading to have to talk to psychologists or psychiatrists and to show you've gone through a pantomime of LARPing "woman" for two years, and the state should just take their word for it.

That is what the state is proposing to do. (Although opponents have managed to make enough noise about this that the legislation appears to have stalled for the present.)

Again this isn't strictly true.

Of course trans people would have an encounter with a medical professional before transitioning medically and anyone who thought they were trans would and should be encouraged to talk to a doctor about it and seek counselling.

What is proposed to be removed is the process of REQUIRING this for a GRC.

And let's face it, no process is going to satisfy you anyway when you talk about transpeople with such dripping disdain.

Roboramma 16th May 2019 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12697390)
Again this isn't strictly true.

Quote:

What is proposed to be removed is the process of REQUIRING this for a GRC.
So it is strictly true...

JihadJane 16th May 2019 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12697390)
Again this isn't strictly true.

Of course trans people would have an encounter with a medical professional before transitioning medically and anyone who thought they were trans would and should be encouraged to talk to a doctor about it and seek counselling.

What is proposed to be removed is the process of REQUIRING this for a GRC.

This is strictly true:

"People keep talking about the trans person having some sort of an encounter with a medical professional before diagnosis. The proposed reforms to the GRA are aimed at doing away with this."


Quote:

And let's face it, no process is going to satisfy you anyway when you talk about transpeople with such dripping disdain.
Narcissistic accusations are often confessions.

Archie Gemmill Goal 16th May 2019 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12697401)
So it is strictly true...

No, because getting a GRC is not the be all and end all. It doesn't 'do away with' transpeople getting medical help or talking to doctors or counsellors at all.

A GRC is a specific thing for a specific purpose.

Archie Gemmill Goal 16th May 2019 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JihadJane (Post 12697405)
This is strictly true:

"People keep talking about the trans person having some sort of an encounter with a medical professional before diagnosis. The proposed reforms to the GRA are aimed at doing away with this."

No, it isn't. But I am not surprised that you can't see it.



Quote:

Narcissistic accusations are often confessions.
Are you accusing Rolfe of pretending to be a woman? :confused:

Belz... 16th May 2019 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12697050)
It's a point of sorts, badly made.

I suppose we could say that minimizing cringeworthiness is a moral goal worth maximizing, but seriously?

Sorry, where are we disagreeing here? The whole topic is about restrooms, for instance, is because otherwise it makes trans people unhappy. It's not necessarily a bad point, but it is definitely an appeal to emotion.

d4m10n 16th May 2019 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12697432)
The whole topic is about restrooms, for instance, is because otherwise it makes trans people unhappy.

Bit silly to pretend trans people are the only ones with emotional stakes here, when nearly everyone's comfort levels are on the line. Most of the arguments from emotion I've seen on this thread are from gender critical feminists, angry and/or unhappy about having their previously sex-segregated spaces used by people with penises. This isn't really surprising or unusual, most people react badly to having something they value taken away.

Rolfe 16th May 2019 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12697466)
Bit silly to pretend trans people are the only ones with emotional stakes here, when nearly everyone's comfort levels are on the line. Most of the arguments from emotion I've seen on this thread are from gender critical feminists, angry and/or unhappy about having their previously sex-segregated spaces used by people with penises. This isn't really surprising or unusual, most people react badly to having something they value taken away.


This. The debate is often framed as if the trans people's feelings are the only ones that matter. Women's feelings are of so little account that the debate swiftly moves on to matters of safety. Of course safety is important, but it's telling that, if the debate remained on the topic of personal feelings, the feelings of the trans-identifying men (because that's who we're talking about here) are commonly regarded to trump everything.

The poor oppressed marginalised (six-foot, muscular, bepenised) flowers must have their lady feelz validated, and who cares about the women whose private spaces are being opened to any man who cares to enter? (While at the same time we're continuing to campaign for proper segragated facilities for girls in third world countries so they can attend school. Won't somebody think of the poor excluded trans-girls in Somalia and Ethiopia?)

quadraginta 16th May 2019 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfe (Post 12697491)
<snip>

The poor oppressed marginalised (six-foot, muscular, bepenised) flowers must have their lady feelz validated, and who cares about the women whose private spaces are being opened to any man who cares to enter? (While at the same time we're continuing to campaign for proper segragated facilities for girls in third world countries so they can attend school. Won't somebody think of the poor excluded trans-girls in Somalia and Ethiopia?)


Interesting choice of countries.

LGBT rights in both countries leave a lot to be desired. Any sort of gay sex is a crime, for starters. Leading to imprisonment if convicted.

Not particularly tolerant societies.

Somehow I doubt that "trans-girls" lead a particularly enviable existence in either one.

Ziggurat 16th May 2019 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12697355)
Your problem seems to be that doctors aren't doing their jobs properly? Do you have evidence that this is the case or just a hunch?

I have anecdotal evidence from people who have detransitioned and said that they should never have transitioned to begin with, that they had these other problems that should have been addressed but never were. I also have anecdotal evidence from parents of autistic kids who say that the professionals advocating for their kids' transitions have ignored their autism in consideration of their diagnosis, as well as from autism experts who have discussed the dynamics of the attraction towards transgenderism. It would take some work to dig up links again, if that's what you're asking for.

I don't have numbers on the prevalence of this, I suspect it would be hard to get a study for this purpose even funded.

d4m10n 16th May 2019 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfe (Post 12697491)
The poor oppressed marginalised (six-foot, muscular, bepenised) flowers must have their lady feelz validated...

brb updating my tinder profile ;)

Archie Gemmill Goal 16th May 2019 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12697842)
I have anecdotal evidence from people who have detransitioned and said that they should never have transitioned to begin with, that they had these other problems that should have been addressed but never were. I also have anecdotal evidence from parents of autistic kids who say that the professionals advocating for their kids' transitions have ignored their autism in consideration of their diagnosis, as well as from autism experts who have discussed the dynamics of the attraction towards transgenderism. It would take some work to dig up links again, if that's what you're asking for.

I don't have numbers on the prevalence of this, I suspect it would be hard to get a study for this purpose even funded.

I would imagine that the data doesn't exist beyond anecdote but I have no doubt that examples of bad practice and misdiagnosis can be found. I would imagine the same could be said for any mental health issue though. I don't think that's evidence of a massive problem here but rather that its not an exact science and doctors are human.

With regards the autism there are also anecdotes in the opposite direction with trans people saying they were told that they weren't really trans just autistic. So it does cut both ways.

https://disabilityarts.online/blog/e...oure-autistic/

ETA: One other thing I discovered today is that in the UK the diagnosis has to be done by one of the approved medics, so you can't just find a sympathetic doctor who will do what you want. This causes other issues of course because there are a limited number of these people to go round so there are substantial hurdles to be overcome, and costs associated with, getting the diagnosis.

Baylor 16th May 2019 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12697466)
Bit silly to pretend trans people are the only ones with emotional stakes here, when nearly everyone's comfort levels are on the line. Most of the arguments from emotion I've seen on this thread are from gender critical feminists, angry and/or unhappy about having their previously sex-segregated spaces used by people with penises. This isn't really surprising or unusual, most people react badly to having something they value taken away.

I could've sworn the English language has a word for this.

Ziggurat 16th May 2019 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12697910)
With regards the autism there are also anecdotes in the opposite direction with trans people saying they were told that they weren't really trans just autistic. So it does cut both ways.

https://disabilityarts.online/blog/e...oure-autistic/

It's funny, that link treats it like it's a problem, but that's actually encouraging to me. But the situation in the UK is a bit different than the US.

Quote:

ETA: One other thing I discovered today is that in the UK the diagnosis has to be done by one of the approved medics
I don't think that's the case here in the US.

Crawtator 16th May 2019 12:44 PM

And in the news headlines, we have another reason for why you should have to declare what biological sex you are on some sort of documentation...

https://apnews.com/b5e7bb73c6134d58a0df9e1cee2fb8ad

theprestige 16th May 2019 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawtator (Post 12697961)
And in the news headlines, we have another reason for why you should have to declare what biological sex you are on some sort of documentation...

https://apnews.com/b5e7bb73c6134d58a0df9e1cee2fb8ad

Haha oh wow:
When the man arrived at the hospital with severe abdominal pains, a nurse didn’t consider it an emergency, noting that he was obese and had stopped taking blood pressure medicines. In reality, he was pregnant — a transgender man in labor that was about to end in a stillbirth.
But then:
“He was rightly classified as a man” in the medical records and appears masculine, Stroumsa said. “But that classification threw us off from considering his actual medical needs.”
I'm pretty sure the result of "rightly classified" isn't actually "and therefore we did everything wrong".

ETA: This story suggests that neither patients nor doctors are even remotely competent to determine gender.

About nine months prior, this "rightly classified" "man" was operating as a fully-functional woman, biologically and socially. And yet somehow, in less than a year, she's transitioned so thoroughly that it doesn't even occur to her to mention that at some point in the not so distant past a dude was injecting sperm into her vagina with his penis, and that maybe this might have some medical relevance.

Archie Gemmill Goal 16th May 2019 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawtator (Post 12697961)
And in the news headlines, we have another reason for why you should have to declare what biological sex you are on some sort of documentation...

https://apnews.com/b5e7bb73c6134d58a0df9e1cee2fb8ad

They seemed to be aware he was transgender and claiming to be pregnant, no?

It appears they just didn't bother to treat him properly.

Crawtator 16th May 2019 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12697970)
They seemed to be aware he was transgender and claiming to be pregnant, no?

It appears they just didn't bother to treat him properly.

You don't see that the entire problem was that, although he did declare he was transgendered, they identified him on the records as male. And that this characterization led to, and I quote:

“But that classification threw us off from considering his actual medical needs.”

d4m10n 16th May 2019 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12697929)
I could've sworn the English language has a word for this.

I think there is probably a bit more to it than that.

If you lose your junk in a horrible belt-sander accident, you may well become eligible for a Darwin Award but you don't automatically become a woman.

The Atheist 16th May 2019 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12697965)
About nine months prior, this "rightly classified" "man" was operating as a fully-functional woman, biologically and socially.

I have to admit this having a dollar each way, as many trans are wont to do, tends to make a mockery out of the debate.

If it's not a choice, why are trans people picking and choosing as though their gender was a coat to be worn when you feel like it?

Archie Gemmill Goal 16th May 2019 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawtator (Post 12697981)
You don't see that the entire problem was that, although he did declare he was transgendered, they identified him on the records as male. And that this characterization led to, and I quote:

“But that classification threw us off from considering his actual medical needs.”

No, I don't see that at all.

Ziggurat 16th May 2019 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12698098)
No, I don't see that at all.

If he tells the admitting nurse that he's transgender, but the admitting nurse only writes down "male" on the paperwork, then other people making decisions about his healthcare might not know that he's actually female. That's a problem.

p0lka 16th May 2019 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfe (Post 12697491)
This. The debate is often framed as if the trans people's feelings are the only ones that matter. Women's feelings are of so little account that the debate swiftly moves on to matters of safety. Of course safety is important, but it's telling that, if the debate remained on the topic of personal feelings, the feelings of the trans-identifying men (because that's who we're talking about here) are commonly regarded to trump everything.

The poor oppressed marginalised (six-foot, muscular, bepenised) flowers must have their lady feelz validated, and who cares about the women whose private spaces are being opened to any man who cares to enter? (While at the same time we're continuing to campaign for proper segragated facilities for girls in third world countries so they can attend school. Won't somebody think of the poor excluded trans-girls in Somalia and Ethiopia?)

Do you have similar opinions about mens private bathroom space, regarding trans men?
It's a bit sexist to only focus on the women side of the equation, hence my question.

theprestige 16th May 2019 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0lka (Post 12698183)
Do you have similar opinions about mens private bathroom space, regarding trans men?
It's a bit sexist to only focus on the women side of the equation, hence my question.

As a dude, I'm totally okay with ladies being focused on lady problems. To me it kinda seems like a dick move to say "but think of the men!" to women who are trying to deal with the problems women face in today's society.

Far be it from me to insist that feminists aren't taking men enough into account.

Meadmaker 16th May 2019 05:16 PM

Rank the following statements in order of stupidity.

1. Gifted people can bend spoons using mental energy.
2. Men can give birth.

Rolfe 16th May 2019 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0lka (Post 12698183)
Do you have similar opinions about mens private bathroom space, regarding trans men?
It's a bit sexist to only focus on the women side of the equation, hence my question.


Nobody cares about the feelings of the trans-identifying women. Goodness I wonder why that might be. It's always the guys with the lady feelz who are front and centre when someone has to budge up and make room for them because validation you know.

theprestige 16th May 2019 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 12698217)
Rank the following statements in order of stupidity.

1. Gifted people can bend spoons using mental energy.
2. Men can give birth.

1. Rank the following statements in order of stupidity.
2. 1. Gifted people can bend spoons using mental energy.
3. 2. Men can give birth

d4m10n 16th May 2019 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12698216)
To me it kinda seems like a dick move to say "but think of the men!" to women who are trying to deal with the problems women face in today's society.

Which of the problems discussed thus far are uniquely women's problems? Aside from testosterone as a performance enhancing drug having an impact on women's sport, pretty much everything has an analog on both sides of the sex divide.

Silly Green Monkey 16th May 2019 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfe (Post 12698223)
Nobody cares about the feelings of the trans-identifying women. Goodness I wonder why that might be. It's always the guys with the lady feelz who are front and centre when someone has to budge up and make room for them because validation you know.

Because you notice them. Because you've created them. Meanwhile, a thousand people whose gender doesn't match their genitals quietly pass you by, unnoticed and glad of it.

Roboramma 16th May 2019 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12697414)
No, because getting a GRC is not the be all and end all. It doesn't 'do away with' transpeople getting medical help or talking to doctors or counsellors at all.

A GRC is a specific thing for a specific purpose.

Sure, perhaps I misunderstood Rolfe's point. The point seemed to be not that medical help wouldn't be available, but rather that it's not a requirement.

sadhatter 16th May 2019 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12698098)
No, I don't see that at all.

If I demand my blood type be put down as a when it is o, do you not think it may cause issues?

sadhatter 16th May 2019 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey (Post 12698368)
Because you notice them. Because you've created them. Meanwhile, a thousand people whose gender doesn't match their genitals quietly pass you by, unnoticed and glad of it.

I agree with your point but your presentation list the arguement. Replace trans with shoplifters and you have the same point.

Archie Gemmill Goal 17th May 2019 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12698135)
If he tells the admitting nurse that he's transgender, but the admitting nurse only writes down "male" on the paperwork, then other people making decisions about his healthcare might not know that he's actually female. That's a problem.

Possibly. So they should communicate effectively that the person is transgender and deal with it appropriately. It's not like they didn't know in this case.

That's different from having an official document saying 'was born a male/female' on record somewhere which was the proposed solution and I doubt would have helped in the slightest.

Archie Gemmill Goal 17th May 2019 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 12698217)
Rank the following statements in order of stupidity.

1. Gifted people can bend spoons using mental energy.
2. Men can give birth.

Think you have got them in the right order. We are already discussing a pregnant man in the topic that you appear to be struggling to follow.

By the way, good work on more reasoned debate here. This post was highly contentful, intellectually stimulating, thought-provoking and not in the least bit just a snidey bit of ****-throwing at transpeople.

Archie Gemmill Goal 17th May 2019 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12698377)
Sure, perhaps I misunderstood Rolfe's point. The point seemed to be not that medical help wouldn't be available, but rather that it's not a requirement.

No, her point was that it wouldn't happen. To be honest her point, as always on this topic, is simply to throw enough **** at transpeople that hopefully some of it will stick. Diagnosis is just her latest red herring because even if they get a diagnosis she still doesn't accept that they are anything other than perverts pretending to be women for their own kicks or otherwise mentally ill.

Archie Gemmill Goal 17th May 2019 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadhatter (Post 12698383)
If I demand my blood type be put down as a when it is o, do you not think it may cause issues?

I would expect a competent medical professional to be able to cope with a wrongly reported blood type. I don't even know what my blood type is, I wouldn't imagine for a second they would give me blood without checking.

Not that this analogy has anything to do with the case in question because he told them he was trans and he told them he had a positive pregnancy test.

If hospitals can't cope with trans people and it causes trans people real harm then, and work with me on this one because I know you are capable of reasoned thought.... THAT'S NOT THE TRANSPEOPLE WHO ARE TO BLAME, THAT'S THE HOSPITAL'S FAULT!!!

JihadJane 17th May 2019 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey (Post 12698368)
Because you notice them. Because you've created them. Meanwhile, a thousand people whose gender doesn't match their genitals quietly pass you by, unnoticed and glad of it.

What has gender got to do with genitals?

JihadJane 17th May 2019 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12697416)




Are you accusing Rolfe of pretending to be a woman? :confused:

No, I'm observing your dripping disdain for women.

Meadmaker 17th May 2019 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12698473)
Think you have got them in the right order. We are already discussing a pregnant man in the topic that you appear to be struggling to follow.

By the way, good work on more reasoned debate here. This post was highly contentful, intellectually stimulating, thought-provoking and not in the least bit just a snidey bit of ****-throwing at transpeople.

I decided to give up some of the pseudointellectual crap.

That person in the article is a woman.

Her baby is dead.


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