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-   -   Trans Women are not Women (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325369)

theprestige 19th December 2017 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davefoc (Post 12119535)
Well yes, but then there was the part about Caitlyn Jenner being subject to a rape charge because she lied to her wife when she impregnated her.

I think injecting sperm from a living penis into a living vagina and getting a viable fetus entitles one to the masculine pronouns for the purpose of describing the event.

Marcus 19th December 2017 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12119540)
I think injecting sperm from a living penis into a living vagina and getting a viable fetus entitles one to the masculine pronouns for the purpose of describing the event.

Perhaps (gasp!) one would describe a person who possessed one of these functional penises as a man, even when they weren't in the process of creating offspring.

Silly Green Monkey 22nd December 2017 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus (Post 12119555)
Perhaps (gasp!) one would describe a person who possessed one of these functional penises as a man, even when they weren't in the process of creating offspring.

If that person was three years old you would most certainly not.

Ron_Tomkins 23rd December 2017 12:50 AM

So trans fat isn't real fat either? :confused:

Hungry81 23rd December 2017 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins (Post 12123347)
So trans fat isn't real fat either? :confused:

No its whatever it was before it decided it was fat (thin?)

Also Transport isn't real port either, and I wouldn't drink it even if it was the last "port" available in the world.

cullennz 23rd December 2017 01:56 AM

I can see right though transparents

Yeah. Sure you have kids

Not

Information Analyst 23rd December 2017 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus (Post 12116840)
There you go. It seems some are very insistent on dictating which pronouns I am allowed to use. Not going to happen. Before Bruce Jenner had his surgery, he and I had different opinions on which pronouns were appropriate. I don't think he noticed. If Caitlin Jenner enjoys hearing the female pronouns used, I'm sure she hears more now. There is a difference between her and a dude in a dress.

That comes across as a particularly ******* way of looking at things, given that dressing and living as a woman (or vice versa) for some non-negligible amount of time is a prerequisite of getting the OK for surgery. Certainly a couple of my friends had to do that, and I wasn't so much of a wanker that I insisted on using their previous pronouns until they'd actually gone under the knife (even if I'd been inclined to).

Information Analyst 23rd December 2017 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12117604)
Both I guess; yoga pants. You can see me wearing another pair in my avatar. Those ones aren't Victoria's Secret, but they are a women's line. I think Hard Tail maybe.

I don't actually wear them on the street, but I do wear them when I'm doing yoga.

Presumably there was confusion because in many places "tights" means pantyhose.

Roboramma 23rd December 2017 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Information Analyst (Post 12123437)
Presumably there was confusion because in many places "tights" means pantyhose.

Ah, that makes sense.

William Parcher 25th February 2019 10:32 AM

Transgender runners finish one-two in Connecticut high school championships - reigniting debate over their participation in female track events

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daily Mail
Terry Miller of Bloomfield High School finished first in the 55-meter dash at the state open indoor track championships earlier this month.

Her friend Andraya Yearwood, who is a junior at Cromwell High School, finished second.

Miller and Yearwood, both 17, are currently transitioning to female and are taking hormone therapies.

Setting a girls' state indoor record, Miller finished the sprint in 6.95 seconds and Yearwood finished in 7.01 seconds.

The third-place competitor, who is not transgender, finished in 7.23 seconds.

Miller and Yearwood also topped the 100-meter state outdoor championships last year, and Miller won the 300 indoors this season...


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ol-champs.html

JoeMorgue 25th February 2019 10:40 AM

I almost just literally wish we had never invented pronouns.

The idea that "identity" and "descriptive terms applied to" are different things is... not helping.

theprestige 25th February 2019 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12613697)
Transgender runners finish one-two in Connecticut high school championships - reigniting debate over their participation in female track events




https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ol-champs.html

What is the point of an MTF transgender entering athletic competitions as a woman? It's obviously not to put their mind and body to the test against athletes of commensurate physical potential and willpower.

My guess is that it's a form of self-medication. It's about treating their psychological condition however they can, regardless of what social institutions they undermine, and regardless of how much punching down it requires. Being fair to other women athletes isn't important. What's important is that it counts as "being a woman" in their head in some way.

Ziggurat 25th February 2019 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12119530)
Men are better than women at some absolute tests of physical strength.

I know of no tests of physical strength where men are not (on average) better than women (assuming men are even capable of the test - this doesn't count). Did you have something in mind, or is that just a hedge in case you didn't think of something obscure?

theprestige 25th February 2019 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12613740)
I know of no tests of physical strength where men are not (on average) better than women (assuming men are even capable of the test - this doesn't count). Did you have something in mind, or is that just a hedge in case you didn't think of something obscure?

Just a hedge. Also, I've learned more since then, and am now much more confident that men are stronger on average across the board.

Lithrael 25th February 2019 11:45 AM

"not all breeds of genetic athletes were accepted by the GAS and new rules had to be created after the 2224 World Cup, when Scotland fielded a goalkeeper who was a human oblong of flesh, measuring eight feet high by sixteen across, thereby filling the entire goal. Somehow they still failed to qualify for the second round."

The Atheist 26th February 2019 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12613697)
Transgender runners finish one-two in Connecticut high school championships - reigniting debate over their participation in female track events

Just going by the sheer numbers of very young MtF trans people utterly destroying women who were born women across a number of sports right now, there's going to be an absolute tsunami of it at the Olympics.

We have a classic example here in mountain biking. A young woman who had been competing as a girl against girls and worked for years to get to the top was fairly confident about making the Olympic team.

Along comes a brand new "woman" competitor who cleans her up. That person was a former junior male champion in the same sport.

Six months of hormones does not make you a sheila in my book. Sport needs to deal with this crap fast

Manger Douse 26th February 2019 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithrael (Post 12613782)
"not all breeds of genetic athletes were accepted by the GAS and new rules had to be created after the 2224 World Cup, when Scotland fielded a goalkeeper who was a human oblong of flesh, measuring eight feet high by sixteen across, thereby filling the entire goal. Somehow they still failed to qualify for the second round."

Red Dwarf?

cullennz 26th February 2019 02:38 AM

Slight side track sorry, aside from the obvious why are they allowed to compete.

Who the hell agrees to transition a kid who isn't at the very least 18?

William Parcher 26th February 2019 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12614480)
Slight side track sorry, aside from the obvious why are they allowed to compete.

Who the hell agrees to transition a kid who isn't at the very least 18?

It could be parents taking the advice of a doctor.

William Parcher 26th February 2019 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12614411)
Sport needs to deal with this crap fast

Right now within sports we have the two categories of Men's and Women's.

Would a proper change be to place trans-people into one of those two categories based on their biological birth gender? Or, should one new category be created for trans-people where they only compete against each other? Or, should there be two new categories based on the biological birth gender of trans-people?

Ziggurat 26th February 2019 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12614645)
Right now within sports we have the two categories of Men's and Women's.

Would a proper change be to place trans-people into one of those two categories based on their biological birth gender? Or, should one new category be created for trans-people where they only compete against each other? Or, should there be two new categories based on the biological birth gender of trans-people?

Men's sports don't need to exclude women, because women don't have an advantage over men. So what you should have is an open category (which will be mostly or exclusively men by way of who's the best, but women and transgenders can compete as well), and a women's category which is only for biological females. As with the open category, no testosterone doping would be allowed in the women's category. Kind of like how older athletes can compete in open competitions, but younger athletes can't compete in the masters (ie, seniors) competitions. You could optionally allow biological females to dope with testosterone to compete in the open category.

If trans athletes want to create additional categories (and if their numbers can support it), then they can make as many additional categories as they want with whatever rules they want. But if the women's category doesn't exclude biologically male trans athletes, it will destroy those categories.

theprestige 26th February 2019 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12614645)
Right now within sports we have the two categories of Men's and Women's.



Would a proper change be to place trans-people into one of those two categories based on their biological birth gender? Or, should one new category be created for trans-people where they only compete against each other? Or, should there be two new categories based on the biological birth gender of trans-people?

In the context of treating their psychological condition, the proper change would probably be to keep the current two gender categories, and let them compete as their gender of choice.

SuburbanTurkey 26th February 2019 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12614645)
Right now within sports we have the two categories of Men's and Women's.

Would a proper change be to place trans-people into one of those two categories based on their biological birth gender? Or, should one new category be created for trans-people where they only compete against each other? Or, should there be two new categories based on the biological birth gender of trans-people?

I don't really see a great solution either way. Trans women, assuming they are receiving hormonal treatment, are likely going to disadvantaged in a men's league, but advantaged in a women's league.

Nobody really cares that much about transmen because they get no advantage by playing in men's leagues. I would suspect they would get an advantage if they were playing in a women's league while receiving testosterone supplements.

theprestige 26th February 2019 07:58 AM

Ziggurat's solution is pretty good, except that it explicitly refuses to treat MtF transsexuals as natural born women.

Ziggurat 26th February 2019 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12614672)
Ziggurat's solution is pretty good, except that because it explicitly refuses to treat MtF transsexuals as natural born women.

FTFY :p

(and yes, I know your point was about how some people would object to it on that basis, and yes they would, but **** them)

Ziggurat 26th February 2019 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 12614664)
I don't really see a great solution either way. Trans women, assuming they are receiving hormonal treatment, are likely going to disadvantaged in a men's league, but advantaged in a women's league.

That's correct. And it's unfortunate for them, but they shouldn't get to ruin the women's category to remedy that problem.

Quote:

Nobody really cares that much about transmen because they get no advantage by playing in men's leagues. I would suspect they would get an advantage if they were playing in a women's league while receiving testosterone supplements.
Women taking testosterone supplements absolutely do have an advantage against other women. But sometimes they're still prohibited from competing against other males:
https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/us/te...old/index.html
Unlike the sprinters in Connecticut, this trans wrestler wanted to compete against the boys. The rules should be changed to allow that. The categories I described above would have.

JoeMorgue 26th February 2019 08:18 AM

At this point we almost just have invoke some sort of broad categories based on nothing but raw performance to make everybody (ostensibly) happy.

SuburbanTurkey 26th February 2019 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12614689)
That's correct. And it's unfortunate for them, but they shouldn't get to ruin the women's category to remedy that problem.

An interesting parallel is athletes with prosthetic limbs that advantage them over able bodied athletes. The debate over Oscar Pistorius being allowed to compete with his prosthetic legs is similar. He was banned from competing because his artificial limbs were inherently superior to a human leg. The intention was not to screw over the disabled, but rather preserve some level of fairness among the competitors.

The problem that clouds the whole trans athlete debates is that there is still tremendous amounts of general animus against trans people, so it is often hard to know if someone is arguing in good faith to preserve fair competition, or is just interested in screwing over people they don't like.

Ziggurat 26th February 2019 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12614696)
At this point we almost just have invoke some sort of broad categories based on nothing but raw performance to make everybody (ostensibly) happy.

Or we can simply recognize that we won't make everybody happy no matter what we do, and accept a sensible solution even if it pisses off some small group.

But that's crazy talk.

sadhatter 26th February 2019 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12614662)
In the context of treating their psychological condition, the proper change would probably be to keep the current two gender categories, and let them compete as their gender of choice.

In the context of choosing 1% of the population to cater to.

sadhatter 26th February 2019 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 12614664)
I don't really see a great solution either way. Trans women, assuming they are receiving hormonal treatment, are likely going to disadvantaged in a men's league, but advantaged in a women's league.

Nobody really cares that much about transmen because they get no advantage by playing in men's leagues. I would suspect they would get an advantage if they were playing in a women's league while receiving testosterone supplements.

Maybe competitive sport isn't really an area trans people can compete fairly against anyone other than themselves. And there is nothing wrong with that. No one says the concept of the paralympics is evil.

JoeMorgue 26th February 2019 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12614699)
Or we can simply recognize that we won't make everybody happy no matter what we do, and accept a sensible solution even if it pisses off some small group.

But that's crazy talk.

Getting everyone to understand that you can't make everyone happy.

Getting anyone to understand why "they" are the ones who aren't happy is not.

If "Well you can't make everybody happy" was a standard we could invoke this entire discussion disappears.

SuburbanTurkey 26th February 2019 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadhatter (Post 12614703)
Maybe competitive sport isn't really an area trans people can compete fairly against anyone other than themselves. And there is nothing wrong with that. No one says the concept of the paralympics is evil.

The problem is that trans people are a very small minority of the population, so a trans league is not really feasible on anything but the largest scales.

What do you do with a trans women high school student that wants to engage in high school sports?

1) put them into the women's league and frustrate the other women athletes that may be inherently disadvantaged

2) put them in men's league were the trans student is disadvantaged and may be deeply ashamed of being labeled as the opposite sex

3) forbid them from competing

no solution is perfect, but I'm inclined that 2 is likely the most fair option, though not a very good one.

Ziggurat 26th February 2019 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 12614697)
An interesting parallel is athletes with prosthetic limbs that advantage them over able bodied athletes. The debate over Oscar Pistorius being allowed to compete with his prosthetic legs is similar. He was banned from competing because his artificial limbs were inherently superior to a human leg. The intention was not to screw over the disabled, but rather preserve some level of fairness among the competitors.

Whatever advantage his prosthetic provides, it's marginal. And we know that because amputees aren't dominating the sport. So it doesn't really matter much either way. M to F transgenders are dominating women's sports when they are allowed to compete, because the biological difference between male and female provides them with a huge advantage. This makes a major difference.

JoeMorgue 26th February 2019 08:31 AM

There's also the small problem that the Paralympics is an entirely different dynamic.

"Just put them in a 3rd category" is not going to work with people who defining themselves as belong to one of the two established categories is... well sort of the point.

SuburbanTurkey 26th February 2019 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12614710)
Whatever advantage his prosthetic provides, it's marginal. And we know that because amputees aren't dominating the sport. So it doesn't really matter much either way. M to F transgenders are dominating women's sports when they are allowed to compete. This makes a major difference.

Even in the Paralympics world, it's not settled. Squabbling over what is an allowed prosthetic occurs, and one could conceivably see serious athletes engaging in a arms race of sorts. There is no "standard" equipment, so whoever has the best engineered leg is going to have an advantage in a competition were a winning margin is often narrow. It's not impossible that an artificial leg will soon be invented that is superior to a human leg, if that is not already the case.

Well, individual trans athletes may be dominating here and there, but the relatively small numbers of trans people is going to limit how much this is going to occur. It's not like we are going to start seeing situations where an entire varsity team for a high school is all trans women. I am sympathetic to those isolated cases where cis-women feel the tables are tilted against them and all their hard work isn't being properly rewarded.

Though one could conceive of a college or professional team deliberately recruiting an all trans team from across the country if they felt it could provide a competitive advantage and there were enough trans athlete of high ability to recruit.

JoeMorgue 26th February 2019 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 12614714)
It's not impossible that an artificial leg will soon be invented that is superior to a human leg, if that is not already the case.

And when top tier runners start chopping their legs off and "transitioning" to cloned bio-mechanical titanium velociraptor legs or whatever we can worry about it.

The Paralympics exist because we all get to accept that "disabled" means what it does. We cushion it in a lot of metaphor and euphemism but all get that it means "less abled."

When a person's self identity is defined as belonging to a certain group creating a third group for them is not going to be a viable option.

To (many) transgender people being told to go off and form a third group to keep everything "fair" is going to be like telling a slow runner that he'd be better off competing in the wheelchair division.

theprestige 26th February 2019 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12614680)
FTFY : p

Heh. As a member of the IT crowd, I always appreciate a good "feature vs bug".

Quote:

(and yes, I know your point was about how some people would object to it on that basis, and yes they would, but **** them)
(In all seriousness, though, I think this is the real problem. As best I understand it, gender dysphoria is essentially a pathological desire to fit into a different social construct than the one society has chosen for you. It goes beyond typical rebelliousness, beyond tomboyishness and effeminacy. It's a deep-seated need to be recognized as whatever it is that society recognizes as a woman (for example). Transgenderism actually buys into and reinforces the social construct of binary gender.

And sport is one of those places where society is most explicit and strict about recognizing and normalizing binary gender. Only women can take to the court in a WNBA game. Everyone on the court in a WNBA game is a woman. What greater social validation can you have, for your choice to be a woman, than to be entitled to play in the WNBA?

Any solution that doesn't grant that entitlement to MtF transsexuals, will not serve. The goal isn't a fair competition, but a socially just competition. I wouldn't say "**** them". But I would say, "understand them, reason with them, and figure out what the **** society is going to do about them".)

SuburbanTurkey 26th February 2019 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12614724)

To (many) transgender people being told to go off and form a third group to keep everything "fair" is going to be like telling a slow runner that he'd be better off competing in the wheelchair division.

I think there is an impasse. Cis-women are going to be right to say that trans-women have an unfair advantage. Trans-women are going to right to say that labeling them male or "other" athletes is an assault on their dignity.

I don't really see any middle ground on this one. One group is going to get an unfavorable decision.

I think protecting the competitiveness of cis-women leagues is the right move here. The whole point of gender segregated leagues is that women will have a venue in which they have a fair chance of success.

If trans-women have an intrinsic advantage due to the circumstances of their gender at birth, then allowing them to compete in women's leagues is a betrayal of that founding motive.

angrysoba 26th February 2019 08:56 AM

I think the Open Class has merit. Perhaps the big challenge to having one is, however, testosterone levels in trans-men.

Does anyone know how levels of testosterone in gender reassignment stacks up against cis-men or even whether the simple addition of testosterone would rule them ineligible for most sporting competitions (except untested ones)?

Maybe doping is a whole other can of worms that come into this. In some respects we already have sports that turn a blind eye to doping such as strongman competitions and one powerlifting federation. I assume that they just want to see how strong their competitors can possibly be with no holds barred.

So, aside from the problems of doping, have an Open Class in which anyone can compete, and then have a women's class that can only be for those who have never competed as a male.


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