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-   -   2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker Part III (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341226)

TragicMonkey 28th December 2019 12:45 AM

Mod Info This is a continuation from Part II. The split point is, as always, arbitrary and participants are free to quote from the previous thread(s).
Posted By:Agatha






Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbles (Post 12936455)
Let's stop, right here.

I've never really understood how she, any more than any other US politician, is this.

I don't recall saying she's more so than other politicians. She's certainly enough so to earn her my enmity. She was always too close to the big banks and finance industry for my liking (a failing Biden also shares, if indeed he doesn't surpass her there--he was once known as "the senator from MBNC") and her rather late and cynical about-face on the topic of gay rights didn't win her much love. She's too much of a party machine creature and always has been. I don't think I've ever heard her espouse a position that didn't seem calculated for its political advantage, as opposed to deriving from underlying principle. I did vote for her, given the alternative was even worse, and I think she would have made a decent president, but I wouldn't consider her a decent person and wouldn't trust her further than I could throw her stash of funnymoney.

TragicMonkey 28th December 2019 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SezMe (Post 12936462)
Agreed. She may not give you the political warm and fuzzies but that in no way makes her "loathsome and dreadful". She handled two very public humiliations, the loss to Obama and Bill's hummer, with class. She was an effective Senator and Secretary of State.

Lighten up, man.

I wouldn't consider losing to Obama a humiliation. Win a few, lose a few, that's part of the career of a politician.

As for her husband's scandal(s), they don't really reflect either positively or negatively on Hillary. Whatever credit she earned for loyally sticking by her man was negated by the points she lost for foolishly sticking by her man. She probably shouldn't have waded into the "believe her" business without considering her own past statements about her husband's accusers and how that reflected upon her...but like I said above, I don't think she was following an actual principle in there, she was just playing a strategy.

TragicMonkey 28th December 2019 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12936480)
If you repeat a lie often enough... :mad:

She didn't stay home baking cookies when her husband was POTUS.

Put it back in the deck. There are a lot of reasons to dislike Hillary Clinton that have nothing to do with her sex. And here's a hint: someone who dislikes Hillary out of mere sexism is hardly going to support Warren over all the other candidates. Warren, the one with actual principles behind her policy suggestions, Warren who pursues those principles even when they're not popular with the focus groups.

Childlike Empress 28th December 2019 03:24 AM

Christmas with Tulsi and her hubby:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Venom 28th December 2019 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbles (Post 12936483)
"Obama-Trumpers" simply are not thinking. "I like Obama, but I'm also a birther". Go away, you are clearly an idiot to support both the first black president, and also violent white supremacism. I hope no campaign I like never seeks the support of any such idiot.

(If you changed over the 8 ensuing years, okay, but let's not even pretend that you can reasonably be both pro- and-anti white supremacist at the same time.)

I don't think they are necessarily "pro white supremacist" but they let it slide, possibly partly because Trump is white.

I need a good job, financial security for my family, I don't care about all that Washington drama. Media blowing it out of proportion, etc.

Of course if Obama acted like Trump I'm not so sure they'd be saying that.

Childlike Empress 28th December 2019 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress (Post 12936703)
Christmas with Tulsi and her hubby:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


I just have to say some words on this. They say that a nation gets the leaders they deserve, which isn't very flattering to the US at the moment. But it prevented Killary. Now Tulsi is an option, and frankly even if you aren't a Christian, and Tulsi isn't, she's Hindu, you should feel the integrity of that little performance.

I actually have been born into a Catholic family with my parents far too religious for my taste as a young thinker. I left the church at age 18 many years ago, they left in their 70s recently. But the message of love and peace stays sound, and this women Tulsi Gabbard is an incredible window into such a world.

I called on this forum for recent months for Bernie Sanders to give back the favour (Tulsi resigned from her pretty important DNC position over how the Killary machine conspired against him in 2016) and resign endorsing her. A prominent press conference with both of them present would open the path to beating Trump which she would do with her right hand tied.

But that would mean losing The Empire which all the current fuss is about. Trump is destroying it while claiming to make "America'" great again. And a lot of pseudo-skeptics here don't want that to happen, regardless of the mayhem the "full-spectrum dominance" doctrine has caused in the world already.

If Bernie doesn't endorse Tulsi at a soon occasion, any of the clowns the "Democratic Party" will chose as their presidential candidate (including Bernie himself) will rightfully be unable to prevent a second Trump term.

Venom 28th December 2019 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress (Post 12936766)
I just have to say some words on this. They say that a nation gets the leaders they deserve, which isn't very flattering to the US at the moment. But it prevented Killary. Now Tulsi is an option, and frankly even if you aren't a Christian, and Tulsi isn't, she's Hindu, you should feel the integrity of that little performance.

I actually have been born into a Catholic family with my parents far too religious for my taste as a young thinker. I left the church at age 18 many years ago, they left in their 70s recently. But the message of love and peace stays sound, and this women Tulsi Gabbard is an incredible window into such a world.

I called on this forum for recent months for Bernie Sanders to give back the favour (Tulsi resigned from her pretty important DNC position over how the Killary machine conspired against him in 2016) and resign endorsing her. A prominent press conference with both of them present would open the path to beating Trump which she would do with her right hand tied.

But that would mean losing The Empire which all the current fuss is about. Trump is destroying it while claiming to make "America'" great again. And a lot of pseudo-skeptics here don't want that to happen, regardless of the mayhem the "full-spectrum dominance" doctrine has caused in the world already.

If Bernie doesn't endorse Tulsi at a soon occasion, any of the clowns the "Democratic Party" will chose as their presidential candidate (including Bernie himself) will rightfully be unable to prevent a second Trump term.

Firstly, stop saying "Killary". It makes you look silly.

Second, if Gabbard was smart she'd endorse Bernie Sanders, who is a better all-around candidate and literally the second most popular Democrat in the race, not the other way around.

Childlike Empress 28th December 2019 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 12936778)
Firstly, stop saying "Killary". It makes you look silly.


Nope. You can get help here.

Venom 28th December 2019 02:41 PM


TragicMonkey 28th December 2019 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 12936818)

That's pretty good!

Aridas 28th December 2019 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress (Post 12936766)
If Bernie doesn't endorse Tulsi at a soon occasion, any of the clowns the "Democratic Party" will chose as their presidential candidate (including Bernie himself) will rightfully be unable to prevent a second Trump term.

...At last check, Tulsi is now the most disliked candidate among the Democrats. Added to that, she doesn't even remotely have a ground presence like Warren, Bernie, or Buttigieg. She's currently being called upon to resign because she's simply not even been showing up to work practically at all since she announced that she wasn't going for re-election. She's spent many years bashing Democrats on Fox.

No, Tulsi has effectively a 0% chance of beating Trump, given how much she's worked to alienate Democrats.

theprestige 28th December 2019 03:04 PM

I thought the idea was that Democrats would happily vote for anyone other than Trump.

TragicMonkey 28th December 2019 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12936838)
I thought the idea was that Democrats would happily vote for anyone other than Trump.

Nonsense. Democrats are incapable of happiness. They may vote for the lesser evil but they'll complain about it the whole time.

varwoche 28th December 2019 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12936838)
I thought the idea was that Democrats would happily vote for anyone other than Trump.

You must have a low opinion of the intelligence of your readership to foist such abject nonsense. As if posters are unable to distinguish between nomination and general election.

Despite that I have exceedingly negative views on Gabbard, I'd vote for her without hesitation versus Trump... in the alternate universe where this is conceivable.

Aridas 28th December 2019 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12936838)
I thought the idea was that Democrats would happily vote for anyone other than Trump.

Many will. Appeals to fear and loyalty are far, far more effective on "conservatives," though, and the GOP's been working hard for quite a long while to trick them into supporting the GOP. Added to that, the GOP's rather effectively worked to disseminate lies and quarter-truths, frequently aided by the MSM, and get a lot of people to just... tune out. There are likely more than a few, though, that see that Trump, bad as he is, is just a symptom of underlying problems and that if a Democratic candidate is selected who looks like they have little interest in addressing those problems, we'll just be setting ourselves up for even worse in the near future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 12936856)
You must have a low opinion of the intelligence of your readership to foist such abject nonsense. As if posters are unable to distinguish between nomination and general election.

Despite that I have exceedingly negative views on Gabbard, I'd vote for her without hesitation versus Trump... in the alternate universe where this is conceivable.

Mmm. As I've noted previously, *I* would hesitate to vote for Tulsi over Trump. I would likely do it in the end, but grudgingly and with less enthusiasm than I would for Biden, which is saying something important. If *I* would only do it grudgingly, even with Trump as a motivator, I quite expect that things would go very, very badly for her.

Childlike Empress 28th December 2019 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 12936818)


Yeah, haha. Have you read her statement on the decision? That's how an adult acts. Unfortunately she's the only one in the room.

Skeptic Ginger 28th December 2019 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12936702)
Put it back in the deck. There are a lot of reasons to dislike Hillary Clinton that have nothing to do with her sex. And here's a hint: someone who dislikes Hillary out of mere sexism is hardly going to support Warren over all the other candidates. Warren, the one with actual principles behind her policy suggestions, Warren who pursues those principles even when they're not popular with the focus groups.

And the vast majority of those reasons are lies or based on lies.

I find it hard to believe her supporting her husband is the only thing that you base your dislike on.

This is off topic, time to move on.

angrysoba 28th December 2019 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12936848)
Nonsense. Democrats are incapable of happiness. They may vote for the lesser evil but they'll complain about it the whole time.

See, whatever most people say about Trump, he blatantly does have a hardcore of extremely enthusiastic supporters. The only person who has the equivalent on the Dems side is Sanders.

angrysoba 28th December 2019 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12936926)
And the vast majority of those reasons are lies or based on lies.

I find it hard to believe her supporting her husband is the only thing that you base your dislike on.

This is off topic, time to move on.

It isn’t. He said what credit she got for sticking with Bill is also negated by her sticking with Bill. The reasons he dislikes Hillary are listed already.

Aridas 28th December 2019 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress (Post 12936914)
Yeah, haha. Have you read her statement on the decision? That's how an adult acts. Unfortunately she's the only one in the room.

It's nice sounding, if one only looks at the surface and doesn't even try to think about what she's saying. Dig any deeper and it quickly starts to fall apart. "Yes, Trump's guilty, but he shouldn't be held accountable if only Democrats are calling to hold him accountable for his actions?" is an exercise in cowardice and a victory for the extreme and unprincipled partisanship that the GOP's been practicing, for example. It falls apart even more when one takes into account that most of the country thinks that Trump should be impeached and removed.

That's not how a good adult acts.

Cabbage 28th December 2019 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12934801)
Hating Trump is more important than understanding the people you're actually talking to.


.........


Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12936838)
I thought the idea was that Democrats would happily vote for anyone other than Trump.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 12

Venom 28th December 2019 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress (Post 12936914)
Yeah, haha. Have you read her statement on the decision? That's how an adult acts. Unfortunately she's the only one in the room.

I have read her statement, yes.

It's understandable on its face, but Gabbard has shown a pattern of contrarianism that just makes her look like a spoiled brat. The vast majority of the time before that particular impeachment vote, she voted "not present".

And this is the candidate you are saying is the strongest one for 2020, and she doesn't even have 1% support. She's adopted 2014 Obama's failed "bipartisan" philosophy.

Aridas 28th December 2019 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 12937004)
And this is the candidate you are saying is the strongest one for 2020, and she doesn't even have 1% support. She's adopted 2014 Obama's failed "bipartisan" philosophy.

To be clear, the two of those things are not directly related. Biden and Buttigieg, for example, are both also pushing the bipartisanship for the sake of bipartisanship line and are doing a lot better. Both of them also have a lot more in their favor than Gabbard.

Venom 28th December 2019 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aridas (Post 12937033)
To be clear, the two of those things are not directly related. Biden and Buttigieg, for example, are both also pushing the bipartisanship for the sake of bipartisanship line and are doing a lot better. Both of them also have a lot more in their favor than Gabbard.

Sure.

I just like to stick that to Gabbard drones who like to pretend she's so uniquely principled.

BobTheCoward 28th December 2019 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress (Post 12936914)
Yeah, haha. Have you read her statement on the decision? That's how an adult acts. Unfortunately she's the only one in the room.

So if the defending side operates extremely partisan, she wouldn't ever vote Yes? That seems flawed.

Skeptic Ginger 28th December 2019 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 12936947)
It isn’t. He said what credit she got for sticking with Bill is also negated by her sticking with Bill. The reasons he dislikes Hillary are listed already.

Like I said, based on lies upon lies.

TragicMonkey 28th December 2019 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12937086)
Like I said, based on lies upon lies.

I thought you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12936926)
This is off topic, time to move on.


Skeptic Ginger 29th December 2019 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12937094)
I thought you said:

Yeah, but you didn't. :p

I get pissed off when people bash Clinton because I know it's mostly crap. Sorry.

Venom 29th December 2019 08:37 PM

The Resistance to Donald Trump must be stopped!

Tulsi Gabbard: Impeaching Trump can cause ‘lasting damage’ to America

Aridas 29th December 2019 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 12937792)

To that headline, my response is simple.

Not impeaching and removing Trump is likely to cause even greater lasting damage to America.

Of course, on that line, it's well worth noting that plenty of damage has already been done, and that has a fair bit to do with the corrupting of the GOP.

The_Animus 30th December 2019 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress (Post 12936914)
Yeah, haha. Have you read her statement on the decision? That's how an adult acts. Unfortunately she's the only one in the room.

If that's how you think adults act you need to find better adult role models. She admits she thinks he's guilty but then won't do anything about it because she says she believes asinine, lying Republican talking points.

And she is incapable of doing her current job, let alone POTUS

Quote:

Tulsi Gabbard missed 85% of House votes this fall.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tulsi-g...-abercrombie/#

I liked some of what she said on JRE about how the US shouldn't constantly be fighting wars but she has since lost any credibility in my view.

Childlike Empress 30th December 2019 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Animus (Post 12938256)
If that's how you think adults act you need to find better adult role models. She admits she thinks he's guilty but then won't do anything about it because she says she believes asinine, lying Republican talking points.


Won't do anything? Really? Why don't you know about what she does? Do you know that she inserted a resolution on December 18th, 2019, that calls to censure Trump over

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabbard House Resolution
[...]

Whereas President Trump has undermined America’s national security and the safety of our people with a growing list of unconstitutional and reckless actions, including but not limited to:

(1) Violating the War Powers Resolution and Article I of the Constitution by carrying out acts of war without Congressional approval.

(2) Illegally and unconstitutionally using U.S. military forces to occupy and pillage oilfield reserves of Syria, a sovereign nation.

(3) Recklessly enabling President Erdogan of Turkey to invade and occupy Northern Syria and conduct ethnic cleansing of Syrian Kurds.

(4) Continued support for Saudi Arabia’s genocidal war in Yemen that has caused death, suffering, and starvation.

(5) Recklessly abandoning nuclear agreements and treaties, like the INF treaty with Russia and the Iran nuclear agreement, thereby increasing the risk of nuclear war, nuclear proliferation, and war with Iran.

[...]


Isn't it true that the crowd here intensively looks the other way when topics like this are brought up while they pretend some moral high ground? Isn't it true that freaks like that should be ignored by adult commentators?

The_Animus 30th December 2019 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress (Post 12938432)
Won't do anything? Really? Why don't you know about what she does? Do you know that she inserted a resolution on December 18th, 2019, that calls to censure Trump over




Isn't it true that the crowd here intensively looks the other way when topics like this are brought up while they pretend some moral high ground? Isn't it true that freaks like that should be ignored by adult commentators?

Oh no, not a censure! She thinks he is guilty but won't do her constitutional duty to impeach him because to her all we really need is a formal statement that Trump was a naughty boy and... nothing else.

It's no different than politicians who will periodically say they're "disturbed" by Trump's actions or policies and then go right back to supporting him.

My favorite part

Quote:

(3) call on President Donald J. Trump to refrain from any conduct that invites foreign interference in United States elections or undermines United States Government investigations into foreign interference;

(4) call on President Donald J. Trump and the executive branch of government to respect the constitutionally defined separation of powers;

(5) strongly urges President Donald J. Trump to uphold his oath of office as established by the Constitution of the United States and fulfill his constitutional responsibilities to the American people; and

(6) call on President Donald J. Trump to acknowledge and admit wrongdoing as outlined in this Resolution and apologize to the American people.
We just have to call him a naughty boy and ask that he stop acting the way he always has and now we can all move along. Nothing to see here!

Childlike Empress 30th December 2019 06:56 PM

:wackywacko:

BrooklynBaby 30th December 2019 09:45 PM

Biden said we're all dead if we don't get rid of fossil fuels and he's ready to put energy company execs in prison. LOL -- and this is the Dems' leading candidate. I wonder if he'll lock up his son first, for his crime of having been on the board of an energy company. In any case, I'm sure AOC is a lock to be his Secretary of Energy if he somehow gets elected.

Aridas 31st December 2019 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby (Post 12938681)
Biden said we're all dead if we don't get rid of fossil fuels and he's ready to put energy company execs in prison.

Given the level of corruption and law-breaking that a few too many of said energy executives have rather certainly engaged in (Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, especially), it may well be well past time to do so, honestly. That's before it comes to too many of them making highly unethical decisions that seriously harm large numbers of people for the benefit of a very few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby (Post 12938681)
LOL -- and this is the Dems' leading candidate. I wonder if he'll lock up his son first, for his crime of having been on the board of an energy company. In any case, I'm sure AOC is a lock to be his Secretary of Energy if he somehow gets elected.

:rolleyes:

SezMe 31st December 2019 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress (Post 12938605)
:wackywacko:

:wackywacko: right back atcha.

The_Animus is absolutely correct. Calling on Trump to behave in a congressional resolution 1) won't get squat support and 2) even if it did, it would have zero effect on Trump.

Childlike Empress 31st December 2019 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SezMe (Post 12938777)
:wackywacko: right back atcha.

The_Animus is absolutely correct. Calling on Trump to behave in a congressional resolution 1) won't get squat support and 2) even if it did, it would have zero effect on Trump.

What's wrong with illegal wars, stealing oil from other countries, encouraging a mad sultan to invade Rojava, helping dark-age penguins to genocide some brown people and cancelling international agreements?

I want back someone who can give a nice face to that like Obama! And that phone call was wrong!


FTFY

SuburbanTurkey 31st December 2019 05:18 AM

I'm really curious what the hell it is Gabbard is playing at here. She isn't going to win the primary and she's burning every bridge with Democrats. She isn't running for re-election in her home state. Not sure what she gets for ingratiating herself to conservatives who don't really want anything to do with her.

Maybe it's a gambit to be a token "liberal" commentator on Fox News?

The_Animus 31st December 2019 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress (Post 12938821)
FTFY

That has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

But if your argument is terrible just switch the topic to "Obama bad!"

I'm sure no one will notice


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