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-   -   The post-Trump fascist creep catch-all thread (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=350859)

Stacyhs 5th June 2021 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13500176)
It's not the same at all given the bolded.

Just because some idiot mentioned it makes your "to be fair" bull ****, don't you think?

I was thinking the same thing!

PhantomWolf 6th June 2021 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13500176)
It's not the same at all given the bolded.

Just because some idiot mentioned it makes your "to be fair" bull ****, don't you think?

It was prevalent enough that members of this board bought into it.

And yes, sometimes it is a good idea to admit that you have crackpots on your side, even if that also means that you need to point out that the crackpots on your side aren't the ones in control. Totally ignoring it leads to charges of hypocrisy.

ETA: In both cases, a bunch of fringe crazies have come up with the same loopy idea. The real difference between the two situations is that the Republicans have divorced themselves so far from reality that they are willing to entertain the crazy whereas the Democrats just pat them on the head and say "There there, have some dried frog pills, put on your tin foil hat and go sit in the corner till you feel better."

Stacyhs 6th June 2021 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 13500904)
It was prevalent enough that members of this board bought into it.

And yes, sometimes it is a good idea to admit that you have crackpots on your side, even if that also means that you need to point out that the crackpots on your side aren't the ones in control. Totally ignoring it leads to charges of hypocrisy.

ETA: In both cases, a bunch of fringe crazies have come up with the same loopy idea. The real difference between the two situations is that the Republicans have divorced themselves so far from reality that they are willing to entertain the crazy whereas the Democrats just pat them on the head and say "There there, have some dried frog pills, put on your tin foil hat and go sit in the corner till you feel better."


:thumbsup:

CORed 6th June 2021 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13485189)
As far as the Jack-Meehoff name, has anyone verified how many other fake names are on that letter?

Check for Mike Hunt, Seymour Butz and I. P. Freely.

Skeptic Ginger 6th June 2021 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 13500904)
It was prevalent enough that members of this board bought into it.

And yes, sometimes it is a good idea to admit that you have crackpots on your side, even if that also means that you need to point out that the crackpots on your side aren't the ones in control. Totally ignoring it leads to charges of hypocrisy.

ETA: In both cases, a bunch of fringe crazies have come up with the same loopy idea. The real difference between the two situations is that the Republicans have divorced themselves so far from reality that they are willing to entertain the crazy whereas the Democrats just pat them on the head and say "There there, have some dried frog pills, put on your tin foil hat and go sit in the corner till you feel better."

IOW not the same at all.

PhantomWolf 6th June 2021 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13500922)
IOW not the same at all.

The two ideas are indeed the same, get the failed presidential candidate into the presidential position by electing them to the house, making them Speaker, then removing the President and VP so the Speaker becomes the new President.

What exactly do you think is different between the current idea and the one that Hillary's fringe supporters had in 2016?

Skeptic Ginger 7th June 2021 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 13500932)
The two ideas are indeed the same, get the failed presidential candidate into the presidential position by electing them to the house, making them Speaker, then removing the President and VP so the Speaker becomes the new President.

What exactly do you think is different between the current idea and the one that Hillary's fringe supporters had in 2016?

It's a false equivalence to compare the GOP where the party and many of the legislators are discussing Trump running for Congress and he is considering the idea ...

... with nutty ideas some fringe people have discussed that no Democratic Party leaders and no Democratic legislators and no Democrats in any position of leadership have seriously considered.

PhantomWolf 7th June 2021 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13500945)
It's a false equivalence to compare the GOP where the party and many of the legislators are discussing Trump running for Congress and he is considering the idea ...

... with nutty ideas some fringe people have discussed that no Democratic Party leaders and no Democratic legislators and no Democrats in any position of leadership have seriously considered.

And no one has done that, in fact, you are just repeating the very thing I said in my first post, the one you jumped all over.

I have said and will continue to say, the idea is the same one... because it is.

My first post on the subject notes that the difference was that the GOP leadership was taking the crazy seriously while the Democrat leadership didn't. But that reception doesn't change the fact that the crazies in the Republicans are spouting the same idea as crazy fringe Democrats did in 2016. It also doesn't make the idea any more or any less crazy.

Skeptic Ginger 7th June 2021 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 13500975)
And no one has done that, in fact, you are just repeating the very thing I said in my first post, the one you jumped all over.

I have said and will continue to say, the idea is the same one... because it is.

My first post on the subject notes that the difference was that the GOP leadership was taking the crazy seriously while the Democrat leadership didn't. But that reception doesn't change the fact that the crazies in the Republicans are spouting the same idea as crazy fringe Democrats did in 2016. It also doesn't make the idea any more or any less crazy.

So you deny you made a false equivalence. Fine. It was as clear as mud from your post given how you worded it.

I'm glad to see you recognize your mistake and are now clearing that up.

PhantomWolf 7th June 2021 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13501348)
So you deny you made a false equivalence. Fine. It was as clear as mud from your post given how you worded it.

I'm glad to see you recognize your mistake and are now clearing that up.

Feel free to quote me saying that the GOP and the Democrats are the exactly same. Go on I double-dog dare you.

I know you have trouble admitting you read it wrong and have entrenched your claims, but perhaps going back and reading what was actually said instead of what you desperately want to have been said, you might just discover that it was you that made the miskate. I know, shocking right.....

Skeptic Ginger 7th June 2021 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 13501810)
Feel free to quote me saying that the GOP and the Democrats are the exactly same. Go on I double-dog dare you.

I know you have trouble admitting you read it wrong and have entrenched your claims, but perhaps going back and reading what was actually said instead of what you desperately want to have been said, you might just discover that it was you that made the miskate. I know, shocking right.....

I quoted you exactly when this exchange started:
Quote:

Originally Posted by PW
The two ideas are indeed the same, get the failed presidential candidate into the presidential position by electing them to the house, making them Speaker, then removing the President and VP so the Speaker becomes the new President.

What exactly do you think is different between the current idea and the one that Hillary's fringe supporters had in 2016?


PhantomWolf 7th June 2021 05:29 PM

Since when are ideas political parties?

And a second question. Are the ideas the same or not, if not, why not, and no the reception of an idea by different parties does not make the idea different.

And that wasn't the post where this exchange started. You really are having trouble here.

Skeptic Ginger 7th June 2021 06:48 PM

:deadhorse

PhantomWolf 7th June 2021 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13501900)
:deadhorse

I'll take that as an admission that you know that you can't answer those questions without admitting you were wrong. Though I'd also point out that failure to admit when you got something wrong isn't the best position for a person who claims to be a skeptic.

You know, instead of digging the hole so deep, you'd have been far better off just fessing up and saying, "Opps, yeah I misread your post, my bad" several posts back.

Skeptic Ginger 7th June 2021 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 13501933)
I'll take that as an admission that you know that you can't answer those questions without admitting you were wrong. Though I'd also point out that failure to admit when you got something wrong isn't the best position for a person who claims to be a skeptic.

You know, instead of digging the hole so deep, you'd have been far better off just fessing up and saying, "Opps, yeah I misread your post, my bad" several posts back.

So in your world one has to admit to a falsehood or keep beating your dead horse?

PhantomWolf 7th June 2021 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13501990)
So in your world one has to admit to a falsehood or keep beating your dead horse?

When one is wrong then it is a good idea to admit it rather than continue to dig the hole deeper because of pride, yeah.

In this case, you either truly believe that if two crazy elements of two political parties have the same idea then pointing out that they have the same idea somehow is the same as declaring the parties themselves are the same (big hint, it isn't) or you went off halfcocked because a common turn of phrase triggered you and you didn't bother reading what was actually said because you "knew" what was said due to your triggered state.

Either way, the longer you drag it out...

Regnad Kcin 8th June 2021 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander (Post 13499331)
They are, just using salami tactics.

An excellent name for a band!

Stacyhs 11th June 2021 01:54 PM

I just watched Sen. Joni Ernst (R) on The View. She was asked about some Republicans' attempts to re-write history concerning the 1/6 uprising. She went on at great length about the recent "bi-partisan Senate report" on the failures of intelligence and the police that day and stated there are several ongoing investigations so it "never happens again". But what she failed to mention is that there is not a single investigation into Trump's and other Congressmembers' part in that insurrection. I was disappointed none of the View hosts called her on that.

Stacyhs 11th June 2021 05:45 PM

Putin described Trump as "colorful" and "talented" in an interview today:

Quote:

"Well even now, I believe that former U.S. president Mr. Trump is an extraordinary individual, talented individual, otherwise he would not have become U.S. president," Putin told NBC's Keir Simmons during a wide-ranging and, at times, contentious interview. "He is a colorful individual. You may like him or not. And, but he didn't come from the U.S. establishment. He had not been part of big-time politics before, and some like it, some don’t like it but that is a fact."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-work-n1270561

Looks like Vlad is still hoping Donnie runs and wins in 2024 so he's continuing to play to his narcissism which is the one sure way to Donnie's heart...besides money.

Stacyhs 12th June 2021 11:10 PM

And the crazies just keep on being crazy with MyPillow Loonie Lindell holding a rally:

Quote:

MyPillow Guy’s MAGA Rally Rouses ‘Stop the Steal’ Truthers With Corn Dogs and Hate for Fox News
Bikers for Trump, Pilots for Trump, and even a 13-year-old dressed as “mini” Mike Lindell turned out to hear the MyPillow CEO and Trump complain about supposedly being silenced.

While Trump was scheduled to address the predominantly white crowd via Jumbotron, Lindell, who dubbed the event a “free speech Woodstock,” inexplicably threatened to end an interview with The Daily Beast when asked if the rally could be seen as a show of strength of the Trump movement generally.

....“I’m the one who paid for this whole rally, I’m the one who put this on. I paid for everything out of my pocket,” Lindell said. “You asked me what it means? Every single person in this country, Democrats, Republican, everybody that has been canceled, just people in general, that have been canceled out. You can’t talk about machines, you can’t talk about election fraud, you can’t talk about vaccines… you can’t talk about anything or they cancel you out.”
Quote:

Another attendee, Pam Putzier, said she had no illusions that the election would be overturned, and she admitted that the crowd made up a small minority. But she is hopeful that a military coup will lead to the arrest of members of Congress and the reinstatement of Trump.

“Kick them all out. Surround the place and put them all in jail… I can’t even imagine it, but I’ll tell you what — I pray every night,” she said.

Intertwined election fraud and anti-vaccine conspiracy theories were common themes in speeches by conservative A listers like Charlie Kirk, Chris Cox, and Dinesh D'Souza. They addressed the crowd while standing on a stage featuring a large Jumbotron where Trump was set to appear— “We have the biggest Jumbotron I think I’ve ever seen,” Lindell exclaimed —with two smaller Jumbotrons on either side and a gigantic American flag hanging from a pair of construction cranes on stage right.
Quote:

Anti media sentiment was also rampant, though most of the ire was directed at Fox News—with whom Lindell had a spectacular falling out after the network opted to steer clear of him and his bonkers election fraud claims.
Quote:

“They want to silence us because of the election,” Trump said from the enormous screen. “They know the results. They know what really happened.”

He touched on what he argued was his administration’s great success with the COVID-19 vaccines, before returning to the kind of anti-immigrant rhetoric that is his hallmark: “They are killers, they are thugs, there are people being released from the jails of other countries,” he said, repeating the familiar talking points that he has used countless times since his 2016 campaign.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/mypill...e-for-fox-news

:crazy::crazy::crazy:

BobTheCoward 13th June 2021 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13506048)
Putin described Trump as "colorful" and "talented" in an interview today:


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-work-n1270561

Looks like Vlad is still hoping Donnie runs and wins in 2024 so he's continuing to play to his narcissism which is the one sure way to Donnie's heart...besides money.

By his definition, every president but a couple were talented.

The Great Zaganza 13th June 2021 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13506966)
And the crazies just keep on being crazy with MyPillow Loonie Lindell holding a rally:







https://www.thedailybeast.com/mypill...e-for-fox-news

:crazy::crazy::crazy:

I see it as part of Lindell's legal defense strategy: his defamation of Dominion can't have been lies for personnel profit if he is willing to keep on spouting nonsense and spend tons of money to do so.

Stacyhs 13th June 2021 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13507212)
I see it as part of Lindell's legal defense strategy: his defamation of Dominion can't have been lies for personnel profit if he is willing to keep on spouting nonsense and spend tons of money to do so.

Or he's just nuts.

SuburbanTurkey 14th June 2021 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13507416)
Or he's just nuts.

or it's part of a campaign to normalize a brazen lie as part of a long running scheme to seize power.

The "stop the steal" lies are going to be repeated by the right wing forever, and reinvigorated in every election they don't win. The right wing is laying the foundation for their pretext to seize power after a "stolen" election in plain sight.

Whether or not is is true isn't really that important when you consider the practical implications.

Stacyhs 14th June 2021 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13507834)
or it's part of a campaign to normalize a brazen lie as part of a long running scheme to seize power.

The "stop the steal" lies are going to be repeated by the right wing forever, and reinvigorated in every election they don't win. The right wing is laying the foundation for their pretext to seize power after a "stolen" election in plain sight.

Whether or not is is true isn't really that important when you consider the practical implications.

Lindell is nuts. But I agree that the right wing is going to repeat the Big Lie for a long, long time. It will eventually fade away as Trumpers die off leaving fewer idiots who swallowed it and history reveals even more strongly that is was just that: a lie.

Speaking of seizing power, that POS McConnell is saying it's "highly unlikely" he'd allow a Biden SCOTUS nominee to come up before the Senate if the GOP retakes it in 2022. Now, how is that for out and out denying the Constitutional right of the President to nominate and present for confirmation a new Justice? This is why I detest McConnell even more than Trump. At least Trump has somewhat of an excuse as he's mentally ill. McConnell is just an anti-democratic power, hungry POS.

SuburbanTurkey 15th June 2021 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13508663)
Lindell is nuts. But I agree that the right wing is going to repeat the Big Lie for a long, long time. It will eventually fade away as Trumpers die off leaving fewer idiots who swallowed it and history reveals even more strongly that is was just that: a lie.

Speaking of seizing power, that POS McConnell is saying it's "highly unlikely" he'd allow a Biden SCOTUS nominee to come up before the Senate if the GOP retakes it in 2022. Now, how is that for out and out denying the Constitutional right of the President to nominate and present for confirmation a new Justice? This is why I detest McConnell even more than Trump. At least Trump has somewhat of an excuse as he's mentally ill. McConnell is just an anti-democratic power, hungry POS.

"Fading away" is awfully optimistic.

This particular attack on the system didn't work, but it absolutely showed that the system is generally vulnerable. It's plainly clear that an attack through secretaries of states and other electoral administration offices is a valid way to tilt close elections Likewise it is clear that processes around the electoral college and vote certification are also extremely vulnerable to bad actors in places of trust.

I see no reason to believe that just because Trump's 2020 gambit failed, this vulnerability will not be further exploited. The fascist right is ensuring that their own faithful ideologues are in key positions of influence for future crisis. Republicans that took their duties seriously in 2020 and didn't rig the vote were identified and are being removed and replaced.

All the stories about poll workers and election officials being menaced make it clear. The fascists have identified the soft target in our system and are pushing hard. Assuming this is a passing danger is naive.

Delphic Oracle 15th June 2021 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13508987)
"Fading away" is awfully optimistic.

This particular attack on the system didn't work, but it absolutely showed that the system is generally vulnerable. It's plainly clear that an attack through secretaries of states and other electoral administration offices is a valid way to tilt close elections Likewise it is clear that processes around the electoral college and vote certification are also extremely vulnerable to bad actors in places of trust.

I see no reason to believe that just because Trump's 2020 gambit failed, this vulnerability will not be further exploited. The fascist right is ensuring that their own faithful ideologues are in key positions of influence for future crisis. Republicans that took their duties seriously in 2020 and didn't rig the vote were identified and are being removed and replaced.

All the stories about poll workers and election officials being menaced make it clear. The fascists have identified the soft target in our system and are pushing hard. Assuming this is a passing danger is naive.

Here in Missouri, the local election authority is either the (elected) county clerks or (governor appointed) commissioners of various boards of elections.

Guess where all the jurisdictions run by boards are?

BobTheCoward 15th June 2021 07:36 AM

I don't understand this , "attack on the system" and "system is vulnerable" stuff. It isn't a vulnerability. These rules are very explicit. It is the system. It would be like saying basketball is vulnerable to free throws.

gregthehammer 15th June 2021 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13508663)
Lindell is nuts. But I agree that the right wing is going to repeat the Big Lie for a long, long time. It will eventually fade away as Trumpers die off leaving fewer idiots who swallowed it and history reveals even more strongly that is was just that: a lie.

Speaking of seizing power, that POS McConnell is saying it's "highly unlikely" he'd allow a Biden SCOTUS nominee to come up before the Senate if the GOP retakes it in 2022. Now, how is that for out and out denying the Constitutional right of the President to nominate and present for confirmation a new Justice? This is why I detest McConnell even more than Trump. At least Trump has somewhat of an excuse as he's mentally ill. McConnell is just an anti-democratic power, hungry POS.

Not every trumper is a 80 year old boomer with one foot in the grave. Anecdotally speaking as a 40 something genX-er, I'd be hard pressed to count on one hand fellow Biden supporters in my social circle. I have also observed a rightward drift as my peer group ages. I have no reason to believe 20 somethings now are immune to such a pull. In otherwords, i do not share in your optimism that "Trumpers will die off".

The Great Zaganza 15th June 2021 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13509170)
I don't understand this , "attack on the system" and "system is vulnerable" stuff. It isn't a vulnerability. These rules are very explicit. It is the system. It would be like saying basketball is vulnerable to free throws.

the rules, of Basketball and Congress, are subject to interpretation by the referees.

Belz... 15th June 2021 10:20 AM

Warning: Bobbing in progress.

Skeptic Ginger 15th June 2021 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregthehammer (Post 13509324)
Not every trumper is a 80 year old boomer with one foot in the grave. Anecdotally speaking as a 40 something genX-er, I'd be hard pressed to count on one hand fellow Biden supporters in my social circle. I have also observed a rightward drift as my peer group ages. I have no reason to believe 20 somethings now are immune to such a pull. In otherwords, i do not share in your optimism that "Trumpers will die off".

This too shall pass. McCarthyism did. But it may be a while given how thoroughly the GOP has become the Dump party.

When Dump dies though, who's left to take over? No one. He's too narcissistic for such a protege. Even his kids are has-beens despite trying to still be relevant. There are a few GOP legislators vying to inherit Dump's followers. I don't think any of them look very promising as the next cult leader.

BobTheCoward 15th June 2021 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13509326)
the rules, of Basketball and Congress, are subject to interpretation by the referees.

We don't seem to be dealing with rules with multiple meanings. It seems clear that congress can absolutely vote to reject electoral votes to throw the election to themselves.

Does someone interpret that differently here?

slyjoe 15th June 2021 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregthehammer (Post 13509324)
Not every trumper is a 80 year old boomer with one foot in the grave. Anecdotally speaking as a 40 something genX-er, I'd be hard pressed to count on one hand fellow Biden supporters in my social circle. I have also observed a rightward drift as my peer group ages. I have no reason to believe 20 somethings now are immune to such a pull. In otherwords, i do not share in your optimism that "Trumpers will die off".

Nitpick: there is no such thing yet. Boomers are generally considered to have been born 1946-1964.

And get off my lawn ;)

The Great Zaganza 15th June 2021 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13509356)
We don't seem to be dealing with rules with multiple meanings. It seems clear that congress can absolutely vote to reject electoral votes to throw the election to themselves.

Does someone interpret that differently here?

No, they can't.
They would need alternative Electors from the State to do it.

dudalb 15th June 2021 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13507212)
I see it as part of Lindell's legal defense strategy: his defamation of Dominion can't have been lies for personnel profit if he is willing to keep on spouting nonsense and spend tons of money to do so.

Problem with that in a defamatation case, political motives are just as culpable as finiancial motives. You just have to prove a motive, what the specific motive is is non material as long as you can prove one.

BobTheCoward 15th June 2021 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13509459)
No, they can't.
They would need alternative Electors from the State to do it.

I see there is a dispute.

You are not correct. There is a provision for if there is alternative electors, but not required.

Stacyhs 15th June 2021 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregthehammer (Post 13509324)
Not every trumper is a 80 year old boomer with one foot in the grave. Anecdotally speaking as a 40 something genX-er, I'd be hard pressed to count on one hand fellow Biden supporters in my social circle. I have also observed a rightward drift as my peer group ages. I have no reason to believe 20 somethings now are immune to such a pull. In otherwords, i do not share in your optimism that "Trumpers will die off".

I didn't say they were and I also said it would take a "long, long time". Trump supporters are generally older and white. Polls* show that voters 18-44 prefer Biden while Trump's biggest support come from those over 65, 45-65 are pretty much evenly split. It's true that people tend to become more conservative as they age, but that doesn't mean they become idiots and become authoritarian lovers. Also, our demographics are changing and the white voter will become less dominant as the percentage of people of color grows. Voters of color overwhelmingly vote Democratic regardless of age.

*https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-votes-age-us/

Norman Alexander 15th June 2021 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slyjoe (Post 13509454)
Nitpick: there is no such thing yet. Boomers are generally considered to have been born 1946-1964.

And get off my lawn ;)

I'm in that bracket. I have gotten more democratic socialist in my old age.

Stacyhs 15th June 2021 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander (Post 13510037)
I'm in that bracket. I have gotten more democratic socialist in my old age.

Ditto.


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