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-   -   Cancel culture IRL (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345985)

d4m10n 8th August 2020 08:28 PM

Cancel culture IRL
 
Erstwhile atheist activist takes on Kroger employee.

https://twitter.com/DanielleMuscato/...97282712023041

TragicMonkey 8th August 2020 09:02 PM

And? What are you saying about this, here, to us?

If your intent is to decry "cancel culture" I hope you realize by posting a link to an example of it you're actually furthering it by increasing the target's exposure to a larger pool of people hearing about the event.

d4m10n 8th August 2020 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 13183943)
And? What are you saying about this, here, to us?

What I'm asking is whether it makes sense to cancel publicly shame this employee. Any thoughts?

TragicMonkey 8th August 2020 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13183944)
What I'm asking is whether it makes sense to cancel publicly shame this employee. Any thoughts?

It seems pointless to me; I certainly wouldn't act to further the spread of this public shaming.

BobTheCoward 8th August 2020 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13183944)
What I'm asking is whether it makes sense to cancel publicly shame this employee. Any thoughts?

No different than a Yelp review.

Meadmaker 8th August 2020 10:51 PM

I've been among those who rail against cancel culture, but I have a little bit of a hard time with this one.

My huge complaint about cancel culture is that the common pattern is that someone does something in their life, and there are then public shaming and demands that they be fired from their job because of their political beliefs or their unfortunate behavior that was caught on camera. The company they work for might fire them, not because they were a bad employee, but they are afraid of retaliation by angry mobs on something not related to their job performance.

In this case, the tweet is very specifically about the way the man has performed his job. The tweet's author (whose name I recognize and I know has come up in relation to some sort of skeptic gathering, the details of which I've forgotten) is calling attention to a Kroger employee's failure to enforce store policy, with the result that public health is compromised. That doesn't seem all that bad to me.

Making it so personal makes me nervous but other than that, I can't see a huge problem. Where I might have a problem would be with the Kroger chain's response. If they just sack the guy in order to be able to claim that they did something about the problem and assuage the Twitter mob's demands, I would object. What ought to happen is that the managers above him evaluate his record, including this incident. I assume that the store and/or the local government has a policy that masks must be worn, and so refusing to enforce that policy should be seen as a negative, but not necessarily something for which he ought to be fired.

RolandRat 8th August 2020 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 13183946)
It seems pointless to me; I certainly wouldn't act to further the spread of this public shaming.

He seems to be doing ok. A Gofundme that someone set up for him has raised about 18K so far.

The comments on the Twitter seem to be fairly split between supporters and the nots as well.

Other employees have posted that company policy is for them not to tell unmasked customers to leave. The "shaming" seems to be having the opposite effect here.

angrysoba 8th August 2020 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13183944)
What I'm asking is whether it makes sense to cancel publicly shame this employee. Any thoughts?

I didn't realize you were asking anything at all. There is certainly no question in the OP. There is also nothing that explains the situation.

My suggestion for making a post:

1.) begin with a short summary of the known facts from as objective a point of view as possible.

2.) then give your opinion on the topic and a discussion question so that posters here can bicker and argue in a time-honoured fashion.

Your OP is the type that demands other posters do all the work of understanding the story and forming their own discussion topics.

AnonyMoose 9th August 2020 12:03 AM

Apparently I'm living under a rock and have no idea what this "cancel culture" thing is?

Is this something I need to be aware of? Is it important enough that I need to spend 10 minutes of my life sifting through google results? Or is this just another newly invented catchphrase du jour that only applies to left-right political pissing contests on the internet?

smartcooky 9th August 2020 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonyMoose (Post 13184016)
Apparently I'm living under a rock and have no idea what this "cancel culture" thing is?

Is this something I need to be aware of? Is it important enough that I need to spend 10 minutes of my life sifting through google results? Or is this just another newly invented catchphrase du jour that only applies to left-right political pissing contests on the internet?

This is one of the best takes on Cancel Culture I have seen so far. Its a parody, but you'll get the idea

https://www.facebook.com/johnbcrist/...0635490756182/

Squeegee Beckenheim 9th August 2020 03:02 AM

Admittedly I've only scrolled through the first couple of dozen replies to that tweet, but the ones I've read are of the "it's fine" and "I'm still going to shop there" bent. So I'm not really seeing how this is an example of cancel culture at all.

Squeegee Beckenheim 9th August 2020 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonyMoose (Post 13184016)
Apparently I'm living under a rock and have no idea what this "cancel culture" thing is?

Is this something I need to be aware of? Is it important enough that I need to spend 10 minutes of my life sifting through google results? Or is this just another newly invented catchphrase du jour that only applies to left-right political pissing contests on the internet?

Basically, someone does something that someone doesn't like. They post about it online. People agree with the first person. The person who did the thing that people didn't like suffers real-world consequences.

Sometimes this can take the form of a hate-mob trying to cost someone their job (as in the case of a far-right pundit explicitly trying to get James Gunn fired for tweeting something sarcastic about Trump), and sometimes this can mean things becoming more just (like the convictions of Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein, as well as the general change in culture around the film and TV industry thanks to the #MeToo movement).

It's often painted as something that only left-wingers do and is only ever a hysterical overreaction that costs innocent people their livelihoods, but that isn't really the case.

shemp 9th August 2020 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 13183998)
He seems to be doing ok. A Gofundme that someone set up for him has raised about 18K so far.

The comments on the Twitter seem to be fairly split between supporters and the nots as well.

Other employees have posted that company policy is for them not to tell unmasked customers to leave. The "shaming" seems to be having the opposite effect here.

Nice reward for following a bad company policy. If Kroger is going to require masks and then not enforce it, people should go after the company, not the manager. If I shopped regularly at Kroger, I would tell them that I will stop doing so until they enforce their policy.

d4m10n 9th August 2020 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13184069)
Admittedly I've only scrolled through the first couple of dozen replies to that tweet, but the ones I've read are of the "it's fine" and "I'm still going to shop there" bent. So I'm not really seeing how this is an example of cancel culture at all.

Are those the sorts of replies Danielle was hoping to see?

Cain 9th August 2020 07:21 AM

I think part of the problem here is that the man attached to that torso does not want to be broadcast to the world. He's covering his name tag. She should have made it more about the maskless offender and the impersonal corporation. But if she did that then it probably would not have gone viral.

I've never heard of Danielle Muscato, but her front page looks like Titania McGrath's.

Joe Random 9th August 2020 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13183996)
<...> The tweet's author (whose name I recognize and I know has come up in relation to some sort of skeptic gathering, the details of which I've forgotten) <...>


Lucky bastard.

d4m10n 9th August 2020 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13183996)
The tweet's author . . . is calling attention to a Kroger employee's failure to enforce store policy, with the result that public health is compromised. That doesn't seem all that bad to me.

I would tend to agree, assuming Danielle presented an accurate and unbiased account, but so far as I am aware we've yet to hear from the two other parties involved in the incident.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13183996)
Where I might have a problem would be with the Kroger chain's response. If they just sack the guy in order to be able to claim that they did something about the problem and assuage the Twitter mob's demands, I would object. What ought to happen is that the managers above him evaluate his record, including this incident.

Agreed. I'm afraid that when something like this goes viral (pun intended?) there is relatively little incentive for corporations to take such a measured and careful approach.

BobTheCoward 9th August 2020 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13183996)
The company they work for might fire them, not because they were a bad employee, but they are afraid of retaliation by angry mobs

Prove this is the reason rather than something else such as the other individuals also do not want the company associated with those views

RolandRat 9th August 2020 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shemp (Post 13184147)
Nice reward for following a bad company policy. If Kroger is going to require masks and then not enforce it, people should go after the company, not the manager. If I shopped regularly at Kroger, I would tell them that I will stop doing so until they enforce their policy.

Agreed. And that is what a lot of people are saying to the lady who stuck his picture on her Twitter. That she should be going after the store rather than some employee doing his job.

What happened is that Danielle saw a customer without a mask. She approached that customer and told her/him to put a mask on or leave. She claims the other customer threatened her. She approached the manager and informed him. He asked the customer to put a mask on, customer refused, manager left it at that.

Danielle seems to be pushing the angle that as she was threatened then the manager has a duty to remove the other customer from the store. I'm not sure what the stores legal responsibilities here are.

kookbreaker 9th August 2020 08:51 AM

It's always Kroger...

d4m10n 9th August 2020 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 13184184)
I think part of the problem here is that the man attached to that torso does not want to be broadcast to the world. He's covering his name tag.

In the age of viral shaming, it sort of sucks to be him: https://twitter.com/hashtag/krogerandy

ETA: Glad he's getting some support to go w/ the surge of unwanted fame infamy, though.

xterra 9th August 2020 09:01 AM

Purely by coincidence, I had a conversation with an employee (I'll call him "Joe" for convenience) in a Kroger subsidiary early last week, after I had seen several customers in the store without masks, despite the signs at the entrance saying that masks are required by local ordinance.

Joe told me that Kroger says that no one except a store manager is allowed to confront* a customer about not wearing a mask — nor about shoplifting. In fact, Joe says, an employee can be fired for violating this rule.

I am guessing the rule may be intended to protect both Kroger and the employee, for liability and physical safety reasons.




* "Confront" here means verbally by mentioning the action, or physically even by obstructing the customer (or thief) from leaving.

johnny karate 9th August 2020 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonyMoose (Post 13184016)
Apparently I'm living under a rock and have no idea what this "cancel culture" thing is?

Is this something I need to be aware of? Is it important enough that I need to spend 10 minutes of my life sifting through google results? Or is this just another newly invented catchphrase du jour that only applies to left-right political pissing contests on the internet?

Your guess is a good as anyone’s. The anti-“cancel culture” people in this thread can’t even seem to agree on what it is.

The best I can tell, it’s when people say something critical in a public forum about someone else who said or did something those people didn’t like.

However, when you get into specifics, it becomes difficult to nail down exactly when this qualifies as “cancel culture” and when it doesn’t, as we’re seeing in this very thread.

And this phenomenon is supposedly, somehow, the death knell of free speech, and also something about Orwell.

rockysmith76 9th August 2020 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13183930)
Erstwhile atheist activist takes on Kroger employee.

https://twitter.com/DanielleMuscato/...97282712023041

So a petty spat at a store needs to go viral to cancel that guy out of a job? Some folks have waaaaaaaay too free time. The mask denier should have been made to leave, but Cancel Culture is purely BS. Those who pursue it are parasites.

rockysmith76 9th August 2020 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13183996)
My huge complaint about cancel culture is that the common pattern is that someone does something in their life, and there are then public shaming and demands that they be fired from their job because of their political beliefs or their unfortunate behavior that was caught on camera.

It's bullying based on trying to punish someone for their beliefs etc, but instead of teh Chinese Government hitting your social credit score, a bunch of social media scumbags do it instead, but it basically the same thing and it's anti democratic.

Cain 9th August 2020 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13184323)
Your guess is a good as anyone’s. The anti-“cancel culture” people in this thread can’t even seem to agree on what it is.

I think it's about online mobs.

Also, Danielle looks like a professional activist, which is not just going to trigger right-wingers but anyone who hates busy-bodies.

If a store manager were caught pummeling a child, then people would be posting their justifiable outrage. Calls to have a violent psychopath canceled would not invite a backlash.

We're in more of a gray area with these masks. There's a consensus that people should wear masks out in public, and businesses should require masks before entering their stores, but people do not want to see Andy punished, much less lose his livelihood during a pandemic. And that's understandable.

Apparently a lot of middle-class women fear they're one stupid little joke away from poverty. They stress about their husband saying "the wrong thing" and then getting fired.

johnny karate 9th August 2020 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 13184408)
I think it's about online mobs.

Define and quantify “online mob”. And what specifically are these so-called “mobs” doing that is objectionable?

Quote:

Apparently a lot of middle-class women fear they're one stupid little joke away from poverty. They stress about their husband saying "the wrong thing" and then getting fired.
Yes, what a tragedy that people should monitor their own behavior in public and perhaps put a little thought into their words and actions.

Elagabalus 9th August 2020 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13184519)
Define and quantify “online mob”. And what specifically are these so-called “mobs” doing that is objectionable?



Yes, what a tragedy that people should monitor their own behavior in public and perhaps put a little thought into their words and actions.


This is a guess. Danielle is an A++++ kind of atheist activist and this story is all the rage over at TheSlymepit™*


*but I haven't checked.

Cain 9th August 2020 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13184519)
Define and quantify “online mob”.

If you're clueless about what this suggests, then there's probably nothing I can say to explain it.

Quote:

And what specifically are these so-called “mobs” doing that is objectionable?
Getting people fired.

Quote:

Yes, what a tragedy that people should monitor their own behavior in public and perhaps put a little thought into their words and actions.
You mean people like Colin Kaepernick?

d4m10n 9th August 2020 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13184519)
Define and quantify “online mob”. And what specifically are these so-called “mobs” doing that is objectionable?

A large group of people unaffected by the events in question (e.g. at a particular Kroger) piling on in order to influence cultural norms. Often paired w/ demands for a particular employee to be reprimanded, suspended, or sacked.

I don't think Danielle managed to gather a mob (at least not from what I've seen so far) although the original post looked like it was meant to solicit this kind of response.

Puppycow 9th August 2020 05:27 PM

‘Danielle’ Becomes The New ‘Karen’ After Kroger Store Incident

An epic backfire.

I'm pro-mask, but I don't go around ordering others to wear them or having a tantrum if they won't. The easiest way is to just keep your distance if you are uncomfortable being near someone who is unmasked.

johnny karate 9th August 2020 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 13184643)
If you're clueless about what this suggests, then there's probably nothing I can say to explain it.

By post number six of this thread, it was revealed that critics of “cancel culture” can’t even decide among themselves what actually constitutes “cancel culture”.

The ambiguity of terms is not my fault nor is it my problem. If you don’t want to clarify, that is your prerogative. But don’t expect anyone to take your arguments seriously.

Quote:

Getting people fired.
How would these “mobs” be able to get someone fired who didn’t actually do anything that warrants firing?

Quote:

You mean people like Colin Kaepernick?
No.

mumblethrax 9th August 2020 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13184686)
How would these “mobs” be able to get someone fired who didn’t actually do anything that warrants firing?

By creating enough controversy that the employer fires their target simply to make the problem go away.

It's not like large corporations are dedicated to fairness and justice. They're primarily interested in the bottom line.

johnny karate 9th August 2020 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13184654)
A large group of people unaffected by the events in question (e.g. at a particular Kroger) piling on in order to influence cultural norms. Often paired w/ demands for a particular employee to be reprimanded, suspended, or sacked.

This would include every white person who took part in the boycotts of the Civil Rights Era.

Quote:

I don't think Danielle managed to gather a mob (at least not from what I've seen so far) although the original post looked like it was meant to solicit this kind of response.
If there is no mob, how is this an example of “cancel culture”?

johnny karate 9th August 2020 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mumblethrax (Post 13184715)
By creating enough controversy that the employer fires their target simply to make the problem go away.

It's not like large corporations are dedicated to fairness and justice. They're primarily interested in the bottom line.

And how does one “create” controversy?

And if the ability to “create” controversy and “get” someone fired has been weaponized to such great effect, why do so many of these attempts fail?

How is that so many corporations are able to ignore the “online mobs” and the alleged controversy that they “create”?

johnny karate 9th August 2020 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppycow (Post 13184676)
‘Danielle’ Becomes The New ‘Karen’ After Kroger Store Incident

An epic backfire.

I'm pro-mask, but I don't go around ordering others to wear them or having a tantrum if they won't. The easiest way is to just keep your distance if you are uncomfortable being near someone who is unmasked.

Useless advice if you are in an enclosed space with that person.

We’re deeply mired in a public health crisis of historic proportions and the anti-maskers are a legitimate threat to the safety of those around them.

This isn’t about being “uncomfortable”. It’s about not wanting to die because of some selfish, ignorant *******.

angrysoba 9th August 2020 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13184731)
And how does one “create” controversy?

And if the ability to “create” controversy and “get” someone fired has been weaponized to such great effect, why do so many of these attempts fail?

"So many attempts" at what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13184731)
How is that so many corporations are able to ignore the “online mobs” and the alleged controversy that they “create”?

"So many corporations" ignore the "online mobs"?

You seem to be halfway to acknowledging the existence of a particular kind of behaviour, which is to get someone "cancelled".

I think at first you were saying that such things don't exist. Now you are saying that they exist all right, but that many of these hitherto non-existent cancel campaigns just fail.

Maybe they do fail, and maybe the purported victims often end up either unscathed or sometimes even benefit from the exposure rather than the intended effect, but the fact that these campaigns are regularly attempted actually suggest there is a kind of culture.

johnny karate 9th August 2020 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 13184740)
"So many attempts" at what?

Attempts at altering the behavior of and/or eliciting a specific action from a business or corporation by means of some type of public pressure.

Quote:

"So many corporations" ignore the "online mobs"?
Yes, all the time.

Quote:

You seem to be halfway to acknowledging the existence of a particular kind of behaviour, which is to get someone "cancelled".

I think at first you were saying that such things don't exist. Now you are saying that they exist all right, but that many of these hitherto non-existent cancel campaigns just fail.
I’m not acknowledging anything. I’m putting certain words in quotes for a reason.

Quote:

Maybe they do fail, and maybe the purported victims often end up either unscathed or sometimes even benefit from the exposure rather than the intended effect, but the fact that these campaigns are regularly attempted actually suggest there is a kind of culture.
If there is, it seems to be a pretty toothless one with no real power. So I’m not sure what the concern is.

Puppycow 9th August 2020 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13184739)
Useless advice if you are in an enclosed space with that person.

We’re deeply mired in a public health crisis of historic proportions and the anti-maskers are a legitimate threat to the safety of those around them.

This isn’t about being “uncomfortable”. It’s about not wanting to die because of some selfish, ignorant *******.

If they actually have the virus, then getting into a verbal confrontation with them only increases the risk to you. If you want to decrease your risk of infection, move a safe distance away, don't get in their face and confront them. Talking, particularly with a raised voice, is more likely to spread it than simply staying quiet and taking small breaths.

d4m10n 9th August 2020 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13184728)
This would include every white person who took part in the boycotts of the Civil Rights Era.

Plenty of conceptual space between calling for a boycott and tryna get individual workers reprimanded or fired.


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