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-   -   Trump immigrant family separation policy (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330118)

uke2se 19th June 2018 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12332267)
Why should the Democrats be his water carriers ?

Exactly. What congressional Democrats could do is to draft a law granting blanket asylum to everyone detained in a Trump concentration camp.

Upchurch 19th June 2018 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12332262)
Could congress fix this by drafting legislation that specifically forbids the separation of families? Like a line inserted into the law that makes border crossing a crime? If so, I'd like to see the Democrats draft such a bill in response to Trump's BS buck-passing to them.

They already have (a little over half way down the article). As of four days ago, they seem to be having trouble getting Republicans to sign on.

kookbreaker 19th June 2018 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12332031)
So let me see, the Republican defences of this policy so far are:
  • It's a law put in place by the Democrats and they are powerless to do things any differently
  • It can only be repealed by an act of Congress and the Democrats are blocking any such move
  • It's the parents' fault, not the administration's
  • They are morally obliged to do things this way because the Bible says so
  • The camps are fine because, even though the children are being put in cages, they're not literally being treated like animals, so the word "cages" shouldn't be used
  • The camps are fine because any children seeming upset are just actors who have been coached and given scripts by Democrats
  • The camps are fine because it's just like being at summer camp
  • There actually is no policy that separates children from their parents

Did I miss any?

[*] There are no such camps, you liberals are making this all up.

Yes, I am seeing that being said.

WilliamSeger 19th June 2018 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12332248)
They should be allowed to keep the family together, and if it is decided that they are to be deported, they should be deported as a family.

It's not rocket science. All that's needed is a teensy bit of empathy, which is why it seems like rocket science to conservatives.

The really unresolvable divide in this country is between people who have empathy for the plight of others and those who don't. Look into just about any "liberal vs. conservative" issue, and that's what you'll find.

Squeegee Beckenheim 19th June 2018 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upchurch (Post 12332270)
They already have (a little over half way down the article). As of four days ago, they seem to be having trouble getting Republicans to sign on.

In fact, every Democrat has signed on. No Republicans have.

rdwight 19th June 2018 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12332281)
In fact, every Democrat has signed on. No Republicans have.

Has any come out with exactly what they disagree with in regards to the Keep Families Together Act? Having trouble finding any specifics from any specific Senators.

The Don 19th June 2018 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwight (Post 12332284)
Has any come out with exactly what they disagree with in regards to the Keep Families Together Act? Having trouble finding any specifics from any specific Senators.

No senate Republican in his/her right mind would sign up to a Democratic Party bill (and I suspect vice-versa). Even if all Republicans agreed, they'd draft their own bill.

The Big Dog 19th June 2018 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwight (Post 12332284)
Has any come out with exactly what they disagree with in regards to the Keep Families Together Act? Having trouble finding any specifics from any specific Senators.

In light of the documented history of human traffickers during the Obama era, the concern is that criminal elements will use children who are not their own to get into the country.

Worm 19th June 2018 08:20 AM

"@SenatorCollins says she doesn't support legislative efforts to stop family separation because she thinks the bills on offer are "far too broad." Adds that she supports building the wall as part of a comprehensive solution."
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1008363367927549953

rdwight 19th June 2018 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12332287)
No senate Republican in his/er right mind would sign up to a Democratic Party bill (and I suspect vice-versa). Even if all Republicans agreed, they'd draft their own bill.

Seems to be what Ted Cruz is doing. And I don't hate his bill either. But i would like to know any specifics of what issues conservatives have with the bill put forward currently. Again you point out the ******** optics these politicians play, looking to place blame, get credit and avoid solving an issue unless their side 'wins'.

WilliamSeger 19th June 2018 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12332287)
No senate Republican in his/er right mind would sign up to a Democratic Party bill (and I suspect vice-versa). Even if all Republicans agreed, they'd draft their own bill.

And there's no point in passing either bill unless they're veto-proof. The Deal Artist is holding the children hostage to get money to build his legacy: the world's biggest and most terrific monument to bigotry and stupidity. I dearly hope that if he succeeds, he puts TRUMP in 20-foot letters on it.

The Big Dog 19th June 2018 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwight (Post 12332293)
Seems to be what Ted Cruz is doing. And I don't hate his bill either. But i would like to know any specifics of what issues conservatives have with the bill put forward currently. Again you point out the ******** optics these politicians play, looking to place blame, get credit and avoid solving an issue unless their side 'wins'.

https://twitter.com/TomCottonAR/stat...85028226265088

Foolmewunz 19th June 2018 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwight (Post 12332284)
Has any come out with exactly what they disagree with in regards to the Keep Families Together Act? Having trouble finding any specifics from any specific Senators.

The only one I've heard even commented was the notorious RINO, Collins (ME). She, too is laying low, saying the bill is too broad and that she prefers a previous nearly bipartisan effort that Trump has refused to back because it didn't give him enough ransom for his wall.

As of this writing the bill now has 49 co-sponsors. Every Democratic Senator has signed on as co-sponsor. Not a single Republican.

A thousand points of light, my ass. I just need to see two of them. Two Republican Senators with balls.

rdwight 19th June 2018 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12332291)
In light of the documented history of human traffickers during the Obama era, the concern is that criminal elements will use children who are not their own to get into the country.

I've seen that mentioned but I don't really see anything in the bill that would harm that. It is literally an option within the bill to address that.

Quote:

(3) The Chief Patrol Agent or the Area Port Director in their official and undelegated capacity, authorizes separation upon the recommendation by an agent or officer, based on a finding that—
(A) the child is a victim of trafficking or is at significant risk of becoming a victim of trafficking;
(B) there is a strong likelihood that the adult is not the parent or legal guardian of the child; or
(C) the child is in danger of abuse or neglect at the hands of the parent or legal guardian, or is a danger to themselves or others.
Edit to add - If anyone wants to see the bill proposed Keeping Families Together Act

phiwum 19th June 2018 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12332267)
Why should the Democrats be his water carriers ?

Because it's the right thing to do?

Won't happen, because they haven't the numbers, but it's worth a try.

rdwight 19th June 2018 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12332298)

This is more of the stuff I hate. It's a talking point. Show me the meat of it. Point to provisions you disagree with and how they relate to that (him. not you). And then use this thing called conversation to have any provisions you disagree with changed. If some obvious loophole is there that you need plugged to protect children, say it. Point it out. Let the democrats know they have your vote if x,y,z is fixed. Otherwise it's simply 'democrat bill, no go' to me.

ponderingturtle 19th June 2018 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeyore1954 (Post 12332237)
Am I wrong or do families that come to the border to seek asylum not get separated but those got caught coming across the border do?

This was always a specific policy about asylum seekers.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/imm...rs-feb-n884371

Here are asylum seekers separated.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/03/07/...g-immigration/

So that is perfectly accurate.

eeyore1954 19th June 2018 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12332248)
They should be allowed to keep the family together, and if it is decided that they are to be deported, they should be deported as a family.

It's not rocket science. All that's needed is a teensy bit of empathy, which is why it seems like rocket science to conservatives.

If it can be done logistically that is a much better option in my opinion.

uke2se 19th June 2018 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeyore1954 (Post 12332339)
If it can be done logistically that is a much better option in my opinion.

You think it's because of logistics that families are separated? :boggled:

Or that logistics should be the reason for keeping families together? :boggled:

Trebuchet 19th June 2018 09:00 AM

Party of "family values" my ass. They only want families that are White, Christian (and not just any flavor of Christian), not LGBT, etc.

ponderingturtle 19th June 2018 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeyore1954 (Post 12332339)
If it can be done logistically that is a much better option in my opinion.

But that has no deterance effect to make sure that people from ******** countries know better than to seek asylum here.

phiwum 19th June 2018 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worm (Post 12332292)
"@SenatorCollins says she doesn't support legislative efforts to stop family separation because she thinks the bills on offer are "far too broad." Adds that she supports building the wall as part of a comprehensive solution."
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1008363367927549953

That's very surprising to me.

logger 19th June 2018 09:22 AM

DHS secretary said 10,000 out of 12,000 came here alone or with strangers.

The Great Zaganza 19th June 2018 10:07 AM

Democrats should start a bill that will put all children of illegal immigrants in the foster care of gay couples.
That should get Republicans to come around.

sts60 19th June 2018 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum (Post 12332355)
That's very surprising to me.

It’s not surprising. She’s spineless. She’s also lying; the Democrat-sponsored bill is very narrowly focused on stopping Trump’s policy of taking children away from their families.

Anyone who supports this monstrous policy and still claims to be about “family values” is a hypocrite of the first order.

ponderingturtle 19th June 2018 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sts60 (Post 12332460)
It’s not surprising. She’s spineless. She’s also lying; the Democrat-sponsored bill is very narrowly focused on stopping Trump’s policy of taking children away from their families.

Anyone who supports this monstrous policy and still claims to be about “family values” is a hypocrite of the first order.

Only real families of course. Proper white christian heterosexual ones.

Babbylonian 19th June 2018 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12332383)
DHS secretary said 10,000 out of 12,000 came here alone or with strangers.

83% of children came to America alone or with strangers? Do you actually believe that, or is it obvious even to you that those numbers are beyond implausible?


There is simply no limit to the lies this administration will tell in the pursuit of pure evil.

sylvan8798 19th June 2018 11:34 AM

There are reports that some parents are being returned to their origin countries WITHOUT their children. Why would we want to keep these children? Isn't the point to get rid of these "undesirables"? One of the common arguments against the illegal immigrants is that they are using our taxpayer-funded resources - schools, medical care, etc. What are these kids doing RIGHT NOW? How much resources is going into imprisoning them in compounds hither and yon?

And where are the girls and babies? #WhereAreTheGirls

Fudbucker 19th June 2018 11:36 AM

"We finally have a decent number of polls testing support for the Trump administration’s policy of separating parents from their children at the border. As of early Tuesday, four pollsters — CBS News, CNN, Quinnipiac and IPSOS — had released surveys; they found that about two-thirds of the American public oppose the policy, on average."
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...lly-unpopular/

About half of Republicans support it.

Upchurch 19th June 2018 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sylvan8798 (Post 12332541)
There are reports that some parents are being returned to their origin countries WITHOUT their children. Why would we want to keep these children?

There are two possibilities:
  1. The Trump administration is planning something nefarious.
  2. The bureaucracy around this is so poorly thought out that they simply don't have a way to reunite the families before the parents get deported.

I'm inclined to think the latter, but I honestly can't discount the possibility of the former.

Fudbucker 19th June 2018 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upchurch (Post 12332549)
There are two possibilities:
  1. The Trump administration is planning something nefarious.
  2. The bureaucracy around this is so poorly thought out that they simply don't have a way to reunite the families before the parents get deported.

I'm inclined to think the latter, but I honestly can't discount the possibility of the former.

Soylent Brown?

Skeptic Ginger 19th June 2018 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeyore1954 (Post 12332237)
Am I wrong or do families that come to the border to seek asylum not get separated but those got caught coming across the border do?

It's a catch 22. The ones that try to come through a port of entry and request asylum cannot get in. Often they are prevented from reaching US territory and those that do get that far are told to wait, then are never let in to be processed.


BTW, how come all these people are getting caught once they come in illegally? Could it be no wall is going to stop them?

xjx388 19th June 2018 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upchurch (Post 12332549)
There are two possibilities:
  1. The Trump administration is planning something nefarious.
  2. The bureaucracy around this is so poorly thought out that they simply don't have a way to reunite the families before the parents get deported.



I'm inclined to think the latter, but I honestly can't discount the possibility of the former.



Or: Those reports are unsubstantiated and it’s not actually happening. Not saying it couldn’t but I don’t think we need to introduce stuff that may be an exaggeration or false. That iconic-but-misrepresented photo of the kid crying through the bars of a cage didn’t help anything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Upchurch 19th June 2018 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fudbucker (Post 12332554)
Soylent Brown?

Hostages for the border wall money, either from Mexico or Democrats? *shrug*

ponderingturtle 19th June 2018 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12332560)
Or: Those reports are unsubstantiated and it’s not actually happening. Not saying it couldn’t but I don’t think we need to introduce stuff that may be an exaggeration or false. That iconic-but-misrepresented photo of the kid crying through the bars of a cage didn’t help anything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How about the accurate photos of the kids huddling under foil blankets in a former walmart with chain link fences separating them into pens?

https://www.thecut.com/2018/06/insid...eparation.html

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/19/62106...-at-the-border

But never let real facts get in the way, only facts that have the Trump seal from the Trump Ministry Of Truth.

It is like the photos of the prison bus full of infant car seats. The dispute isn't over if the photo is real, but if you can call it a prison buss when it is going to a concentration camp/detention center not a formal prison.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pr...us-for-babies/

Fudbucker 19th June 2018 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upchurch (Post 12332564)
Hostages for the border wall money, either from Mexico or Democrats? *shrug*

That was probably the original plan.

Random 19th June 2018 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12332555)
It's a catch 22. The ones that try to come through a port of entry and request asylum cannot get in. Often they are prevented from reaching US territory and those that do get that far are told to wait, then are never let in to be processed.


BTW, how come all these people are getting caught once they come in illegally? Could it be no wall is going to stop them?

Many of them are not really being "caught". They get to the border, try to get in and apply for asylum in the legal way, find that the offices are full or closed, cross the border illegally, then immediately go looking for a CPB officer to turn themselves in to and try to apply for asylum that way...

Upchurch 19th June 2018 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12332560)
Or: Those reports are unsubstantiated and it’s not actually happening. Not saying it couldn’t but I don’t think we need to introduce stuff that may be an exaggeration or false. That iconic-but-misrepresented photo of the kid crying through the bars of a cage didn’t help anything.

Well, we can cross that off the list of possibilities.

Immigrant families separated at border struggle to find each other
In Trump’s efficient U.S. family separation system, reunions take far longer

ponderingturtle 19th June 2018 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random (Post 12332575)
Many of them are not really being "caught". They get to the border, try to get in and apply for asylum in the legal way, find that the offices are full or closed, cross the border illegally, then immediately go looking for a CPB officer to turn themselves in to and try to apply for asylum that way...

That is what they get for thinking america has any mercy for them. They need to be punished for that.

bruto 19th June 2018 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12331885)
Part of maturity is accepting that the world will throw inequities at you. But empathy and understanding is supposed to lead us to greater discipline and humanity. Yes, doing the right thing is not a deterrent. The solution isn't to do the wrong thing like what is threatening you.

There was a time in my life where I thought the solution was to be hard. That solving my problems was to strip myself of my empathy and inhibition. I was teenager. To see that thinking in adults and elders is pitiful.

I have often disagreed with you on things, often quite vigorously, but not this time. Well put. In fact, I think perhaps I'll nominate it.


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