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-   -   Trump immigrant family separation policy (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330118)

Skeptic Ginger 19th June 2018 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeyore1954 (Post 12332246)
What have we done in the past? What should happen to someone who comes across the border illegally?

All these families were not fleeing violence in their countries in these numbers until a decade ago, the problem is getting worse, and the US has contributed to the problem.

NatGeo 2014: American-Born Gangs Helping Drive Immigrant Crisis at U.S. Border
Quote:

Central America's spiraling violence has a Los Angeles connection. ...

That type of violence—driven in Honduras and El Salvador by drug gangs that force children to work for them or risk being killed—has helped to fuel the dramatic surge in Central American migrants to the U.S. border, where many remain in detention centers. ...

But one aspect of the Central American violence that's feeding the border crisis has been largely overlooked: its roots in the gang culture of Los Angeles. Many of the gangs that are destabilizing much of Central America are American-born.

The history of Central American gang violence dates to the 1980s, when civil wars in El Salvador and Nicaragua sent thousands of people north, in search of refuge. Some of those immigrants found their way into gangs in Los Angeles that wound up seeding drug-related violence back home, often after their members were deported by the United States, analysts say.

"These gangs are part of the cultural fabric of the U.S., not Central America," says John Sullivan, a gang specialist with the Los Angeles County sheriff's department. "We deport them, and they're bigger and badder than any gangs there, and they dominate. And now we have areas [in Central America] that are widely destabilized, with a high degree of violence."

That violence has helped to create waves of refugees, many of them children, who have arrived at the U.S. border. The crisis has provoked urgent calls for the White House and Congress to respond to the swelling ranks of children filling detention centers along the southwestern border. The situation has led to finger-pointing among U.S. politicians as well as debates in many American communities over the potential impact of young immigrants on schools and a range of social service programs.
And no, Obama did not do enough and Clinton made it worse supporting the unelected leader in Honduras.
Quote:

At the beginning of Clinton’s tenure as Secretary of State in 2009, the Honduran military ousted democratically elected President Manuel Zelaya in a coup d’etat. The United Nations condemned the military coup and the Organization of American States suspended Honduras from its membership, calling for Zelaya’s reinstatement. Instead of joining the international effort to isolate the new regime, Clinton’s State Department pushed for a new election and decided not to declare that a military coup had occurred. ...

Emails that have since surfaced show that Clinton and her team worked behind the scenes to fend off efforts by neighboring democracies through the Organization of American States to restore the elected president to power. “The OAS meeting today turned into a non-event ― just as we hoped,” wrote one top State official, celebrating a strategy of slow-walking a restoration.

Critics of the decision not to shut off aid said it essentially legitimized the coup government as it cracked down on dissent. And the outcome hasn’t been so great: Since 2009, the country has become increasingly dangerous, contributing significantly to the 2014 surge of unaccompanied minor children fleeing to the U.S.
IOW, the same old ****, heaven forbid a leftist democracy take hold anywhere in Latin America, they might confiscate corporate property and actually use it to benefit their own citizens. .. But I digress.

But the Trump et al response is worse, denying anyone refuge, keeping them from getting here, and using brown people as the fear mongering mantra to lead the alt-white masses. They have no sense of the US complicity in the mess.

But just as important, you can't simply wall it off and pretend it doesn't involve the US.

Quote:

[NatGeo:] By the 1990s, federal prosecutors were pushing to deport tens of thousands of immigrants with criminal records, an effort that hit the Maras hard. Gang members were targeted by new laws and sent back to their home countries, including Honduras. Back in Central America, the young men trained in gang warfare began to reconstruct the world they knew in Los Angeles and other American cities.

... "They came back to Central America, and suddenly [they had] control of the whole country. The police don't know anything about these gangs." Suddenly, it wasn't just a gang problem anymore—it was organized crime.

In the meantime, the Maras had split into factions, with one group, the MS13—the 13 stands for the letter M, the 13th letter of the alphabet—fighting brutally against MS18, or the 18th Street gang, as it was known in Los Angeles. That rivalry, too, was exported and sharpened back home in Central America.

The government of El Salvador tried for a time to broker a ceasefire between the two factions, but the effort collapsed in 2012. As fighting intensified, several cities in Honduras and El Salvador became—and remain—among the deadliest places in the world. ...

Two big Mexican drug organizations, the Sinaloa cartel and Los Zetas—comprising former paramilitary soldiers who went rogue and became traffickers—began using Honduras as a waypoint.

newyorkguy 19th June 2018 12:57 PM

Worth repeating:

Quote:

@HillaryClinton The test of any nation is how we treat the most vulnerable among us. First Lady @LauraWBush made that case eloquently.

Quote:

@LauraWBush I live in a border state. I appreciate the need to enforce and protect our international boundaries, but this zero-tolerance policy is cruel. It is immoral. And it breaks my heart.


Venom 19th June 2018 12:59 PM

Didn't Bill Clinton start this.

AnonyMoose 19th June 2018 01:08 PM

Democrats are going about this all wrong.

If they want Republicans to stand up and start screaming about the inhumane treatment of children, then all they need to do is rename "cage" to "uterus".

You'll suddenly see millions of Republicans jumping up on their soapboxes bursting veins in their foreheads about saving all the beautiful babies.

Babbylonian 19th June 2018 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 12332683)
Didn't Bill Clinton start this.

More like Eisenhower. How far back do you want to whatabout this?

ponderingturtle 19th June 2018 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 12332702)
More like Eisenhower. How far back do you want to whatabout this?

Yea he really had a good solution to the problem, just let the elements kill them.

Skeptic Ginger 19th June 2018 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12332291)
In light of the documented history of human traffickers during the Obama era, the concern is that criminal elements will use children who are not their own to get into the country.

Stephanie Ruhle put the numbers up this morning. Less than 1% of all the families coming across the border were thought to be fake families. And the HHS number of this being up 300% was because it went from ~45 to ~150 out of more than 1,000.

It's a bogus excuse.

Skeptic Ginger 19th June 2018 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabrina (Post 12332644)
As opposed to Republicans who insist a woman's body is not her own and then utterly ignore any child birthed as a result of their draconian insistence on a status of humanity for a cluster of cells that can't even be classed as human according to virtually every legitimate scientist in the world...

In the House hearing today on the Horowitz IG report, one of the Congresswomen gave a spiel on how awful the splitting of families was rather than ask questions about the Clinton email investigation. The Republican Congressman who followed said abortion was a real tragedy, not the immigrant family separation.

Skeptic Ginger 19th June 2018 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 12332683)
Didn't Bill Clinton start this.

Reagan sowed the seeds if you want to be truthful about it. See my tl;dr post above.

Skeptic Ginger 19th June 2018 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 12332702)
More like Eisenhower. How far back do you want to whatabout this?

What did Eisenhower do? Serious question.

Babbylonian 19th June 2018 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12332757)
What did Eisenhower do? Serious question.

An offensive policy, offensively implemented, and even offensively named.

The Big Dog 19th June 2018 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12332751)
In the House hearing today on the Horowitz IG report, one of the Congresswomen gave a spiel on how awful the splitting of families was rather than ask questions about the Clinton email investigation. The Republican Congressman who followed said abortion was a real tragedy, not the immigrant family separation.

Several grandstanders got up and usurped those hearings. Cummings started bawling.

It was embarrassing

Skeptic Ginger 19th June 2018 02:28 PM

Wolf Blitzer is trying to get through to Tom Homan, acting director of ICE.

A tale of two realities:

Homan: 80% don't come back to the hearing
Blitzer: It's less than 25%
Homan: It's the parents that are the abusers
He also thinks they're all faking it, they've been taught what to say in the hearings
They should go to ports of entry
Blitzer: Apparently doesn't know they can't get in in the ports of entry.
Also he did a poor job of describing why these waves of immigrants are coming here.

The alt-white believe the immigrants are all coming because they think they get a free ride here.

Skeptic Ginger 19th June 2018 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 12332762)

Yep, that's part of the problem too. We've been an atrocious country for a very long time.
Quote:

One of the biggest problems caused by the program for the deportees was sending them to unfamiliar parts of Mexico, where they would struggle to find their way home or to continue to support their families.[38] More than 25% of apprehended Mexicans were returned to Veracruz on cargo ships, while others were transported by land to southern cities in Mexico.[39] Those apprehended were often deported without receiving the opportunity to recover their property in the United States, or to contact their families (at least, for the time being). They were often stranded without any food or employment when they were released in Mexico.[40]
But I don't think that is what is having a direct impact on the violence in Central America that these people are fleeing. Whereas a lot of the Contras ended up in the cocaine drug trade and no doubt went on to become part of the problem. Though even they would be in their 60s and 70s now so perhaps going back as far as Reagan was also a step too far as well.

Travis 19th June 2018 03:20 PM

Is this the point where we can stop pretending that conservatives have any shred of humanity in them? Is creating child concentration camps intended only for cruelty the line they cross when we write them off as human beings worth sharing a nation with?


I think we liberals need to seriously ponder those questions.

Babbylonian 19th June 2018 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12332855)
Yep, that's part of the problem too. We've been an atrocious country for a very long time.

But I don't think that is what is having a direct impact on the violence in Central America that these people are fleeing. Whereas a lot of the Contras ended up in the cocaine drug trade and no doubt went on to become part of the problem. Though even they would be in their 60s and 70s now so perhaps going back as far as Reagan was also a step too far as well.

True. I only pointed out Eisenhower because of the tendency of some to want to shift blame for policies being implemented right now. If someone else implemented them, or opened the door for them, in the past, that doesn't in any way excuse the evil being perpetrated by the monsters in power today.

logger 19th June 2018 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 12332443)
Democrats should start a bill that will put all children of illegal immigrants in the foster care of gay couples.
That should get Republicans to come around.

Now that is child abuse!

Skeptic Ginger 19th June 2018 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 12332857)
True. I only pointed out Eisenhower because of the tendency of some to want to shift blame for policies being implemented right now. If someone else implemented them, or opened the door for them, in the past, that doesn't in any way excuse the evil being perpetrated by the monsters in power today.

I wasn't talking about the policies, I was talking about why so many refugees are coming here at this time.

The racism is rampant in Trump's USA and getting worse.

logger 19th June 2018 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12332870)
I wasn't talking about the policies, I was talking about why so many refugees are coming here at this time.

The racism is rampant in Trump's USA and getting worse.

You really donít know what that word means do you. Which race is Trump hating today?

I Am The Scum 19th June 2018 04:27 PM

If we're going to be honest, this catastrophe falls squarely on the shoulders of the first Democrat ever. And that Democrat's name was Jesus.

Mumbles 19th June 2018 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 12332762)

Not the first time.

I'll bring up Native American kids being kidnapped and sent to boarding schools, since that's usually overlooked in these cases.

I Am The Scum 19th June 2018 04:30 PM

On a more serious note, for those who claim that the child detention policy is the result of human trafficking concerns: Do you really believe that for every single child being detained, there is a reasonable suspicion of human smuggling?

Minoosh 19th June 2018 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12332560)
Or: Those reports are unsubstantiated and itís not actually happening. Not saying it couldnít but I donít think we need to introduce stuff that may be an exaggeration or false.

I like to try it as a thought experiment, imaging exactly how people are supposed to get their kids. If they are put on the next transit to, say, Guatemala, what precise procedure is going to ensure family unity? Because unless it's spelled out, you know there are going to be ad hoc "solutions" that don't always work.

Maybe all family members are having their fingerprints scanned. That might help.

Tsukasa Buddha 19th June 2018 05:49 PM

Trump's masterful deal making with House Republicans:

Quote:

This member said the President did not convince him to vote for the leadership bill because he never actually said he supported it.

He just kept saying that he supports both House bills.

“Is that how you come and rally support for a bill?” this member said.

The member continued: “I don’t want to be set up again like I was with the Omnibus. He said he supported it then threw us all under the bus.”

The speech was mostly his greatest hits about how popular he is. He even reprised his line about being able to shoot someone on Fifth Avenue, indicating that’s how popular he is.
Linky.

Skeptic Ginger 19th June 2018 06:02 PM

On Fox, Corey Lewandowski mocks America separating a 10-year old girl with Down Syndrome from her family: "Womp womp"
Quote:

ZAC PETKANAS: I read today about a 10-year-old girl with Down Syndrome, who was taken from her mother and put in a cage.

COREY LEWANDOWSKI: Womp-womp.

PETKANAS: I read about a -- did you just say "womp-womp" to a 10-year-old with Down Syndrome being taken from her mother?
Video available. Lewandowski was unapologetic.

gregthehammer 19th June 2018 06:20 PM

Quote:

Trump's masterful deal making with House Republicans:

Quote:
This member said the President did not convince him to vote for the leadership bill because he never actually said he supported it.

He just kept saying that he supports both House bills.

“Is that how you come and rally support for a bill?” this member said.

The member continued: “I don’t want to be set up again like I was with the Omnibus. He said he supported it then threw us all under the bus.”

The speech was mostly his greatest hits about how popular he is. He even reprised his line about being able to shoot someone on Fifth Avenue, indicating that’s how popular he is.
Linky.
I always assumed that was a one-off remark, but if he is revisiting that bit, do you, maybe think, could he possibly have fantasies of gunning someone down? maybe we should alert the FBI to check into him, to make sure he doesn't go off the rails or something

logger 19th June 2018 06:21 PM

I wonder if anyone here is interested in these facts. Maybe the Dems are in support of the smugglers.
Quote:

“Sessions is talking to congressional members and is hoping for a legislative fix. The AG wants an immigration policy that is just, fair and enforceable. They talked about making sure that these really are the parents of these kids,” Perkins said.

He continued, “They are looking at how to use DNA tests in the field to verify they are parents and not traffickers. The reality is if American parents put their kids through what these immigrant parents have done to their kids — they would be charged with child abuse.”

http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/19/to...ons-dna-tests/

BobTheCoward 19th June 2018 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12333079)
I wonder if anyone here is interested in these facts. Maybe the Dems are in support of the smugglers.



http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/19/to...ons-dna-tests/

He doesn't need legislation to fix a problem he created.

No legislative fix for extortion.

logger 19th June 2018 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12333086)
He doesn't need legislation to fix a problem he created.

No legislative fix for extortion.

Way to miss the point Bob.

BobTheCoward 19th June 2018 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12333111)
Way to miss the point Bob.

If they don't have probable cause to suspect parentage, they shouldn't be trying to prove someone is a parent.

logger 19th June 2018 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12333116)
If they don't have probable cause to suspect parentage, they shouldn't be trying to prove someone is a parent.

Well, Iím sure those here complaining certainly agree with you!!!

Trebuchet 19th June 2018 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12333056)

The best people.

bruto 19th June 2018 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12332875)
I have no idea what youíre asking.

Well, you certainly seem to be discrediting the opinion of people who object to the policy of separating families by pointing out that some of them favor abortion. An intelligent person might question why such a connection is made and might, with some thought, be able to figure out what I was asking.

logger 19th June 2018 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 12333139)
Well, you certainly seem to be discrediting the opinion of people who object to the policy of separating families by pointing out that some of them favor abortion. An intelligent person might question why such a connection is made and might, with some thought, be able to figure out what I was asking.

An intelligent person would be able to figure it out? Lol got it!

I Am The Scum 19th June 2018 07:35 PM

Logger, maybe you can answer this question: Do you really believe that for every single child being detained, there is a reasonable suspicion of human smuggling?

logger 19th June 2018 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum (Post 12333177)
Logger, maybe you can answer this question: Do you really believe that for every single child being detained, there is a reasonable suspicion of human smuggling?

No, but that isnít the way law enforcement works. Are you going to be the border patrol agent that lets one get by?

BobTheCoward 19th June 2018 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12333179)
No, but that isnít the way law enforcement works. Are you going to be the border patrol agent that lets one get by?

Yes. This is the reason we have concepts like probable cause and reasonable suspicion.

lionking 19th June 2018 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12333123)
Well, Iím sure those here complaining certainly agree with you!!!

Have Trump's children had DNA tests? Have yours? Why not?

2-3% of US children are the product of infidelity. Are you going to tell these parents they are not "real" parents and enforce different custody arrangements? If not (and I hope not) why would you do this to immigrants?

I Am The Scum 19th June 2018 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12333179)
No, but that isnít the way law enforcement works. Are you going to be the border patrol agent that lets one get by?

That is absolutely the way law enforcement works in this country. Cops don't pull over random people because they might be in a stolen car. They don't get to confiscate people's guns because they might be murder weapons.

All I'm saying is that if a government agent is going to place a child in custody, they should have a reasonable suspicion that the child was the victim of or perpetrator of a crime. Feel free to disagree with that one if you want.

logger 19th June 2018 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 12333194)
Have Trump's children had DNA tests? Have yours? Why not?

2-3% of US children are the product of infidelity. Are you going to tell these parents they are not "real" parents and enforce different custody arrangements? If not (and I hope not) why would you do this to immigrants?

This is to identify smugglers, sheesh, do you even get that? ****!


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