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-   -   Trump immigrant family separation policy (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330118)

McHrozni 20th June 2018 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12333548)
You're confusing his effectiveness with his intelligence.

I didn't say he's highly intelligent, I'd grade him about average at best. But outright stupid? That's far too much of a simplification, and a dangerous one at that.

McHrozni

Squeegee Beckenheim 20th June 2018 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McHrozni (Post 12333564)
I didn't say he's highly intelligent, I'd grade him about average at best. But outright stupid? That's far too much of a simplification, and a dangerous one at that.

I don't think it is a "simplification", I think it's the most likely explanation for the evidence. I also think you have shown no evidence that it's untrue, but have instead conflated effectiveness and intelligence.

NoahFence 20th June 2018 05:37 AM

Corey Lewindowski regarding a Downs Syndrome child being removed from their parent's care:

"Whoop whoop"

Celebrating it.

He can die and all people like him can die for all I care. Miserably, publicly, painfully.

Sabrina 20th June 2018 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newyorkguy (Post 12333506)
I found it really astounding that some of the kids are being housed in New York. They flew them all the way from Texas to here? This is insane.

Thought: Since the news of all this broke, this has completely pushed the Mueller investigation and Paul Manafort off the front page.

Good. Might allow Mueller to get some decent investigative work done without having his every move questioned by the slavish devotees to Trump's "innocence".

SuburbanTurkey 20th June 2018 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahFence (Post 12333586)
Corey Lewindowski regarding a Downs Syndrome child being removed from their parent's care:

"Whoop whoop"

Celebrating it.

He can die and all people like him can die for all I care. Miserably, publicly, painfully.

Cruelty is the point. The right has tremendous power in our government currently. Of all the ways they could have acted to change in illegal immigration situation in this country, they have chosen overt cruelty for the sake of cruelty.

They have no interest in using their power for good governance. Just inflicting suffering on their enemies. And acquiring more power so they can inflict greater suffering on more enemies.

Seems like the left is waiting for some grand crisis to galvanize action. I doubt it will happen. Things will just continue to get steadily, incrementally worse.

Squeegee Beckenheim 20th June 2018 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahFence (Post 12333586)
Corey Lewindowski regarding a Downs Syndrome child being removed from their parent's care:

"Whoop whoop"

Celebrating it.

He can die and all people like him can die for all I care. Miserably, publicly, painfully.

It wasn't "whoop whoop" but "wamp wamp", like a sad trombone: https://twitter.com/passantino/statu...495361/video/1

NoahFence 20th June 2018 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12333603)
It wasn't "whoop whoop" but "wamp wamp", like a sad trombone: https://twitter.com/passantino/statu...495361/video/1

My post stands.

I Am The Scum 20th June 2018 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum (Post 12333212)
Goodness, I usually agree with you and I hate the current policy, but I think you're wrong here. If one's parents are taken into custody and no one else is available, then the child would be taken into custodial care.

Like I said, the fact that Sessions has decided to take every family into custody is a bad move, but I think that your description of the effect is mistaken.

Fair enough. I retract that part of the post. It's a good principle in most cases, but this situation would be an exception.

carlvs 20th June 2018 06:22 AM


Someone should remind this person that defense had been tried before - quite a few of those who made it ended up with their necks being "stretched..." ;)

Squeegee Beckenheim 20th June 2018 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahFence (Post 12333604)
My post stands.

Oh, I wasn't attempting to make a case for it being any better, just correcting a minor factual inaccuracy.

Beelzebuddy 20th June 2018 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum (Post 12333212)
Goodness, I usually agree with you and I hate the current policy, but I think you're wrong here. If one's parents are taken into custody and no one else is available, then the child would be taken into custodial care.

Like I said, the fact that Sessions has decided to take every family into custody is a bad move, but I think that your description of the effect is mistaken.

You know that Family Detention Centers are a thing, right? Our society already has the jail technology to detain people without literally ripping babes from their mothers' breasts. There's no need at all to build separate centers for children and adults when you could build centers to keep them together, save unnecessary cruelty.

uke2se 20th June 2018 06:37 AM

Might be time for some armed groups to get together and plan a rescue for these children unless congress can stop the cruelty.

BobTheCoward 20th June 2018 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12333644)
Might be time for some armed groups to get together and plan a rescue for these children unless congress can stop the cruelty.

It is legal cruelty based on properly enacted laws. Armed groups shouldn't overturn a democratic process.

sylvan8798 20th June 2018 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12333436)
And it feeds in to the question I asked right at the start of this thread, and which nobody has been able to answer - who actually benefits from this policy? How does it make America safer, or better? It seems that the reason nobody who is defending this policy can answer those questions is because the answers are "nobody" and "it doesn't", respectively.

It makes the Trumpers feel good, arguably a "benefit" for them. I have a feeling the "private prison" business is thriving as well.

If you haven't seen Trump's speech to the independent business group NFIB yesterday, it's worth checking out the first half.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfW1pHC2GuA

I have a sick feeling about this getting worse instead of better.

Squeegee Beckenheim 20th June 2018 06:54 AM

Facebook campaign to help reunite these families aims to raise $1,500, but instead raises $7.5m in 4 days

quadraginta 20th June 2018 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12331978)
https://twitter.com/CBSThisMorning/s...95502379077637

Quote:

This just in from @davidbegnaud: Border Patrol has reached out to @cbsthismorning and said they are "very uncomfortable" with the use of the word cages. They say it's not inaccurate and added that they may be cages but people are not being treated like animals.


Of course they aren't.

There are actual laws to prevent the inhumane treatment of animals.

Brown refugees, not so much.

Beelzebuddy 20th June 2018 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12333646)
It is legal cruelty based on properly enacted laws. Armed groups shouldn't overturn a democratic process.

Out of curiosity, at what point in the trajectory of Nazi Germany would you say that armed groups should have overturned their democratic processes?

quadraginta 20th June 2018 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12333079)
I wonder if anyone here is interested in these facts. Maybe the Dems are in support of the smugglers.
Quote:

“Sessions is talking to congressional members and is hoping for a legislative fix. The AG wants an immigration policy that is just, fair and enforceable. They talked about making sure that these really are the parents of these kids,” Perkins said.

He continued, “They are looking at how to use DNA tests in the field to verify they are parents and not traffickers. The reality is if American parents put their kids through what these immigrant parents have done to their kids — they would be charged with child abuse.”

http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/19/to...ons-dna-tests/


Interesting.

We can't even keep up with DNA testing rape kits to help catch known violent criminals. There are backlogs in some jurisdictions going back years if not decades.

Where is the money and the will to DNA catalog thousands of refugee families that the government has already shown it cares nothing for going to come from?

blutoski 20th June 2018 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy (Post 12333657)
Out of curiosity, at what point in the trajectory of Nazi Germany would you say that armed groups should have overturned their democratic processes?

Matt Bors has a good one on this topic:

[Defender of Democracy]

quadraginta 20th June 2018 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum (Post 12332188)
On the surface, it seems reasonable. I'm not sure whether the fourteen day provision is a good one. It might require more time to evaluate a case fairly.


Assumes facts not in evidence.

Why do you think they will bother to do anything fairly? Is there something about their behavior so far relating to this new policy which suggests to you that they care about "fairly".

quadraginta 20th June 2018 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12332217)
Sure, but this is still the Trump administration's fault for electing to use cruel laws. Let's never ever forget that.


People keep saying stuff like this.

It isn't a matter of cruel laws. It is a matter of consciously choosing to apply laws in the cruelest way possible.

There is nothing about this new policy of enforcement which is mandated by existing laws. It is only the way the Trump administration has chosen to exercise their enforcement of those laws.

Other administrations have managed to enforce the same laws equally as well without conscious, premeditated cruelty. We haven't needed to forcefully separate thousands of children from their families before. There is no need to now.

It is simply what the Trump administration wants to do.

Stacko 20th June 2018 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy (Post 12333643)
You know that Family Detention Centers are a thing, right? Our society already has the jail technology to detain people without literally ripping babes from their mothers' breasts. There's no need at all to build separate centers for children and adults when you could build centers to keep them together, save unnecessary cruelty.

Family Detention Centers are also cheaper than deliberately committing child abuse.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncn...mpression=true

BobTheCoward 20th June 2018 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy (Post 12333657)
Out of curiosity, at what point in the trajectory of Nazi Germany would you say that armed groups should have overturned their democratic processes?

I have no opinion on that.

quadraginta 20th June 2018 07:12 AM


Which is wrong of course. Or in Sessions case, probably an intentional lie.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

uke2se 20th June 2018 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12333665)
People keep saying stuff like this.

It isn't a matter of cruel laws. It is a matter of consciously choosing to apply laws in the cruelest way possible.

There is nothing about this new policy of enforcement which is mandated by existing laws. It is only the way the Trump administration has chosen to exercise their enforcement of those laws.

Other administrations have managed to enforce the same laws equally as well without conscious, premeditated cruelty. We haven't needed to forcefully separate thousands of children from their families before. There is no need to now.

It is simply what the Trump administration wants to do.

Fair enough. I was more interested in keeping the blame where it belongs.

This is on the Trump administration and those supporting it.

quadraginta 20th June 2018 07:13 AM


"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Squeegee Beckenheim 20th June 2018 07:13 AM

https://twitter.com/SteveSchmidtSES/...25231004004352

Quote:

29 years and nine months ago I registered to vote and became a member of The Republican Party which was founded in 1854 to oppose slavery and stand for the dignity of human life. Today I renounce my membership in the Republican Party. It is fully the party of Trump.
Schmidt was a campaign strategist for George W. Bush, Arnold Schwarzenneger, and senior campaign strategist for John McCain.

BobTheCoward 20th June 2018 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12333678)
https://twitter.com/SteveSchmidtSES/...25231004004352



Schmidt was a campaign strategist for George W. Bush, Arnold Schwarzenneger, and senior campaign strategist for John McCain.

It doesn't help that they are regarded as bad republicans.

kookbreaker 20th June 2018 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12333681)
It doesn't help that they are regarded as bad republicans.

Sure are a lot of those lately.

phiwum 20th June 2018 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy (Post 12333643)
You know that Family Detention Centers are a thing, right? Our society already has the jail technology to detain people without literally ripping babes from their mothers' breasts. There's no need at all to build separate centers for children and adults when you could build centers to keep them together, save unnecessary cruelty.

Yes, I'd be in favor of that.

Sessions has been explicit that removal of children is a deterrent. That's so despicable that even Trump, morally impaired as he is, pretends that this is due to the Democrats.

The administration policy is intentionally cruel. No doubt.

Squeegee Beckenheim 20th June 2018 07:25 AM

https://twitter.com/AshaRangappa_/st...27001302757376

Quote:

Former Border Patrol agent: “It’s very rare that anybody ever crosses the border with somebody else’s child. Kids are usually with an aunt or relative or something like that. [The administration] is misleading people and flat-out lying.”
Article linked in the tweet.

phiwum 20th June 2018 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12333661)
Assumes facts not in evidence.

Why do you think they will bother to do anything fairly? Is there something about their behavior so far relating to this new policy which suggests to you that they care about "fairly".

I was evaluating the bill on its own terms, without considering its author.

Usually, that is the right thing to do.

Cain 20th June 2018 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahFence (Post 12333586)
Corey Lewindowski regarding a Downs Syndrome child being removed from their parent's care:

"Whoop whoop"

Celebrating it.

He can die and all people like him can die for all I care. Miserably, publicly, painfully.

I'm not trying to make excuses, and I'm not a doctor, but I'd say he suffers from being a ******* asshat.

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12333644)
Might be time for some armed groups to get together and plan a rescue for these children unless congress can stop the cruelty.

:eye-poppi

The Don 20th June 2018 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kookbreaker (Post 12333684)
Sure are a lot of those lately.

Sadly, nowhere near enough in positions of influence and/or power and a distinct lack of them at the "pointy end" of the House and Senate.

Even those who do make the occasional whimper of opposition soon fall back into like when an actual vote is called for or the Democratic Party is looking for someone to sign up to a bill. :mad:

IMO they are either deplorable (if they fully support the Trump Administration in it's - so far successful - attempts to undermine US democracy) and/or abject cowards (if they have reservations but refuse to act because they fear being primaried).

The Don 20th June 2018 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum (Post 12333690)
The administration policy is intentionally cruel. No doubt.

The trouble is that enough of the population are positively in favour of it (the 40% who continue to support the Trump Administration) that if anything it is going to enhance his approval ratings.

ponderingturtle 20th June 2018 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12333672)
Which is wrong of course. Or in Sessions case, probably an intentional lie.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Looking forward to the celebrations of turning away the jews on the St Louis next year. That should be an easy sell in this administration.

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 07:45 AM

Peter Fonda urged that Barron Trump be taken from his family and put in a cage with pedophiles. He also urged people to surround the schools of ICE employees' children.

A poster here urged that armed groups storm the centers where the children are being held.

Darat 20th June 2018 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12333658)
Interesting.

We can't even keep up with DNA testing rape kits to help catch known violent criminals. There are backlogs in some jurisdictions going back years if not decades.

Where is the money and the will to DNA catalog thousands of refugee families that the government has already shown it cares nothing for going to come from?

As long as they get A kid back does it really matter which one - you can't tell them apart!

logger 20th June 2018 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333716)
Peter Fonda urged that Barron Trump be taken from his family and put in a cage with pedophiles. He also urged people to surround the schools of ICE employees' children.

A poster here urged that armed groups storm the centers where the children are being held.

Ahh, the emotional crazy left.


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