International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   USA Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Trump immigrant family separation policy (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330118)

NoahFence 20th June 2018 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333716)
Peter Fonda urged that Barron Trump be taken from his family and put in a cage with pedophiles. He also urged people to surround the schools of ICE employees' children.

A poster here urged that armed groups storm the centers where the children are being held.

Tree of liberty and all.

Alternatively we could be a nation governed by compassion and decency.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Darat 20th June 2018 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12333678)
https://twitter.com/SteveSchmidtSES/...25231004004352



Schmidt was a campaign strategist for George W. Bush, Arnold Schwarzenneger, and senior campaign strategist for John McCain.

RINO

The Don 20th June 2018 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333716)
Peter Fonda urged that Barron Trump be taken from his family and put in a cage with pedophiles. He also urged people to surround the schools of ICE employees' children.

A poster here urged that armed groups storm the centers where the children are being held.

Two people who don't have any real power or influence say some stupid things.....

Meanwhile the Trump Administration has implemented a policy of taking children from their parents and locking them in cages.

One of these things is not like the other IMO.

logger 20th June 2018 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12333658)
Interesting.

We can't even keep up with DNA testing rape kits to help catch known violent criminals. There are backlogs in some jurisdictions going back years if not decades.

Where is the money and the will to DNA catalog thousands of refugee families that the government has already shown it cares nothing for going to come from?

That is what DHS wants to do, I have no idea how they’ll get something so simple done.

Squeegee Beckenheim 20th June 2018 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333716)
Peter Fonda urged that Barron Trump be taken from his family and put in a cage with pedophiles. He also urged people to surround the schools of ICE employees' children.

A poster here urged that armed groups storm the centers where the children are being held.

You're a Catholic, right? Did you see the earlier post where the Pope came out as against this policy? How do you feel about that?

ponderingturtle 20th June 2018 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12333728)
Two people who don't have any real power or influence say some stupid things.....

Meanwhile the Trump Administration has implemented a policy of taking children from their parents and locking them in cages.

One of these things is not like the other IMO.

And honestly how often do people think Trump interacts with Baron? Melania has spoken out against it.

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12333728)
Two people who don't have any real power or influence say some stupid things.....

Meanwhile the Trump Administration has implemented a policy of taking children from their parents and locking them in cages.

One of these things is not like the other IMO.

You don't really believe that those are the only two people exhorting violence on this issue, do you? It is not.

BobTheCoward 20th June 2018 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333739)
You don't really believe that those are the only two people exhorting violence on this issue, do you? It is not.

People have their lives threatened for bad movie reviews. Pointing out people encouraging violence on an issue doesn't say anything about the issue.

The Don 20th June 2018 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333739)
You don't really believe that those are the only two people exhorting violence on this issue, do you? It is not.

Are any of them, individually or collectively, anywhere near as powerful or influential as the President of the USA and his Administration ?

I'm not excusing their behaviours - blowhards like that do more harm than good IMO - but IMO there's a big difference between mouthing off on an insignificant web forum and actually putting children in cages - YMMV.

The Great Zaganza 20th June 2018 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blutoski (Post 12333659)
Matt Bors has a good one on this topic:

[Defender of Democracy]

unfortunately all too true.

uke2se 20th June 2018 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12333728)
Two people who don't have any real power or influence say some stupid things.....

Meanwhile the Trump Administration has implemented a policy of taking children from their parents and locking them in cages.

One of these things is not like the other IMO.

I don't think what I said is stupid. Sometimes it's necessary to take up arms to defend freedom and Democracy against Fascism and tyranny. If things keep progressing as they are, we will soon be in a situation where the first shot will count for a lot.

ETA: I also think you should start considering ignoring the fascism-enablers on this forum. Let's discuss the problem without their constant bleeting.

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12333746)
Are any of them, individually or collectively, anywhere near as powerful or influential as the President of the USA and his Administration ?

I'm not excusing their behaviours - blowhards like that do more harm than good IMO - but IMO there's a big difference between mouthing off on an insignificant web forum and actually putting children in cages - YMMV.

Fonda did it on twitter and is not what one would call inconsequential.

slyjoe 20th June 2018 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333772)
Fonda did it on twitter and is not what one would call inconsequential.

As soon as a consequence comes from his tweet let us know.

Parsman 20th June 2018 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333772)
Fonda did it on twitter and is not what one would call inconsequential.

Never mind his lack of political power, what was the last good movie Peter Fonda starred in? He isn't even very consequential as an actor, let alone as a political spokesman.

pgwenthold 20th June 2018 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12333750)
I don't think what I said is stupid. Sometimes it's necessary to take up arms to defend freedom and Democracy against Fascism and tyranny..

Note how all the 2nd amendmenters love to talk about how guns are important to fight the tyranny of the government. But when someone on the left starts talking about actually fighting the tyranny of the government, then all of a sudden it's treason and out of line.

What if instead of BLM we had black people shooting cops, and they did it on the grounds of fighting tyranny? Basically, a black person gets stopped and shoots first when they felt threatened. You think republicans would be supporting their 2nd amendment rights to fight the tyranny of government? What if black people created a militia to take out bad cops?

I want to know, what exactly do the 2nd amendment consider to be tyranny that justifies the use of weapons against the government?

The Don 20th June 2018 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333772)
Fonda did it on twitter and is not what one would call inconsequential.

Moderately successful actor with 49k followers really isn't in the same ballpark influencewise as the leader of the free world :rolleyes:

The Don 20th June 2018 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 12333779)
I want to know, what exactly do the 2nd amendment consider to be tyranny that justifies the use of weapons against the government?

A branch of government attempting to take their guns or curtail their freedom in any significant way ?

Armitage72 20th June 2018 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 12333779)
What if instead of BLM we had black people shooting cops, and they did it on the grounds of fighting tyranny? Basically, a black person gets stopped and shoots first when they felt threatened. You think republicans would be supporting their 2nd amendment rights to fight the tyranny of government? What if black people created a militia to take out bad cops?


There would likely have been calls for restrictions on gun possession, just like when the NRA supported an open carry ban in California in 1967 because black people were carrying guns to protect themselves from the police.

Border Reiver 20th June 2018 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12333729)
That is what DHS wants to do, I have no idea how they’ll get something so simple done.

Bob's Discount DNA Testing will see the opportunity and bid for the contract, claiming the company can do it for $500/test. After winning the contract the company will use this contract to go to their bank to demonstrate that he will be able to pay back the financing for the expansion to do more than 2 tests/day. Six months later they will have the equipment to run a hundred tests/day, but only if they can get a couple more employees to run the machines, resulting in overruns that are passed onto the Trump administration. After a year, they will finally start getting around to the backlog...

Unfortunately, while Bob is getting rich the lab techs are faced with the dilemma of rushing the tests or failing to meet quota, and the only geneticist on staff who can interpret the results has had to quit due to stress from overwork.

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12333782)
Moderately successful actor with 49k followers really isn't in the same ballpark influencewise as the leader of the free world :rolleyes:

I am certain that stating that the person calling for violence against ICE employees' children only has 49,000 followers is not really all that strong of an argument against exhortations of violence, because I am absolutely certain that those ICE employees are not in the same ballpark influence wise as him.

LSSBB 20th June 2018 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12333783)
A branch of government attempting to take their guns or curtail their freedom in any significant way ?

Yeah, but then they come smack up against the part of the Bible that Sessions quoted, that says they need to obey their government.

Unless they're not fundamentalist Christians. Then all ok.

Skeptic Ginger 20th June 2018 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newyorkguy (Post 12333506)
...
Thought: Since the news of all this broke, this has completely pushed the Mueller investigation and Paul Manafort off the front page.

Except on Fox News where 'the whole Mueller investigation is tainted' is the main topic being covered.

The Don 20th June 2018 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSSBB (Post 12333799)
Yeah, but then they come smack up against the part of the Bible that Sessions quoted, that says they need to obey their government.

Unless they're not fundamentalist Christians. Then all ok.

Ah, but a government that tried to take away their guns or curtail their freedom in any significant way cannot be a righteous Christian government and therefore they are perfectly entitled to resist that government in the same way that Noah resisted against the Babylonians* ;)


* - see, my knowledge of The Bible is just as good as theirs

Lithrael 20th June 2018 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 12333779)
I want to know, what exactly do the 2nd amendment consider to be tyranny that justifies the use of weapons against the government?

White guys being told they can’t graze their cows on federal land got a lot of sympathy for going 2a v government about things iirc.

Skeptic Ginger 20th June 2018 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahFence (Post 12333604)
My post stands.

Lewandowski wasn't "celebrating" it, he was being sarcastic about having empathy.

Segnosaur 20th June 2018 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig4 (Post 12333370)
That's a bit of a cheap shot at conservatives. Some of the strongest condemnations of this policy have come from conservatives. This is a question of being loyal to the nation and our values or not. You can be loyal to our values and be conservative. You cannot be loyal to this country and support this president and his policies.

Its always amazing to hear conservatives, republicans and the religious right decrying the forced separation, as if they had nothing to do with it.

Well, guess what... to any such conservative....even though you are criticizing Trump for the policy, YOU ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE.

Trump voters put their X next to Trump's name on the ballot, even though he used such race-baiting tactics as linking "Mexicans" with "Rapists". People who worked on his campaign, or publically supported him did so even though they knew Trump's supporters also included Arpaio (who also is a racist). Evangelical Christians gave Trump a "mulligan" over his infidelities, even though he has a long history of lying and running scams (such as Trump U.) Republicans in the senate voted to confirm Sessions, and congress has been quite happy to support Trump politically time and time again. (Not to mention their long-running attempts to destroy decorum in American politics by constant opposition to Obama or useless investigations into Bengazi.)

What did they think would happen?

Conservatives are being linked to the child separation policy because THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE, regardless of how much they try to distance themselves from the end result.

Now, does that mean that EVERY conservative is responsible? Well, maybe not... perhaps there may be one or 2 who have been living in a cave for the past decade or 2 who have avoided politics. But for anyone who has voted republican (either for Trump, or for other republican politicians), who has publically supported Trump, donated to the republican party or their PACs, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE. The separation of children from their parents is a value that you find acceptable, because you fed the monster that gave birth to the beast.

LSSBB 20th June 2018 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 12333822)
Its always amazing to hear conservatives, republicans and the religious right decrying the forced separation, as if they had nothing to do with it.

Well, guess what... to any such conservative....even though you are criticizing Trump for the policy, YOU ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE.

Trump voters put their X next to Trump's name on the ballot, even though he used such race-baiting tactics as linking "Mexicans" with "Rapists". People who worked on his campaign, or publically supported him did so even though they knew Trump's supporters also included Arpaio (who also is a racist). Evangelical Christians gave Trump a "mulligan" over his infidelities, even though he has a long history of lying and running scams (such as Trump U.) Republicans in the senate voted to confirm Sessions, and congress has been quite happy to support Trump politically time and time again. (Not to mention their long-running attempts to destroy decorum in American politics by constant opposition to Obama or useless investigations into Bengazi.)

What did they think would happen?

Conservatives are being linked to the child separation policy because THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE, regardless of how much they try to distance themselves from the end result.

Now, does that mean that EVERY conservative is responsible? Well, maybe not... perhaps there may be one or 2 who have been living in a cave for the past decade or 2 who have avoided politics. But for anyone who has voted republican (either for Trump, or for other republican politicians), who has publically supported Trump, donated to the republican party or their PACs, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE. The separation of children from their parents is a value that you find acceptable, because you fed the monster that gave birth to the beast.

Not every conservative voted for Trump. Some may not have voted for President, and some may have voted for Gary Johnson (or Jill Stein, probably by accident)

Squeegee Beckenheim 20th June 2018 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333789)
I am certain that stating that the person calling for violence against ICE employees' children only has 49,000 followers is not really all that strong of an argument against exhortations of violence, because I am absolutely certain that those ICE employees are not in the same ballpark influence wise as him.

Besides, they're only following orders.

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12333827)
Besides, they're only following orders.

The ICE employees' children are?

Ok.

Tsukasa Buddha 20th June 2018 09:22 AM

https://apnews.com/1dafadd6fee4447cadd4a0179553026e

Quote:

Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen has drafted an executive action for President Donald Trump that would direct her department to keep families together after they are detained crossing the border illegally. She was at the White House where Trump told reporters he would be “signing something” shortly.
She realizes Congress might not pass what Trump wants.

Trump will attend a rally tonight saying he ended the Democrat's horrible policy.

Stacko 20th June 2018 09:22 AM

https://mobile.twitter.com/christina...64857018527745

Daft Taft intends to end exacerbation of crisis he created.

Note: Do not congratulate.

uke2se 20th June 2018 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha (Post 12333831)
https://apnews.com/1dafadd6fee4447cadd4a0179553026e



She realizes Congress might not pass what Trump wants.

Trump will attend a rally tonight saying he ended the Democrat's horrible policy.

So he's giving up? What a weakling.

Good for the children tho.

Segnosaur 20th June 2018 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSSBB (Post 12333826)
Not every conservative voted for Trump. Some may not have voted for President, and some may have voted for Gary Johnson (or Jill Stein, probably by accident)

Even if they didn't specifically vote for Trump, they didn't vote to STOP him either when they had the chance. And chances are even if they didn't vote for Trump, they probably voted for a republican congressman, who have done their best to confirm Trump's nominations (like Sessions) and support him politically. So no, they don't automatically get a free pass just because they didn't vote for Trump himself.

And where exactly were they during the previous decade when the republicans were doing their best to gerrymander and supress votes to disenfranchise minority voters? Where were they when the republican congress was talking about how their only job was to oppose Obama? Where were they when congress was having yet more pointless investigations into Bengazi? They (meaning Republican voters) helped create the environment that gave rise to Trump (and ultimately the child separation policy), even if they voted for Johnson or Stein in the last election.

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 09:43 AM

NEW: President’s Exec Order will continue zero-tolerance policy on illegal border crossings, but allow families to remain together.

Skeptic Ginger 20th June 2018 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum (Post 12333690)
Yes, I'd be in favor of that.

Sessions has been explicit that removal of children is a deterrent. That's so despicable that even Trump, morally impaired as he is, pretends that this is due to the Democrats.

The administration policy is intentionally cruel. No doubt.

John Kelly said it was a deterrent as well.

These guys went out there without a plan, they sat around in a room and came up with the deterrent idea. Sessions and Kelly were first on the line repeating that idea. It did not go over well. Next came Trump blaming the Democrats. That did not go over well. Then they all tried to blame the parents, make the parents look like irresponsible criminals adding later the criminal parents were using kids to get better treatment seeking asylum. That did not go over well.

The bigotry reeks.

You can see this poorly planned, very bad idea being unfolding in a haphazard way.

Gee, it looked so good in that room full of racists when they came up with the idea. :mad:

Now they have to face the fact it looks really really bad for the GOP going into the midterms. Whoops.

Trump Says He Will Sign Order To End Family Separations
Quote:

"We're going to keep families together but we still have to maintain toughness or our country will be overrun by people, by crime, by all of the things that we don't stand for and that we don't want," Trump said.
Thought he couldn't do that. :rolleyes:


Quote:

"We're going to keep families together but we still have to maintain toughness or our country will be overrun by people, by crime, by all of the things that we don't stand for and that we don't want," Trump said.
Big fat lie unless you translate that to mean brown people.

Captain_Swoop 20th June 2018 09:51 AM

Just days ago Trump was specific, he said that he couldn't sign an executive order to stop families from being separated.

I wonder what changed?

logger 20th June 2018 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333847)
NEW: President’s Exec Order will continue zero-tolerance policy on illegal border crossings, but allow families to remain together.

It’ll be fun to watch what happens now.

Captain_Swoop 20th June 2018 09:54 AM

Who is responsible for re-uniting the children already in cages with their parents?

quadraginta 20th June 2018 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12333729)
That is what DHS wants to do, I have no idea how they’ll get something so simple done.


That isn't surprising.

I'm sure they don't either.

If it was "so simple" we wouldn't have a massive backlog of rape kits and other DNA evidence (of real, violent crimes) waiting to be tested.

Segnosaur 20th June 2018 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 12333854)
Just days ago Trump was specific, he said that he couldn't sign an executive order to stop families from being separated.
I wonder what changed?

Trump never said that. Its fake news Alternative facts.

/sarcasm


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-19, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.