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-   -   Trump immigrant family separation policy (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330118)

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slyjoe (Post 12333775)
As soon as a consequence comes from his tweet let us know.

Twitter took down the threats and the White House has announced that FLOTUS Office has notified the Secret Service of the threats.

Really unclear what the children of the rank and file ICE employees are going to do as the result of the threats, however.

quadraginta 20th June 2018 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333863)
Twitter took down the threats and the White House has announced that FLOTUS Office has notified the Secret Service of the threats.

Really unclear what the children of the rank and file ICE employees are going to do as the result of the threats, however.


They could go to summer camp.

I understand there are some real budget programs out there.

quadraginta 20th June 2018 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum (Post 12333695)
I was evaluating the bill on its own terms, without considering its author.

Usually, that is the right thing to do.


Does "usually" include in this evaluation a Trump administration, a GOP run Congress full of Trump sycophants, and a judiciary being stuffed with Trumpist, far right-wingnut ideologues?

NoahFence 20th June 2018 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12333782)
Moderately successful actor with 49k followers really isn't in the same ballpark influencewise as the leader of the free world :rolleyes:

It's the same if your goal is to make a really, really stupid argument.

quadraginta 20th June 2018 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithrael (Post 12333803)
White guys being told they canít graze their cows for free on federal land that everyone else pays to use got a lot of sympathy for going 2a v government about things iirc.


FTFY.

I Am The Scum 20th June 2018 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12333857)
Itíll be fun to watch what happens now.

Trump and his supporters admitting they got this one wrong? Yeah, I'll enjoy it.

I'm kidding, of course. They never do this.

LSSBB 20th June 2018 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 12333844)
Even if they didn't specifically vote for Trump, they didn't vote to STOP him either when they had the chance. And chances are even if they didn't vote for Trump, they probably voted for a republican congressman, who have done their best to confirm Trump's nominations (like Sessions) and support him politically. So no, they don't automatically get a free pass just because they didn't vote for Trump himself.

And where exactly were they during the previous decade when the republicans were doing their best to gerrymander and supress votes to disenfranchise minority voters? Where were they when the republican congress was talking about how their only job was to oppose Obama? Where were they when congress was having yet more pointless investigations into Bengazi? They (meaning Republican voters) helped create the environment that gave rise to Trump (and ultimately the child separation policy), even if they voted for Johnson or Stein in the last election.

I voted for Gary Johnson, in Illinois. There is no way the election would be close in Illinois. I detested and still detest Trump. I have been very vocal in opposing Trump, not only here but on Facebook. I consider myself a conservative - and so I could not in good conscience to who I thought would be best for America, vote for Hillary (especially in a state where I feel the Democratic Party is a machine geared to help itself and the state be damned), and it didn't matter for my vote anyway.

Please tell me again how I am responsible for Trump and his policies

uke2se 20th June 2018 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSSBB (Post 12333879)
I voted for Gary Johnson, in Illinois. There is no way the election would be close in Illinois. I detested and still detest Trump. I have been very vocal in opposing Trump, not only here but on Facebook. I consider myself a conservative - and so I could not in good conscience to who I thought would be best for America, vote for Hillary (especially in a state where I feel the Democratic Party is a machine geared to help itself and the state be damned), and it didn't matter for my vote anyway.

Please tell me again how I am responsible for Trump and his policies

Who did you vote for for congress?

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12333868)
They could go to summer camp.

I understand there are some real budget programs out there.

Not sure that is going to mitigate the threats from the left against the children of rank and file ice employees.

Segnosaur 20th June 2018 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSSBB (Post 12333879)
I voted for Gary Johnson, in Illinois. There is no way the election would be close in Illinois. I detested and still detest Trump. I have been very vocal in opposing Trump, not only here but on Facebook. I consider myself a conservative - and so I could not in good conscience to who I thought would be best for America, vote for Hillary (especially in a state where I feel the Democratic Party is a machine geared to help itself and the state be damned), and it didn't matter for my vote anyway.

Please tell me again how I am responsible for Trump and his policies

I thought I pretty much explained things...

Did you vote for a republican congress critter (the ones who are falling lock-step to support Trump, even if they are vocal about the child separation policy)? Did you vote republican in the past, when the party was running around gerrymandering and engaging in voter suppression?

Ok, you didn't like Clinton... so you looked at the 2 options, and decided that it would be better for a racist Orangutan to be in power over a person who is, for the most part, relatively moderate and, well, not a racist orangutan.

And even if your vote didn't factor in to the final election result, you should have voted for her for no other reason than the symbolic "Not everyone in the U.S. wants a racist nut-bag in power and will do whatever we can to stop him".

I'm not American; I'm actually Canadian. However, I tend to vote conservative in our own federal elections. If I were in the states, at one point I might have favored the republican party. (Heck, I even defended George W. Bush at times). But those days are long gone, eliminated by the constant hypocracy, underhanded tactics, integration with the evangelical movement and the NRA, and underlying racism that seems to be endemic with the Republican party of today. I hope they get wiped out in the next few elections and spend a generation in the political wilderness so that they can learn that power for power's sake is not a virtue.

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahFence (Post 12333875)
It's the same if your goal is to make a really, really stupid argument.

hey we agree! comparing fonda to trump is really a bad argument, indeed!

particularly where fonda's threats were against Barron Trump and also directed at ice rank and file employee children.

ponderingturtle 20th June 2018 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSSBB (Post 12333879)
I voted for Gary Johnson, in Illinois. There is no way the election would be close in Illinois. I detested and still detest Trump. I have been very vocal in opposing Trump, not only here but on Facebook. I consider myself a conservative - and so I could not in good conscience to who I thought would be best for America, vote for Hillary (especially in a state where I feel the Democratic Party is a machine geared to help itself and the state be damned), and it didn't matter for my vote anyway.

Please tell me again how I am responsible for Trump and his policies

So you really think Johnson would have made the best leader?

Shalamar 20th June 2018 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333887)
hey we agree! comparing fonda to trump is really a bad argument, indeed!

particularly where fonda's threats were against Barron Trump and also directed at ice rank and file employee children.

Womp Womp

NoahFence 20th June 2018 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333884)
Not sure that is going to mitigate the threats from the left against the children of rank and file ice employees.

:rolleyes:

Segnosaur 20th June 2018 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 12333896)
So you really think Johnson would have made the best leader?

Even if he though Johnson would be the best leader, there was no chance he could have won the election, which in the states typically comes down to Democrat vs. Republican.

So, a vote for Johnson was (indirectly) a vote that favored Trump.

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 10:46 AM

"I'm going to find the congressman's kids and kill them," an intern who took the call told the FBI, according to a federal complaint filed in U.S. District Court. "If you are going to separate kids at the border, I'm going to kill his kids."

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/po...ren/716134002/

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 12333903)
Even if he though Johnson would be the best leader, there was no chance he could have won the election, which in the states typically comes down to Democrat vs. Republican.

So, a vote for Johnson was (indirectly) a vote that favored Trump.

No it wasn't for reasons he explained in his post. Please refer to Article II Section 1 of the US Constitution

Segnosaur 20th June 2018 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333904)
"I'm going to find the congressman's kids and kill them," an intern who took the call told the FBI, according to a federal complaint filed in U.S. District Court. "If you are going to separate kids at the border, I'm going to kill his kids."

After that, he called them sub human mongrels and told them to suck on his machine gun.

dudalb 20th June 2018 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 12333885)
I thought I pretty much explained things...

Did you vote for a republican congress critter (the ones who are falling lock-step to support Trump, even if they are vocal about the child separation policy)? Did you vote republican in the past, when the party was running around gerrymandering and engaging in voter suppression?

Ok, you didn't like Clinton... so you looked at the 2 options, and decided that it would be better for a racist Orangutan to be in power over a person who is, for the most part, relatively moderate and, well, not a racist orangutan.

And even if your vote didn't factor in to the final election result, you should have voted for her for no other reason than the symbolic "Not everyone in the U.S. wants a racist nut-bag in power and will do whatever we can to stop him".

I'm not American; I'm actually Canadian. However, I tend to vote conservative in our own federal elections. If I were in the states, at one point I might have favored the republican party. (Heck, I even defended George W. Bush at times). But those days are long gone, eliminated by the constant hypocracy, underhanded tactics, integration with the evangelical movement and the NRA, and underlying racism that seems to be endemic with the Republican party of today. I hope they get wiped out in the next few elections and spend a generation in the political wilderness so that they can learn that power for power's sake is not a virtue.

I voted for Hillary but gave serioius consideration to voting for Johnson simply because I hated Trump with a passion, but simply did not agree with a lot of Hilary's policies.
But to be fair, voting for Johnson did seem to be a "safe" protest vote because Hilary was heavily favored to win.
And I think you are not being fair, a number of people thought there would be more resistence to Trump from Republicans in Congress then their has been.
I will give people a pass for 2016, but not for 2018. I am voting a straight Democratic ticket.....and I HATE,HATE,HATE having to do that.

NoahFence 20th June 2018 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333887)
hey we agree! comparing fonda to trump is really a bad argument, indeed!

particularly where fonda's threats were against Barron Trump and also directed at ice rank and file employee children.

Yet another response that has nothing to do with what you quoted.

Care to try again, this time with more honesty? The point was comparing the influence of Fonda vs. Trump.

You can find it yourself by scrolling up a bit.

NoahFence 20th June 2018 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333904)
"I'm going to find the congressman's kids and kill them," an intern who took the call told the FBI, according to a federal complaint filed in U.S. District Court. "If you are going to separate kids at the border, I'm going to kill his kids."

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/po...ren/716134002/

Your faux outrage is adorable.

Shalamar 20th June 2018 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahFence (Post 12333913)
Your faux outrage is adorable.

The appropriate response to that is 'womp womp'.

dudalb 20th June 2018 10:55 AM

And our Trump fanboys try to defend the indefensible.

It's either from blind worship of Trump or they think people with Brown Skins are not really human.

NoahFence 20th June 2018 10:57 AM

both

dudalb 20th June 2018 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 12333779)
Note how all the 2nd amendmenters love to talk about how guns are important to fight the tyranny of the government. But when someone on the left starts talking about actually fighting the tyranny of the government, then all of a sudden it's treason and out of line.

What if instead of BLM we had black people shooting cops, and they did it on the grounds of fighting tyranny? Basically, a black person gets stopped and shoots first when they felt threatened. You think republicans would be supporting their 2nd amendment rights to fight the tyranny of government? What if black people created a militia to take out bad cops?

I want to know, what exactly do the 2nd amendment consider to be tyranny that justifies the use of weapons against the government?

I would say if there is no hope of realistacllly peaceable and legally replacing a government in power, then armed resistence becomes a morally justified course of action.

SuburbanTurkey 20th June 2018 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12333909)
I am voting a straight Democratic ticket.....and I HATE,HATE,HATE having to do that.

Yeah, there's really no place for traditional conservatives anymore. The radical right has taken over the Republican party and it must be soundly defeated. I would feel bad for classic conservatives, but they stood by idle while this cancer spread through their party. They were plenty happy with all the votes the dogwhistle politics brought in, so they own this disaster.

There's been a lot of of apathy in American politics, and lord knows that Hillary was a terrible choice to crack through that apathy. But we've been given an abject lesson in the importance of elections. Elections matter, voting matters.

I held my nose and pulled the lever for Hillary in '16. I'll pull the lever ecstatically for any D in '18 so long as they are anti-Trump. The R's are dead to me until they fully reckon with what they did to us.

AnonyMoose 20th June 2018 11:08 AM

Trump: Zero tolerance! No exceptions! Lock them up!

Trumpettes: Trump's our hero!





Trump: Changed my mind. Separating babies from their parents is mean, we need some exceptions.

Trumpettes: Trump's our hero!

The_Animus 20th June 2018 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 12333903)
Even if he though Johnson would be the best leader, there was no chance he could have won the election, which in the states typically comes down to Democrat vs. Republican.

So, a vote for Johnson was (indirectly) a vote that favored Trump.

This line of thinking needs to be covered in cement and dropped in the deepest part of the ocean.

Over and over I've seen Clinton supporters lament that a vote for a third party is a vote for Trump. And over and over I've seen Trump supporters lament that a vote for a third party is a vote for Clinton.

Yes, apparently voting third party means your vote counts for 3, one for Clinton, one for Trump, and one for the third party candidate.

All a third party vote really says is that a person can't in good conscience support either the democratic or republican candidate.

Hlafordlaes 20th June 2018 11:09 AM

Nazi agenda:
- Criminalize a civil offense
- Apply label of "criminal" to otherwise decent people
- Mention actual violent criminals
- Conflate the two, use race and labels to link
- Incite
- Now you can do <whatever> to the unarmed and defenseless, because "dark" and "feared for my life."

Transparent pap for the weak-minded and ethically vacant, or eager sociopaths. Also contrary to gospel for claimants of adherence to that code.

***
Now, as to all that "rule of law" jawboning from the GOP, TBD and logger:
  • Using your own original wording, without quoting any source, identify the conceptual relationship you personally believe, and can arguably sustain, that holds between the Bill of Rights, representative democracy, and the separation of powers, as compensating measures, with respect to the "rule of law" and "will of the People." Note that a big hint for kiddies has already been given you in the wording to provide some measure of chance, even if slight.
Or capitulate. Otherwise, stand down as incapable and patently unequipped to participate in reasoned adult debate regarding the proper nature and scope of laws and their enforcement in democracy (another hint). Fair warning: On this topic, I am quite willing to take firm hold, wrap coils, and squeeze until inert. As you both have taken a knee and chosen the first escape option on offer explicitly before, I suggest you make that same, safe determination, or finally admit you must take the second, more definitive, out.

And if you never even thought there was such a relation, turn off the PC, and go watch cartoons.

(I may be called away to work or play, but shall return.)

Darat 20th June 2018 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12333859)
That isn't surprising.

I'm sure they don't either.

If it was "so simple" we wouldn't have a massive backlog of rape kits and other DNA evidence (of real, violent crimes) waiting to be tested.

Where have you been for the last decade or so? The documentary series CSI has documented that you can get a DNA match done within minutes!

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 11:11 AM

Separate children from parents detailed for committing a crime.
The Left: Won't somebody think of the Children?

People call for violent attacks on ICE employees' children and threaten to murder Congressmen's kids.
The Left: Whomp whomp

Segnosaur 20th June 2018 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12333909)
I voted for Hillary but gave serioius consideration to voting for Johnson simply because I hated Trump with a passion, but simply did not agree with a lot of Hilary's policies.

That is quite understandable. Its doubtful ANY politician will be a perfect match to anyone's policies, and Clinton was certainly no exception.

But the last election was not just about policy. It was about competency and integrity. Normally its not an issue... But again, Trump is different, and even if you differed over elements of policy, Clinton should clearly have been the preferred choice because, well, not a racist nut-bag.

I also have to wonder... if someone were a long time republican, would they REALLY find Clinton's policies that far off from the traditional republican stances? She was seen as being on the right-side of the Democrats, pro-corporate and had an aggressive foreign policy. On the other hand, while Trump talked deregulation and tax cuts, he also talked about ending foreign trade agreements and cutting back in America's military involvement overseas (a lie, but it was still a promise). So, in some ways Trump was even less of a republican than Clinton was.

Quote:

But to be fair, voting for Johnson did seem to be a "safe" protest vote because Hilary was heavily favored to win.
Again, even if that was the case (although one should never be 100% sure... Pennsylvania was also considered solidly democrat), there is also the symbolic aspect of the vote... the "We REALLY disagree with your racism so we're going to vote for your opponent.")

Quote:

And I think you are not being fair, a number of people thought there would be more resistence to Trump from Republicans in Congress then their has been.
Then they were foolish.

The republicans had just spent 8 years being the party opposed to just about everything Obama did, regardless of merit. They spent much of the last year blocking Obama's supreme court nominee due to some non-existent "Biden rule". The party had voted multiple times to repeal Obamacare. They ran multiple investigations into Bengazi that turned up... nothing. And they were under significant influence from the religious right, the NRA, and the tea party. Why would anyone think that a party that had been so intractable during the Obama years would all of a sudden turn around and be the voice of reason and moderation? Did they think there was some sort of Mind Wipe device like they had in Men in Black that would automatically make them forget that "Oh, I'm supposed to be an uber-republican"?

BobTheCoward 20th June 2018 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 12333896)
So you really think Johnson would have made the best leader?

Absolutely.

Craig B 20th June 2018 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333936)
Separate children from parents detailed for committing a crime.
The Left: Won't somebody think of the Children?

People call for violent attacks on ICE employees' children and threaten to murder Congressmen's kids.
The Left: Whomp whomp

Quote please. So far, all the Left have been pointing out is that a resident of a mobile home park is less influential than the President of the USA. If anyone on the left has said his threats are acceptable, please quote and we will join you in deploring the comments.

Shalamar 20th June 2018 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12333936)
Separate children from parents detailed for committing a crime.
The Left: Won't somebody think of the Children?

People call for violent attacks on ICE employees' children and threaten to murder Congressmen's kids.
The Left: Whomp whomp

Do you support putting children in cages?

LSSBB 20th June 2018 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12333882)
Who did you vote for for congress?

I voted for August (O'Neill) Deuser, Republican - there was no Libertarian in the race. Deuser got 25.9% of the vote against ex-black Panther, ordained minister and serial mumbler Bobby Rush - who has yet to move the needle economically in any positive fashion in his district, or even promote racial harmony in any meaningful way that I can detect.

The Big Dog 20th June 2018 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shalamar (Post 12333897)
Womp Womp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig B (Post 12333945)
Quote please. So far, all the Left have been pointing out is that a resident of a mobile home park is less influential than the President of the USA. If anyone on the left has said his threats are acceptable, please quote and we will join you in deploring the comments.

And the whole "less powerful than Trump" bait and switch red herring derail is utterly specious.

Someone recommended attacking the children of ICE employees.
He is not as influential as Trump.

I guess the left does feel the threats are acceptable, because they sure have done nothing to "deplore" them.

Segnosaur 20th June 2018 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Animus (Post 12333932)
Re: Votes for a 3rd party helped Trump...

All a third party vote really says is that a person can't in good conscience support either the democratic or republican candidate.

First of all, if your 'good conscience' manages to suggest Clinton (a flawed but relatively competent candidate) and Trump (a racist orangutan with a string of failed businesses and shady deals) are somehow equivalent then your "good conscience" is a failure. Trump is a racist nut-bag, Clinton was not. Not doing everything you can to stop Trump means that you consider things like the forced separation of children from parents to be less significant than it really is.

Secondly, the U.S. is (for better or worse) a 2 party system. If one of the candidates is REALLY bad (like, for example, a racist orangutan who tries to equate Mexicans with "rapists" and who eventually brings about a situation where children are forcefully separated from their parents) it makes sense to want them stopped. A vote for a 3rd party says "Errr.... racism is no big deal".

uke2se 20th June 2018 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shalamar (Post 12333946)
Do you support putting children in cages?

Why do you even bother?

uke2se 20th June 2018 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSSBB (Post 12333951)
I voted for August (O'Neill) Deuser, Republican - there was no Libertarian in the race. Deuser got 25.9% of the vote against ex-black Panther, ordained minister and serial mumbler Bobby Rush - who has yet to move the needle economically in any positive fashion in his district, or even promote racial harmony in any meaningful way that I can detect.

Where does Deuser stand on the Trump-issue?

ETA: Reading a Q&A with Deuser he seems like a regular Trumpster. It's from 2016, so I guess he might have changed (:D)


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