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-   -   Trump immigrant family separation policy (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330118)

sylvan8798 18th June 2018 02:58 PM

Trump immigrant family separation policy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
Do we have a taking babies away thread? This needs a thread.

I'll just leave this here for starters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ObMpGWm18

Ann Coulter: They're child actors.

Me: You're Satan.

The Atheist 18th June 2018 03:07 PM

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

The Big Dog 18th June 2018 03:12 PM

The article she was referring to

Mumbles 18th June 2018 03:20 PM

No shock there - Coulter was an early proponent of the nazi fetishism that currently runs the GOP.

Cain 18th June 2018 03:27 PM

****in' illegal alien child actors are taking jobs away from real Americans. Being a child actors is one of the few ways children are employed, but the left will turn a blind eye.

Skeptic Ginger 18th June 2018 03:49 PM

Thanks Sylvan.

Clinton responded to Trump claiming Germany was a mess because of immigrants and gave some stats (all crime) in a speech about crime in Germany being down, Fox says she's wrong using different stats (violent crimes and a different time period) to contradict her.

I wish there was some fact checking handy, I'm tired at the moment.

Skeptic Ginger 18th June 2018 03:54 PM

The baby crying audio is getting a lot of news coverage, good.

The latest GOP talking point: none of the immigrants show up for their hearings if they get released after being processed.

No wonder, when people are instantly deported by ICE when they check in like they are supposed to.

theprestige 18th June 2018 04:01 PM

Moral of the story: Don't try to smuggle your family across the border.

You know what families don't get separated? The ones immigrating legally.

NoahFence 18th June 2018 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331567)
Moral of the story: Don't try to smuggle your family across the border.

You know what families don't get separated? The ones immigrating legally.

That's factually incorrect. Those people seeking legit asylum are getting separated, too. Regardless, its am inhumane practice. period.

Mumbles 18th June 2018 04:05 PM

Let me add: I see that Joe Pollack, who is still at the white nationalist site Breitbart.com, is also justifying it, and saying that the kids aren't being held in cages (they are).

Wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if the white power Trio on Fox News (Hannity, Inghram, and Carlson) did so as well.

From Zora Neale Hurston: "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time"

And I'll add the old African-American proverb: "We told y'all." This is what I expected to see, and why I joined both the ACLU and the NAACP the day after Dolt 45 was elected. He ran on white supremacism, so no shock that he's governing based on it as well.

Mumbles 18th June 2018 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahFence (Post 12331573)
That's factually incorrect. Those people seeking legit asylum are getting separated, too. Regardless, its am inhumane practice. period.

THey're being told to apply at ports of entry - except those have all been closed to asylum seekers. No different than "You just need to go down to the DMV to get a voter ID - also, we're closing all DMV offices in every majority black or Hispanic area in the state."

Tero 18th June 2018 04:13 PM

White House says they have to arrest all illegal immigrants and put them in jail. Would it not be better for them to deport them immediately than keep them here? It does not get rid of them to jail them.
:funny:
That was their reason for separating the kids, who are not criminals.

Skeptic Ginger 18th June 2018 04:13 PM

GOP pundit on CNN: "The Democrats want this, it's a voting issue."

Ummm, if that's the case why doesn't Trump end it?

The woman's losing her temper, "Trump ran on securing the boarder." The truth comes out.

Ahhhhhh!

LSSBB 18th June 2018 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331567)
Moral of the story: Don't try to smuggle your family across the border.

You know what families don't get separated? The ones immigrating legally.

It's their fault we're separating them?

theprestige 18th June 2018 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbles (Post 12331576)
THey're being told to apply at ports of entry - except those have all been closed to asylum seekers. No different than "You just need to go down to the DMV to get a voter ID - also, we're closing all DMV offices in every majority black or Hispanic area in the state."

Good thing no nation owes foreigners a port of entry.

theprestige 18th June 2018 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahFence (Post 12331573)
That's factually incorrect. Those people seeking legit asylum are getting separated, too. Regardless, its am inhumane practice. period.

"legit asylum" begs the question.

Skeptic Ginger 18th June 2018 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSSBB (Post 12331584)
It's their fault we're separating them?

Of course, according to the pundit on CNN: these are horrible parents because they send the kids off on their own (the other kids that arrived alone). This lady has no clue that everyone doesn't have her white-ass life.

NoahFence 18th June 2018 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331587)
"legit asylum" begs the question.

Get a *********** ladder and take down the Statue of liberty.

Squeegee Beckenheim 18th June 2018 04:38 PM

It's always interesting to see who is willing to justify child abuse.

Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that it is all the parent's fault and no blame can possibly be assigned to Trump or anybody else American or working in any position of power. Does that actually justify separating the children from their parents? Does it mitigate the irreparable harm that is being done to the children? Are the children themselves culpable for any crime?

Or should the USA be better than that? Should it find ways to deal with the problem without abusing children? Even assuming that it's 100% the parent's fault, that doesn't mean that this policy isn't also wrong on America's side. If I tell you that I'm going to punch your baby in the face if you steal 1,000 from my bank account, then am I justified in actually carrying out that threat if you do so? Or is it possible for both the theft and the baby-punching to be wrong?

And, I suppose, the further question is - has this policy actually created a better situation than the one before it was implemented in May? Is anybody better off because of this? Is America better? Safer? Better off financially? Are there fewer immigrants? Bear in mind before answering that Sessions explicitly said that the purpose of this policy was to act as a deterrent. Is that a good enough reason for child abuse?

paulhutch 18th June 2018 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tero (Post 12331581)
White House says they have to arrest all illegal immigrants and put them in jail. Would it not be better for them to deport them immediately than keep them here? It does not get rid of them to jail them.

Before the new procedure mandated by the Trump administration it made sense to hold them here. The old procedure was keep the whole family together in a detention facility until they can see a judge. If the judge decides they have a valid asylum claim they get to stay here legally. If no asylum is granted then the whole family is deported together.

Now with this new procedure the more humane process would be to just keep them together and deport them ASAP. Instead we now inflict a ridiculous amount of emotional abuse on the parents and children by separating them, holding them longer, then deporting the parents and children separately. I don't think the Trump administration could have devised a more cruel but legal way to handle a terrible situation.

gregthehammer 18th June 2018 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331567)
Moral of the story: Don't try to smuggle your family across the border.

You know what families don't get separated? The ones immigrating legally.

In an ideal world, yes, all imigration would be legal. However, we have to deal with the messy reality that families are crossing our borders illegally. So what do we do? I'd prefer to show a bit of compassion, and at least keep these family units together, regardless if they are ultimately sent back or are allowed to stay. To separate these kids from their parents strikes me as sadistic.

The Big Dog 18th June 2018 05:04 PM

10k out of the 12k children in detention came here with unrelated adults (so 5 out 6 come with human traffickers)

theprestige 18th June 2018 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahFence (Post 12331590)
Get a *********** ladder and take down the Statue of liberty.

The statue of liberty is no more binding than the pledge of allegiance. Try again.

Craig4 18th June 2018 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12331637)
10k out of the 12k children in detention came here with unrelated adults (so 5 out 6 come with human traffickers)

Do you have a citation unrelated to Trump?

theprestige 18th June 2018 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12331608)
It's always interesting to see who is willing to justify child abuse.

First and foremost, the parents who committed themselves and their children to this process.

theprestige 18th June 2018 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregthehammer (Post 12331618)
In an ideal world, yes, all imigration would be legal. However, we have to deal with the messy reality that families are crossing our borders illegally. So what do we do? I'd prefer to show a bit of compassion, and at least keep these family units together, regardless if they are ultimately sent back or are allowed to stay. To separate these kids from their parents strikes me as sadistic.

Why? Social Services separates children from their parents for lesser crimes all the time.

Tero 18th June 2018 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulhutch (Post 12331610)
Before the new procedure mandated by the Trump administration it made sense to hold them here. The old procedure was keep the whole family together in a detention facility until they can see a judge. If the judge decides they have a valid asylum claim they get to stay here legally. If no asylum is granted then the whole family is deported together.

Now with this new procedure the more humane process would be to just keep them together and deport them ASAP. Instead we now inflict a ridiculous amount of emotional abuse on the parents and children by separating them, holding them longer, then deporting the parents and children separately. I don't think the Trump administration could have devised a more cruel but legal way to handle a terrible situation.

Yes, a surprise. The immediate deportation is the more humane solution.

Fudbucker 18th June 2018 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331646)
First and foremost, the parents who committed themselves and their children to this process.

What if we cut off some of these kids' fingers? Just take the pinkies. I bet that would be a deterrent to ever coming here again. And we can blame the parents who "committed "themselves and their children to this process."

Craig4 18th June 2018 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331567)
Moral of the story: Don't try to smuggle your family across the border.

You know what families don't get separated? The ones immigrating legally.

Nice view from the cheap seats. Do you ever think about why your produce is so cheap and what that human cost is? We speak out of two sides of our mouth when we deal with undocumented migrants. We turn the SLB into a demon's obstacle course for immigrants whose reward for passing it is to pick your table grapes the radishes you put in your salad.


How about you run along and get a few more caches in your passport before you whine about immigrants. Your uniformed white privilege perspective doesn't give you a whole lot of authority here.

The Atheist 18th June 2018 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331567)
Moral of the story: Don't try to smuggle your family across the border.

You know what families don't get separated? The ones immigrating legally.

Ah, the old two wrongs make it right argument.

How quaint.

Craig4 18th June 2018 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331647)
Why? Social Services separates children from their parents for lesser crimes all the time.

How are the parents a flight risk if they are released to the custody DHS who has facilities to house families in pre-hearing detention?

LSSBB 18th June 2018 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331646)
First and foremost, the parents who committed themselves and their children to this process.

They should abandon their children when desperate enough to seek a better life?

gregthehammer 18th June 2018 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331647)
Why? Social Services separates children from their parents for lesser crimes all the time.

Why would i prefer to show compassion? Cause im a compasssionate guy? Or are you asking me why i think its sadistic? That would be because we were able to keep these families together previous, so what good reason is there for this seperation now, unless the intent is to spite these immigrants.
All for what, trespassing? Thats the only real crime being comitted.

Squeegee Beckenheim 18th June 2018 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331646)
First and foremost, the parents who committed themselves and their children to this process.

Leaving aside the fact that you totally ignored all the rest of my post, can you honestly not envision a situation where a parent is stuck between making two choices for their child where both will be traumatic? Does the fact that the abuse that America is inflicting on these children may be better than the conditions where they come from make it okay?

I'll ask again - who actually benefits from this policy? What is the up side?

Squeegee Beckenheim 18th June 2018 05:34 PM

Seth Abramson thread analysing the policy from a legal perspective

Random 18th June 2018 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSSBB (Post 12331661)
They should abandon their children when desperate enough to seek a better life?

If you are not ready to throw your children to the wolves to save yourself, are you really that desperate?

Seriously though, concentration camps for kids? I don't give a **** what the law says or how we got here, if you are building tent cities in the desert to put children in, you have gone horribly wrong somewhere in your life and need to back the **** up...

Trebuchet 18th June 2018 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig4 (Post 12331645)
Do you have a citation unrelated to Trump?

It's from the Secretary of Homeland Security (a department name that has always made me want to puke, by the way) twisting the facts by including all of those before the recent crackdown.
So no, not unrelated to Trump.

The Big Dog 18th June 2018 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12331672)

What immigration experience does the author have that causes you to recommend his threaded tweets?

BobTheCoward 18th June 2018 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12331682)
It's from the Secretary of Homeland Security (a department name that has always made me want to puke, by the way) twisting the facts by including all of those before the recent crackdown.
So no, not unrelated to Trump.

Let me guess.... because there wasn't a family separation policy before,the only detained children would have been the ones entering without parents? And that if significantly more parents and children entered at the time, the children would never have been detained and counted in that number?

rwguinn 18th June 2018 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12331682)
It's from the Secretary of Homeland Security (a department name that has always made me want to puke, by the way) twisting the facts by including all of those before the recent crackdown.
So no, not unrelated to Trump.

I'll have to check the source again, but I read one article (from CNN I believe) where the interviewed individual statd that as soon as they are separated from their parent(s), they are reclassified as "Unacompanied children".
Self-eating watermelon, indeed

The Big Dog 18th June 2018 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwguinn (Post 12331689)
I'll have to check the source again, but I read one article (from CNN I believe) where the interviewed individual statd that as soon as they are separated from their parent(s), they are reclassified as "Unacompanied children".
Self-eating watermelon, indeed

The claim was that 5 out of 6 presented to the border with unrelated adults.

BobTheCoward 18th June 2018 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12331699)
The claim was that 5 out of 6 presented to the border with unrelated adults.

We still need a cite.

ServiceSoon 18th June 2018 06:05 PM

The claim I heard on NPR was that there has been a substantial increase in attempted illegal border crossings and claims of asylum with children. In fact, an industry has arose in other countries to assist those to take advantage of these laws. The increase in children present in these incidences can easily be attributed to the softer, humane policies imposed only when children are present. The purpose of the Trump policy is to deter using children as bargaining chips to gain entry into the US.

SOURCE

phiwum 18th June 2018 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331567)
Moral of the story: Don't try to smuggle your family across the border.

You know what families don't get separated? The ones immigrating legally.

But some have been told they can't enter and claim asylum, because we're just too busy for that.

It used to be that asylum seekers would be recognized even if they crossed illegally. Ain't so any more. Is that due to Democrats? Or the administration?

BobTheCoward 18th June 2018 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon (Post 12331707)
The claim I heard on NPR was that there has been a substantial increase in attempted illegal border crossings and claims of asylum with children. In fact, an industry has arose in other countries to assist those to take advantage of these laws. The increase in children present in these incidences can easily be attributed to the softer, humane policies imposed only when children are present. The purpose of the Trump policy is to deter using children as bargaining chips to gain entry into the US.

And it is dumb.

sylvan8798 18th June 2018 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331646)
First and foremost, the parents who committed themselves and their children to this process.

Were the parents given a choice when they were detained? "Go back this minute and we'll pretend we didn't see you here. If you stay we will take your children from you and you might never see them again."

That some parents would opt for the latter doesn't make it okay.

phiwum 18th June 2018 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregthehammer (Post 12331618)
In an ideal world, yes, all imigration would be legal. However, we have to deal with the messy reality that families are crossing our borders illegally. So what do we do? I'd prefer to show a bit of compassion, and at least keep these family units together, regardless if they are ultimately sent back or are allowed to stay. To separate these kids from their parents strikes me as sadistic.

Well said.

NoahFence 18th June 2018 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12331644)
The statue of liberty is no more binding than the pledge of allegiance. Try again.

it's a statement on who we were.

Now that you people have made it clear that brown immigration is bad immigration I think you should remove the statue you find offensive.

Norman Alexander 18th June 2018 06:43 PM

Quick question: Have any of the current US administration or Border Force actually told these "illegal immigrants" BEFORE they crossed that (a) their action was illegal, and (b) they will lose their children? Any fore-warning? Do they know these people don't have cable tuned to Fox News or even get newspapers?

Because if they have not, these people are not being deterred by these developments in the slightest because they simply do not know this is happening. They are walking over a cliff in the dark they don't know is there.

If people-smugglers and money are involved, odds are VERY high they won't say a damn thing to their "clients", or try to hush it up if they do hear rumours. They don't give a rats if the kids get separated or not, as long as they get their cash.

Meanwhile, illegal workers, those who are trying to work for a living under the radar in the USA, will not be bringing children. They want to avoid all this fuss and just melt into the background. So bringing children is now the worst way to attract attention.

And what about the honest-to-goodness refugees? When they are on the trek from Central America, they won't even have immigration papers let alone TV with Fox News bleating their Trumpian bulletins. So they present themselves for help at the US border...and get the full Sophie's Choice treatment. Nice...

NoahFence 18th June 2018 06:47 PM

you mean they don't all have Obamaphones while treking through the desert?


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