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-   -   "24 hard facts about 9/11 that cannot be debunked" (https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265416)

ArchStanton 16th September 2013 09:56 AM

"24 hard facts about 9/11 that cannot be debunked"
 
This list is being spammed all over social media, with the claim that their 24 "hard facts" can't be debunked.

The very first fact is an instant fail (Jones' paper has never been accepted in a peer-reviewed journal, as far as I'm aware Benthams is a vanity publisher that prints in exchange for payment), as is the second.

How many more of these "hard facts that cannot be debunked" can you debunk? ;)



24 Hard Facts About 9/11 That Cannot Be Debunked
January 18, 2013 by Joe Martino
Mod WarningBreach of rule 4 removed. Do not copy and paste material from elsewhere.
Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:Cuddles

BStrong 16th September 2013 10:05 AM

#7 - OBL was already wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya.

There was no need for the FBI to include the 9/11 charges prior to OBL's capture and/or death.

DGM 16th September 2013 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchStanton (Post 9494820)

18) The 911 commission was given extremely limited funds. $15 million was given to investigate 9/11. (Over $60 Million was spent investigating Clintons’ affairs with Monica).

This is a lie by omission. The "9/11 Commission" was only one small part of the investigation. "Truthers" really don't like truth.

The total investigation cost over shadows the "BJ" investigation by orders of magnitude.

Spindrift 16th September 2013 10:08 AM

The list should be titled:
"Here's 24 things about 9/11 that we're going to pretend haven't already been addressed."

Sabretooth 16th September 2013 10:09 AM

Holy flashbacks. I swear it's 2006 again. This has been a banner year for complete rehashings of nonsense that was already debunked.

Regnad Kcin 16th September 2013 10:11 AM

I've come to the sad conclusion that lying is pathological.

threadworm 16th September 2013 10:13 AM

Number 2 is not a fact about 9/11, it is a fact about people who have a strong opinion about 9/11.

Their opinion is also number 2.

aggle-rithm 16th September 2013 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchStanton (Post 9494820)

2) 1700+ Engineers and Architects support a real independent 9/11 investigation. Richard Gage, Founder. ‘Explosive Evidence’, ‘Blueprint for Truth’, ‘AE911′, ‘Toronto Hearings’, ‘Kevin Ryan’.

This claim would be improved if it specified "real Engineers and Architects" instead of "real independent 9/11 investigation".

aggle-rithm 16th September 2013 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by threadworm (Post 9494854)
Number 2 is not a fact about 9/11, it is a fact about people who have a strong opinion about 9/11.

Their opinion is also number 2.

I see what you did there.

ElMondoHummus 16th September 2013 10:16 AM

As you noted, the first one's an instant fail, and for many more reasons than just painfully poor peer review. Just look up Sunstealer's posts and you'll have all the stuff you'll need. Heck, just look up R.Mackey's posts, and all that by itself will give you all that you need, even before 9/10ths of the other posts on the topic here - from Oystein, from The Almond, from many others, including some by myself, etc., - are thrown in, many of which have info of excellent value (Chris Mohr's posts, for example).

The second is sort of an obvious statement: There are fools in the world who'll believe anything, and some of them have professional credentials. I guess you can go through and critique the list by pointing out the lack of relevant expertise, the inflated numbers, and so on, but really, that's one I wouldn't even address. When you establish that the party line is chock full of wrong, you then don't even have to address any list of believers. You've already addressed their argument. And that's all that matters.

The rest of the list has stuff that's been on sites like 911Myths, Debunking 9/11, Gravy's site, etc. since 2006. That "set up to fail" quote is one I've personally refuted in the past; just look up my old posts in conjunction with Hamilton and Keane's names. Ditto for the FBI vidoes; we've discussed that ad nauseum in this forum.

Yeah, this is nothing more than just old claims packaged in a nice, simple list. All of which have been addressed (my God, I can't believe the resurrected the "Put Options", the incorrect "free fall" time, etc., all of which again has been addressed.

Evangelization. Not information. Par for the course.

ElMondoHummus 16th September 2013 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabretooth (Post 9494843)
... This has been a banner year for complete rehashings of nonsense that was already debunked.

Well, in other words, business as usual. ;)

jaydeehess 16th September 2013 10:20 AM

Time to first lie:
#1 - nanothermite in the dust has been debunked. Those making the declaration that it is thermitic failed to show the basic property of such materials, that they are self oxidizing and can thus burn in a no oxygen environment.

In fact each of these 24 points either is not a hard fact and has been debunked already, or has little actual relevance to the subject in the first place.

BStrong 16th September 2013 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydeehess (Post 9494872)
Time to first lie:
#1 - nanothermite in the dust has been debunked. Those making the declaration that it is thermitic failed to show the basic property of such materials, that they are self oxidizing and can thus burn in a no oxygen environment.

But what if it was super-duper nanothermite?

When I first saw thermite promoted as a controlled demo agent I laughed, I couldn't believe anyone would be that stupid, but I overestimated thruther collective intelligence.

beachnut 16th September 2013 10:27 AM

Correction: "24 delusions about 911 that make 911 truth followers dumber than dirt"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchStanton (Post 9494820)
...

WTC 7 (The Smoking Gun)

Building 7 was a 47-story skyscraper and was part of the World Trade Center complex. Built in 1984, it would have been the tallest high-rise in 33 states in the United States. It collapsed at 5:20 pm on September 11, 2001 in 6.5 Seconds at free fall acceleration. It was not hit by an airplane and suffered minimal damage compared to other buildings much closer to the Twin Towers.

For 911 truth followers who can't count, or work a watch, proof of gullibility.

Self debunking


Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchStanton (Post 9494820)
... How many more of these "hard facts that cannot be debunked" can you debunk? ;)
...

Only 911 truth followers can't debunk these insane claims. Love the ACARS one, a lie spread by idiots at p4t, Balsamo's club for failed pilots.

aggle-rithm 16th September 2013 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchStanton (Post 9494820)
Building 7 was a 47-story skyscraper and was part of the World Trade Center complex. Built in 1984, it would have been the tallest high-rise in 33 states in the United States.

Yes...as everyone knows, the taller you build something, the more stable it becomes.

jaydeehess 16th September 2013 10:31 AM

The lie that stands out the most for me is that 7WTC collapsed in 6.5 seconds. Its as if the internal collapse, illustrated only after it had begun by the in falling of the rooftop structures, is not part of the collapse. Its a most dishonest piece of sophistry. Then there are the details left out that are inconvenient to the TM, such as greater than free fall acceleration noted of 7WTC.

DGM 16th September 2013 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm (Post 9494903)
Yes...as everyone knows, the taller you build something, the more stable it becomes.

I'd be impressed if they explained how that building would be part of this evil plan. Did they just take it down for kicks? :confused:

jaydeehess 16th September 2013 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 9494890)
But what if it was super-duper nanothermite?

When I first saw thermite promoted as a controlled demo agent I laughed, I couldn't believe anyone woul;d be that stupid, but I overestimated thruther collective intelligence.

Indeed.
I have yet to see any detailed scenario in which it is explained how ?therm?te was utilized. If the idea was to drop these structures in such a fashion as to limit collateral damage to neighboring complexes, then how was a ?therm?the demolition timed?

Of course super-secret-duper nanothermite was only ever invoked because no where on any recording is there the sound of explosives large enough to sever large columns. Supposedly ssd-nanothermite not only severs columns as quickly as rdx cutters, it does so without causing the huge bang conventional cutting charges make. Yet there was enough 'leftover' of this substance, to heat the rubble underground (while never flaring up at the surfsce) and keep it hot enough to have liquid stage steel around for weeks and that is the only way molten steel coukd develop and remain. Pie in the sky, unsubstantiated, bald assertion put forth as if it were fact.

beachnut 16th September 2013 10:53 AM

Quote:

This list is being spammed all over social media, with the claim that their 24 "hard facts" can't be debunked.
This is 911 truth only action - they read, believe blindly and spam it all over.
The portland woo from April 2013 post if freely. Is this reflective of the IQ of the readers?
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2013/04/422646.shtml

Source of the plagarized 24 nut case claims...
by Joe Martino, January 18, 2013.
http://www.collective-evolution.com/...t-be-debunked/
Proud to spread woo, he does it to promote peace and love, by spreading lies based on nonsese.

http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2013/...t-be-debunked/ Veterans news now gives a bad name to veterans. What an idiotic publication.

Spammed all over, albeit slowly. No Pulitzer for recycled failure?

Is the level of woo reflective of the readers of
http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2013/...t-be-debunked/
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2013/04/422646.shtml

http://beforeitsnews.com/9-11-and-gr...d-2439522.html
Feb 2013


http://www.collective-evolution.com/...t-be-debunked/

Quote:

Joe Martino
I created CE 4 years ago and have been heavily at it since. I love inspiring others to find joy and make changes in their lives. Hands down the only other thing I am this passionate about is baseball. Feel free to email me at http://www.collective-evolution.com/...t-be-debunked/
He loves to spread lies so we can find joy, and ... WHAT?
Ignorance personified on 911. 12 years of ignonrace on 911, an unknowing puppet in Gage's propaganda wing of woo.

Don't forget, "Feel free to email me (him) at http://www.collective-evolution.com/...t-be-debunked/. Dear Joe, ...

BStrong 16th September 2013 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydeehess (Post 9494924)
Indeed.
I have yet to see any detailed scenario in which it is explained how ?therm?te was utilized. If the idea was to drop these structures in such a fashion as to limit collateral damage to neighboring complexes, then how was a ?therm?the demolition timed?

Of course super-secret-duper nanothermite was only ever invoked because no where on any recording is there the sound of explosives large enough to sever large columns. Supposedly ssd-nanothermite not only severs columns as quickly as rdx cutters, it does so without causing the huge bang conventional cutting charges make. Yet there was enough 'leftover' of this substance, to heat the rubble underground (while never flaring up at the surfsce) and keep it hot enough to have liquid stage steel around for weeks and that is the only way molten steel coukd develop and remain. Pie in the sky, unsubstantiated, bald assertion put forth as if it were fact.

What thermite pushers didn't know from the begining that they should have known is that thermite goes molten after ignition, and trying to hold thermite on a surface (as you would using thermite as a welding tool) is almost impossible absent some structure to hold the reaction - and no such structures were discovered post-collapse.

I went to Joe Martino's website - he's seriously into the realm of 9/11 Hollywood fantasy.

thedopefishlives 16th September 2013 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 9495000)
What thermite pushers didn't know from the begining that they should have known is that thermite goes molten after ignition, and trying to hold thermite on a surface (as you would using thermite as a welding tool) is almost impossible absent some structure to hold the reaction - and no such structures were discovered post-collapse.

I went to Joe Martino's website - he's seriously into the realm of 9/11 Hollywood fantasy.

This is why the super-duper-nano-banana-thermite is now being touted as an ignition device for high explosives. Except, oh wait, explosives are triggered by shock, not by heat, and the disposal method for most explosive compounds is burning... Boy, this nanner-termite theory really wasn't thought through all the way, was it. :rolleyes:

Africanus 16th September 2013 11:30 AM

The biggest lie with this list is the claim of "24 hard facts". Indeed some points multiple claim like

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchStanton (Post 9494820)
3) The total collapse of WTC 7 in 6.5 seconds at free fall acceleration (NIST admits 2.25 seconds). Larry Silverstein used the term “Pull it”. Steel framed high rise buildings have NEVER totally collapsed from fire or structural damage. Builidng 7 was not hit by a plane. ‘Building 7′, ‘WTC 7′.

This point consists of four claims:

"The total collapse of WTC 7 in 6.5 seconds at free fall acceleration (NIST admits 2.25 seconds)."

As mentioned by some others, this claim is wrong.

"Larry Silverstein used the term “Pull it”."

This claim has been debunked long ago.

"Steel framed high rise buildings have NEVER totally collapsed from fire or structural damage."

This is a strawman argument as it wasn't that the three towers collapsed due to fires or structural damage but fires AND structural damage.

"Builidng 7 was not hit by a plane."

Although this claim is true, it leaves out that 7 WTC was hit by debris from the North Tower.

This scheme continues until the end of the list. This end itself is priceless:

"24) At least 7 of the 19 listed highjackers are still alive (BBC)."

This claim was debunked in 2001.

MileHighMadness 16th September 2013 11:36 AM

Wow...hot tub time machine...is it 2006?

Question...will ArchStanton return? Or was this a one shot troll post?

MHM

Bell 16th September 2013 11:44 AM

What the hell?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabretooth (Post 9494843)
Holy flashbacks. I swear it's 2006 again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MileHighMadness (Post 9495037)
Wow...hot tub time machine...is it 2006?

What they said...

DaveThomasNMSR 16th September 2013 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchStanton (Post 9494820)
[b]This list is being spammed all over social media, with the claim that their 24 "hard facts" can't be debunked.
...
6) FBI confiscated 84/85 Videos from the Pentagon. ‘Moussaoui trial’ revealed these videos. Released Pentagon Security Camera (FOIA) does not show a 757 and is clearly Missing a frame. ‘Sheraton Hotel’, “Double tree’, ‘Citgo”.
...

They lost me at #1, but they super-triple-no-holds-barred lost me with "CITGO."

Sheesh.

Border Reiver 16th September 2013 11:59 AM

Quote:

14) History of American False Flag attacks. ‘USS Liberty’, ‘Gulf of Tonkin’, ‘Operation Northwoods’, ‘OKC Bombing (Murrah Building)’, ’1993 WTC attacks’. ‘Patrick Clawson’. Project for the New American Century (PNAC) needed “a New Pearl Harbor”, “Rebuilding America’s Defenses”. 9/11 Achieved those goals.

This one is easy:

USS Liberty incident: Not a false flag - the aircraft and torpedo boats that misidentified and attacked the USS Liberty were clearly marked as Israeli. No war occurred, and within hours of the incident Israel was apologizing.

Gulf of Tonkin Incident: Not a false flag - On August 2 the North Vietnamese Navy and the USN did have a brief altercation, and on August 4, the USN did fire on more NVN vessels. The initial incident was the result of misinformation and bad target identification by the USN (a sonar operator mistaking the sound of the ships propeller for a torpedo, etc.).

Op Northwoods: Had it actually been carried out this would have been a false flag event (or rather events). The plan was rejected and never implemented.

The Murrah bombing(OKC Bombing): McVeigh and Nicols have claimed to have acted in concert to do the deed, and the damage was consist with their stated means (fertilizer bomb). There is no evidence that would suggest that the two were compelled to do so. Not a False flag.

the 93 WTC Bombing: AQ's first kick at the cat - straight up terrorist attack.

Patrick Clawson: An economist with no connection to government policy making says something stupid (ie that America provoke Iran into a war). Other than the fact that this guy got some press, how is it different from the drunk guy at the end of the bar muttering about those [insert category of persons here]?

PNAC Report: recommended that the US miltary be reformatted to be able to fight and win a two theatre war (among other recommendations). Having the capability to do something is not the same thing as doing the thing. Sort of like critical thinking and the person who created this list - they have the capability of doing so, but chose not to in favour of writing a list of 24 point that can be debunked....

djlunacee 16th September 2013 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchStanton (Post 9494820)
This list is being spammed all over social media, with the claim that their 24 "hard facts" can't be debunked.

The very first fact is an instant fail (Jones' paper has never been accepted in a peer-reviewed journal, as far as I'm aware Benthams is a vanity publisher that prints in exchange for payment), as is the second.

How many more of these "hard facts that cannot be debunked" can you debunk? ;)



24 Hard Facts About 9/11 That Cannot Be Debunked
January 18, 2013 by Joe Martino

9/11 has been one of the biggest events in recent history that sparked a mass awakening across the world. There has been much debate as to how it happened, who is responsible and why. To this day about 1/3 of americans do not believe the official story. In other areas of the world as much as 90% of the country does not believe the official story.

Here is a list of 24 facts that cannot be debunked about 9/11.

1) Nano Thermite was found in the dust at Ground Zero. Peer reviewed in the Bentham Open Chemical Physics Journal. ‘Niels Harrit’, ‘Thermite Bentham’, “The great thermate debate” Jon Cole, ‘Iron rich spheres’ Steven Jones, ‘Limited Metallurgical Examination (FEMA C-13, Appendix C-6)’. ‘Nano Tubes’

2) 1700+ Engineers and Architects support a real independent 9/11 investigation. Richard Gage, Founder. ‘Explosive Evidence’, ‘Blueprint for Truth’, ‘AE911′, ‘Toronto Hearings’, ‘Kevin Ryan’.

3) The total collapse of WTC 7 in 6.5 seconds at free fall acceleration (NIST admits 2.25 seconds). Larry Silverstein used the term “Pull it”. Steel framed high rise buildings have NEVER totally collapsed from fire or structural damage. Builidng 7 was not hit by a plane. ‘Building 7′, ‘WTC 7′.

4) Dick Cheney was in command of NORAD on 9/11 while running war games. ‘Stand down order’. “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary?”. Norman Minetta testimony. “Gave order to shootdown Flight 93.”, ‘NORAD Drills’.

5) 6 out of the 10 Commissioners believe the 9/11 Commission report was “Setup to fail” Co-Chairs Hamilton and Kean, “It was a 30 year conspiracy”, “The whitehouse has played cover up”, ‘Max Cleland resigned’, ‘John Farmer’.

6) FBI confiscated 84/85 Videos from the Pentagon. ‘Moussaoui trial’ revealed these videos. Released Pentagon Security Camera (FOIA) does not show a 757 and is clearly Missing a frame. ‘Sheraton Hotel’, “Double tree’, ‘Citgo”.

7) Osama Bin Laden was NOT wanted by the FBI for the 9/11 attacks. “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.” CIA created, trained and funded “Al Qaeda/Taliban” during the Mujahideen. OBL was a CIA asset named ‘Tim Osman’. OBL Reported dead in Dec 2001 (FOX).

8)100′s of Firefighters and witness testimony to BOMBS/EXPLOSIONS ignored by the 9/11 Commission Report. 9/11 Commission Report bars 503 1st responder eyewitnesses. “Explosions in the lobby and sub levels”, ‘Firefighter explosions’, ‘Barry Jennings’, ‘William Rodriguez’.

9) 100′s of firefighters and witness testimony to MOLTEN METAL ignored by the Commission report. “Like you’re in a foundry”, “NIST’s John Gross denies the existence of Molten Metal”, ‘Swiss Cheese’, “As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running.” Leslie Robertson’.

10) ’5 Dancing Israeli’s’ arrested in ‘Mossad Truck Bombs’ on 9/11 that stated “We were there to document the event.” ‘Urban Moving Systems’ front company, ‘Dominic Suter’. “$498,750 Business loan (June 2001)”. “Officer DeCarlo’, ‘Art Students’, ‘Israeli Spying’.

11) On September 10th, 2001. Rumsfeld reported $2.3 TRILLION missing from the Pentagon. ‘Dov Zakheim’ Pentagon Comptroller. Former VP of ‘Systems Planning Corporation’ (Flight Termination System). Signatore of PNAC document.

12) 220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials question the official story. ’9/11 Whistleblowers’, ‘Patriots for 9/11′. ‘Robert Bowman’, ‘Sibel Edmonds’, ‘Albert Stubblebine’, ‘Wesley Clark’, ‘Mark Dayton’, ‘Alan Sabrosky’, ‘Cyntha McKinney’, ‘Jesse Ventura’, ‘Kurt Sonnenfeld’. “patriotsquestion911.com”

13) Towers were built to withstand a Boeing jet(s). “I designed it for a 707 to hit it”, Leslie Robertson, WTC structural engineer. “Could probably sustain multiple impacts of jetliners”, “like a pencil puncturing screen netting” Frank De Martini, deceased Manager of WTC Construction & Project Management. “As far as a plane knocking a building over, that would not happen.” Charlie Thornton, Structural Engineer.

14) History of American False Flag attacks. ‘USS Liberty’, ‘Gulf of Tonkin’, ‘Operation Northwoods’, ‘OKC Bombing (Murrah Building)’, ’1993 WTC attacks’. ‘Patrick Clawson’. Project for the New American Century (PNAC) needed “a New Pearl Harbor”, “Rebuilding America’s Defenses”. 9/11 Achieved those goals.

15) BBC correspondent Jane Standley reported the collapse of WTC 7 (Soloman Brothers building) 20 minutes before it happened. CNN/FOX/MSNBC also had early reports. ‘BBC wtc 7′, ‘Jane Standley’, Ashleigh Banfield’.

16) “Flight 93″ debris was spread out over many miles. Cheney admits to giving the order to shootdown 93. “shot down the plane over Pennsylvania” Rumsfeld, “nothing that you could distinguish that a plane had crashed there” ‘Chris Konicki. “Not a drop of blood” Coroner Wallace Miller. “there was no plane.” Mayor Ernie Stull.

17) Bush hesitated for 441 days before starting the 911 Commission. ‘Jersey Girls’. ‘Phil Zelikow’ already wrote the outline before the commission began. Steel shipped over seas. Obstruction of justice. JFK and Pearl Harbor commissions were started within 7 days.

18) The 911 commission was given extremely limited funds. $15 million was given to investigate 9/11. (Over $60 Million was spent investigating Clintons’ affairs with Monica).

19) Bush said he watched the first plane crash into the North tower on TV before entering the classroom. “The TV was obviously on.” Was informed about the second impact while reading ‘My Pet Goat’ to the children. Remained for at least 8 more minutes while America was under “attack”.

20) The PATRIOT ACT was written before 9/11. Signed into law October 26th, 2001.

21) Marvin Bush was director of Stratasec (Securacom, ‘KuAm’) which was in charge of security of the WTC, United Airlines and Dulles International Airport. All three were breached on 9/11. ICTS was another company that provided security at the airports. ‘Wirt Walker’, ‘Ezra Harel’, ‘ICTS”, ‘WTC power downs’.

22) “Who killed John O’Neil?”. Former FBI task force agent investigating Al Qaeda/Bin Laden. Transferred by Kroll Corporation to head the security just before 9/11. John O’Neil died in the Towers. ‘Jerome Hauer’ ‘Jules Kroll’.

23) Insider trading based upon foreknowledge. ‘Put Options.’ Never identified insiders made millions. ‘United and American Airlines’ ‘Raytheon.’

24) At least 7 of the 19 listed highjackers are still alive (BBC). No video footage of 19 highjackers or passengers boarding the 4 planes. Pilots of the 4 planes never squawked the highjacking code. ‘Alive highjackers’, ‘ACARS’, ‘Pilots for 9/11 Truth’.

WTC 7 (The Smoking Gun)

Building 7 was a 47-story skyscraper and was part of the World Trade Center complex. Built in 1984, it would have been the tallest high-rise in 33 states in the United States. It collapsed at 5:20 pm on September 11, 2001 in 6.5 Seconds at free fall acceleration. It was not hit by an airplane and suffered minimal damage compared to other buildings much closer to the Twin Towers.

I am sure I speak for everyone here that all of them can be debunked and have been for quite awhile now.

The Big Dog 16th September 2013 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MileHighMadness (Post 9495037)
Wow...hot tub time machine...is it 2006?

Question...will ArchStanton return? Or was this a one shot troll post?

MHM

Seeing as how Arch debunked the first one off the bat, I do not believe he was trolling and look forward to his future contributions on the Forum.

beachnut 16th September 2013 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Border Reiver (Post 9495073)
This one is easy:

USS Liberty incident: Not a false flag - the aircraft and torpedo boats that misidentified and attacked the USS Liberty were clearly marked as Israeli. No war occurred, and within hours of the incident Israel was apologizing.

Gulf of Tonkin Incident: Not a false flag - On August 2 the North Vietnamese Navy and the USN did have a brief altercation, and on August 4, the USN did fire on more NVN vessels. The initial incident was the result of misinformation and bad target identification by the USN (a sonar operator mistaking the sound of the ships propeller for a torpedo, etc.).

Op Northwoods: Had it actually been carried out this would have been a false flag event (or rather events). The plan was rejected and never implemented.

The Murrah bombing(OKC Bombing): McVeigh and Nicols have claimed to have acted in concert to do the deed, and the damage was consist with their stated means (fertilizer bomb). There is no evidence that would suggest that the two were compelled to do so. Not a False flag.

the 93 WTC Bombing: AQ's first kick at the cat - straight up terrorist attack.

Patrick Clawson: An economist with no connection to government policy making says something stupid (ie that America provoke Iran into a war). Other than the fact that this guy got some press, how is it different from the drunk guy at the end of the bar muttering about those [insert category of persons here]?

PNAC Report: recommended that the US miltary be reformatted to be able to fight and win a two theatre war (among other recommendations). Having the capability to do something is not the same thing as doing the thing. Sort of like critical thinking and the person who created this list - they have the capability of doing so, but chose not to in favour of writing a list of 24 point that can be debunked....

Nice summary.

ArchStanton 16th September 2013 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MileHighMadness (Post 9495037)
Wow...hot tub time machine...is it 2006?

Question...will ArchStanton return? Or was this a one shot troll post?

MHM

Er.... read the post again. I was reposting a piece of troofer madness I've seen posted several times on my Facebook feed lately and asking people to rise to the bait of the troofers' 'challenge'. My own contribution is just the few pars in bold at the top.

beachnut 16th September 2013 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchStanton (Post 9495110)
Er.... read the post again. I was reposting a piece of troofer madness I've seen posted several times on my Facebook feed lately and asking people to rise to the bait of the troofers' 'challenge'. My own contribution is just the few pars in bold at the top.

Looks like Joe M. started this wave of zombie bites at the beginning of the year in his quest to save the world, http://www.collective-evolution.com/...ge-3/#comments
by "inspiring others to find joy and make changes in their lives. Hands down the only other thing I am this passionate about is baseball." Baseball and spreading woo.

Poor Joe, 12 years and can't figure out 911, but able to spread woo and have people repost his failure. Has anyone emailed Joe?

ozeco41 16th September 2013 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchStanton (Post 9494820)
...How many more of these "hard facts that cannot be debunked" can you debunk? ;)

Welcome to the forum Arch. I can debunk every one of the 24. Every single one of those 24 fails the "So what?" test.

They are all claims without demonstrated "relevance" - unless they are shown to be both true and relevant they are pointless speculation. By relevance I mean "If the fact is true what does it change about 9/11 explanations and how does it effect those explanations."

Now most members here will enjoy responding to "Is the claim true" at a technical level of detail. Let me illustrate by reference to #1 "Nano Thermite was found in the dust at Ground Zero."

Let's take the two aspects - and "Is it relevant?" first.
The only relevance to 9/11 explanations is if nano-thermite was used in CD of the WTC buildings. There was no CD. So even if there were 100 tonne stockpiles of thermXte in any form on ground zero at each corner of the twin towers - there was no CD. So it wasn't used for CD. So it is irrelevant. And that is valid logic despite the facetious way I express it. Put slightly more rigorously. There is no plausible hypothesis in favour of CD. Even if presence of thermXte is proven that is only one link in a causal chain of CD. The finding of thermXte does not of itself prove CD. The big challenge of "proving CD" remains and it has never been demonstrated, not even a plausible hypothesis to prima facie standard.

So #1 is defeated on grounds of relevance. BUT sadly from my perspective most members here wont accept that simple fact. They enjoy the detailed technical arguments and don't like simple facts which pre-empt the need for technical discussion. "They" (both sides :rolleyes:) want to be convinced whether the claim for thermXte in dust is true or false.

No matter how many times we point out that it is irrelevant most people won't get the message and will merrily go pursuing the truth in the details which is precisely where the truthers want to keep the debate. And going round in circles.

Is it true? (even though it is irrelevant! :rolleyes:)We have several threads related to dust. And an extensive lot of research into the scientific analyses. All of it pursuing the path that the truthers want us on. Chasing details round in circles. No doubt good science. No doubt to me that there was no thermXte in the dust. But irrelevant to WTC 9/11 collapses. Folk have lost sight of the fact that the only reason we are discussing thermXte is that one S Jones was losing "market prominence" to one R Gage and he needed a "rebranding" to raise his "market presence". He partly succeeded,. He is still way behind Gage in "exploiting the market"

So I'll >>> [/endpersonalrant] :blush: :D

You will see where I am coming from. And everyone of the 24 fails the relevance test independent of whether the single item of the claim is true or false.

Robrob 16th September 2013 03:32 PM

#24 has been debunked since about the end of September 2001.

ozeco41 16th September 2013 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beachnut (Post 9495136)
Baseball and spreading woo.

Both those obsessions on the same level to this English born Aussie.

Footballs are spherical and the game played with bat and ball has the initial letter "C"

:runaway

chrismohr 16th September 2013 03:48 PM

#13 Leslie Robertson did say the towers were built to withstand plane impacts (which they did) but he also has said the towers were NOT designed to withstand intense fires from the burning jet fuel etc. Oops.

000063 16th September 2013 04:20 PM

Time to First Lie: First point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozeco41 (Post 9495496)
Both those obsessions on the same level to this English born Aussie.

Footballs are spherical and the game played with bat and ball has the initial letter "C"

:runaway

Also, the planes they were struck by were both larger than the ones he had said they had been tested with, and didn't even exist when the towers were finished.

Brainster 16th September 2013 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGM (Post 9494836)
This is a lie by omission. The "9/11 Commission" was only one small part of the investigation. "Truthers" really don't like truth.

The total investigation cost over shadows the "BJ" investigation by orders of magnitude.

It's a lie on the other side as well. The $60 million spent by Ken Starr covered Whitewater, the firing of the White House travel office staff and the suicide death of Vincent Foster as well; I suspect the money spent investigating Monica was a small percentage of the total.

Quad4_72 16th September 2013 07:56 PM

What a complete *********** disaster of a list.

Fonebone 16th September 2013 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydeehess (Post 9494906)
The lie that stands out the most for me is that 7WTC collapsed in 6.5 seconds. Its as if the internal collapse, illustrated only after it had begun by the in falling of the rooftop structures, is not part of the collapse. Its a most dishonest piece of sophistry. Then there are the details left out that are inconvenient to the TM,
such as greater than free fall acceleration noted of 7WTC.

The truth is never inconvenient to a genuine truth-seeker.

Do you have a link to where this evidence that the 7WTC tower collapse exhibited
"greater than free fall speed acceleration "

is noted and documented ?

Why exactly would you feel this fact would be inconvenient to the "truth movement" ?

TJM 16th September 2013 09:09 PM

Here you go Fonebone.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com....php?tag=wtc+7

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...s.php?tag=wtc7

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...g=wtc+7+report

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...=wtc7+collapse

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...tag=WTC7+fires

Your answers are there, ad nauseam.


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