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-   -   Unconstitutional actions by fededal police in Portland? (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345489)

jimbob 16th July 2020 12:11 AM

Unconstitutional actions by fededal police in Portland?
 
I can't verify the video, but if it's true - is this action constitutional?

https://twitter.com/sparrowmedia/sta...36911307218948

Quote:

The Sparrow Project
@sparrowmedia
Militarized Federal Agents from a patchwork of outside agencies have begun policing Portland (in rented minivans vans) without the explicit approval of the mayor, the state, or local municipalities. This is what that looks like in practice:
There seems no way of identifying the officers - no ID numbers that I could see, just "Police" patches.

lomiller 16th July 2020 05:55 AM

It's been happening in other cities for a while
https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...rcement-302551

Many have no business doing actual police work

Quote:

Eagle-eyed protesters have identified some of them as belonging to Bureau of Prisons’ riot police units from Texas, but others remain a mystery.

jimbob 16th July 2020 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lomiller (Post 13158892)
It's been happening in other cities for a while
https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...rcement-302551

Many have no business doing actual police work

Nasty.

Aridas 17th July 2020 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 13158702)
I can't verify the video, but if it's true - is this action constitutional?

Honestly? I rather doubt that the Constitution actually weighs in on the matter in a directly meaningful way.

With that said - such tactics are despicable and should have no place in America and being used against American citizens. They would seem to be far more in line with terrorizing potential dissidents in occupied territory than they do with upholding society at home.

timhau 17th July 2020 03:17 AM

Reminds me of Crimea...

Jack by the hedge 17th July 2020 03:32 AM

What they're doing may be lawful or not, IDK, but when people have no way to tell whether a person is being arrested or kidnapped, that's pretty clearly a basic problem which ought to be addressed and I can't see why it shouldn't be. If these people are exercising the authority of police officers, they ought to be clearly identifiable as such.

SuburbanTurkey 17th July 2020 04:48 AM

I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing.

I'm sure when it comes time to threaten to shoot libs, they'll rediscover their principles.

Shocking no one, these people have no problem with tyranny so long as it's directed towards their political enemies. They only threaten murder against agents of the state when they do something truly ghastly, like attempt to collect past-due grazing fees.

timhau 17th July 2020 05:36 AM

As always, satirists were ahead of reality.

SuburbanTurkey 17th July 2020 10:53 AM

A definition of fascism I've see:

Quote:

In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/074.html

We're seeing the tactics of our endless wars on terror brought to the streets of America to crush dissent here just as we attempted to crush dissent abroad. Or in this example, border patrol secret police are using the tactics of terror they learned against S. American immigrants, but on the streets of Portland.

For decades, our federal government has been practicing the finer details of violent suppression abroad. Now Americans are seeing the same masterful application directed towards them.

Donal 17th July 2020 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13159891)
I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing.

I'm sure when it comes time to threaten to shoot libs, they'll rediscover their principles.

Shocking no one, these people have no problem with tyranny so long as it's directed towards their political enemies. They only threaten murder against agents of the state when they do something truly ghastly, like attempt to collect past-due grazing fees.

They are saving their ammo for real tyranny. Y'know, like healthcare.

carlitos 17th July 2020 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13159891)
I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing.

I'm sure when it comes time to threaten to shoot libs, they'll rediscover their principles.

Shocking no one, these people have no problem with tyranny so long as it's directed towards their political enemies. They only threaten murder against agents of the state when they do something truly ghastly, like attempt to collect past-due grazing fees.

This becomes quite clear when listening to the Alex Jones show in the Trump era. The guy has spent years warning about the coming police state, and now he defends all of this nonsense.

Thanks to the OP and others that pointed me to the articles - I hadn't seen this topic in the news somehow. Just read an article in Vice. I'd like more verification of the claims, but man this seems shady as hell. This kind of federal "law enforcement" activity isn't much of a progression from having ICE operating in cities, or redefining the "border" to include 2/3 of the USA.

Beerina 17th July 2020 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aridas (Post 13159814)
Honestly? I rather doubt that the Constitution actually weighs in on the matter in a directly meaningful way.

With that said - such tactics are despicable and should have no place in America and being used against American citizens. They would seem to be far more in line with terrorizing potential dissidents in occupied territory than they do with upholding society at home.


One law blog points out that this amounts to an arrest, apparently they are taken somewhere and questioned, and thus needs probable cause.

jimbob 17th July 2020 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beerina (Post 13160164)
One law blog points out that this amounts to an arrest, apparently they are taken somewhere and questioned, and thus needs probable cause.

That was why I thought the 5th had possibly been broken. And some of the attacks on protesters - or even householders might break the 8th as well

Stacyhs 17th July 2020 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13159891)
I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing.

I'm sure when it comes time to threaten to shoot libs, they'll rediscover their principles.

Shocking no one, these people have no problem with tyranny so long as it's directed towards their political enemies. They only threaten murder against agents of the state when they do something truly ghastly, like attempt to collect past-due grazing fees.

I've noticed that, too. Where is the outrage from our 'right-wing patriots' when Trump and/or his WH cronies sent U.S. Park Police and National Guard troops to use pepper bombs against peaceful protesters in Lafayette Park so he could have a photo op? Where is the outrage from them when DHS sent in federal troops to Portland, my city, when they were not asked to by either Gov. Brown or Mayor Wheeler? Neither want them here.

varwoche 17th July 2020 11:25 AM

It can't happen here. Right? That's what they say at least.

jimbob 17th July 2020 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13160194)
I've noticed that, too. Where is the outrage from our 'right-wing patriots' when Trump and/or his WH cronies sent U.S. Park Police and National Guard troops to use pepper bombs against peaceful protesters in Lafayette Park so he could have a photo op? Where is the outrage from them when DHS sent in federal troops to Portland, my city, when they were not asked to by either Gov. Brown or Mayor Wheeler? Neither want them here.

I thought they liked States' Rights

portlandatheist 17th July 2020 11:44 AM

This isn't even the worst of it. One protester was shot with a less-lethal projectile in the head and was bleeding profusely.

lomiller 17th July 2020 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 13160197)
I thought they liked States' Rights

They like it when States have the right to do things they agree with, they donít like it when States have the right to do things they disagree with.

This is nothing new. Eg. A frequent Republican proposal for Health insurance reform is to allow selling insurance across State lines. The thing is, this is something that would only come into play when the policy didnít meet the standard mandated by State law. If the policy met State standards, they can register the plan and start selling in that State already. The difference allowing polices to be sold across State lines would make would be that people could buy inferior policies being sold in other States, but not available locally.

IOW itís nothing but a massive swipe at State power and their ability to regulate their own health insurance standards.

Stacyhs 17th July 2020 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by portlandatheist (Post 13160221)

I remember reading a tweet where it was claimed the injured man had thrown the gas canister at the police and that's why he was shot. The video clearly shows that did not happen. The canister was thrown toward the protester which landed near him. He then rolled it back on the ground from the direction it came. It was directly after that he was shot with the rubber bullet and severely injured requiring face reconstructive surgery.

Trebuchet 17th July 2020 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by portlandatheist (Post 13160221)

Several people in earlier protests lost an eye. I'd bet money that the packaging on that "less lethal" ammo says not to aim at the head, but cops are doing it on purpose.

jond 17th July 2020 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13160248)
Several people in earlier protests lost an eye. I'd bet money that the packaging on that "less lethal" ammo says not to aim at the head, but cops are doing it on purpose.

Not cops, Trumpís secret police force. No markings, no one in Portlandís city or state government has any way of knowing who they are, or where they have come from. His acting head of homeland security is here spouting lies and refusing to talk to any city leaders. This is really bad stuff, but no doubt our resident ďpatriotsĒ think itís the right way to deal with protesters. (As opposed to how patriots who protest being forced to wear a mask and not be able to get a haircut get treated.)

SuburbanTurkey 17th July 2020 12:15 PM

It's a bit of a moot point, since these gestapo types are so heavily armed and in numbers to make any real resistance suicide, but would it even be a crime to resist these people with lethal force?

You basically have non-uniformed people claiming to be cops kidnapping people into unmarked vans. They have been reported to have refused identifying themselves and are arresting people without probable cause.


It would be trivially easy for a bad actor to impersonate these people and kidnap protesters under the pretense of lawful authority.

JoeMorgue 17th July 2020 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13160262)
It would be trivially easy for a bad actor to impersonate these people and kidnap protesters under the pretense of lawful authority.

At this point why even bother? Just become the lawful authority, at least that way you get a dental plan and you can still do the same stuff.

uke2se 17th July 2020 01:33 PM

It's fairly pointless to point out right wing hypocrisy in situations like this. Right wingers don't actually care if they are perceived as hypocrites. All that matters is winning, by any means necessary, including unconstitutional or illegal means. Right wingers don't care about principles except for when they can be used as a weapon against the left.

In other words, stop expecting these people to be principled or obey the law.

kookbreaker 17th July 2020 01:41 PM

So the folks who gave us Jade Helm & multiple UN takeover conspiracies are noticeably silent about all this.

Its OK, I've been assured that Trump isn't uniquely bad as a US President.

portlandatheist 17th July 2020 02:08 PM

Nobody wants them here including our governor, our senators, and our Mayor.

rockinkt 17th July 2020 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13160286)
At this point why even bother? Just become the lawful authority, at least that way you get a dental plan and you can still do the same stuff.

:D


Nominated!

Beelzebuddy 17th July 2020 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 13158702)
I can't verify the video, but if it's true - is this action constitutional?

Doesn't matter. Portland's within 100 miles of the ocean, that makes it a border, that makes this border enforcement, which can't be limited by the Constitution or the terrorists win.

The ACLU's been hammering this klaxon for decades, so far to no avail. But now that it's not just brown people's faces getting eaten maybe people will pay attention.

webfusion 17th July 2020 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by portlandatheist (Post 13160358)
Nobody wants them here including our governor, our senators, and our Mayor.

If you read interviews of people who live in N.Portland, they are glad that something is being done to take back their streets & parks.

Skeptic Ginger 17th July 2020 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timhau (Post 13159920)

That looks like a fun website, in a sad sort of way.

Skeptic Ginger 17th July 2020 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by portlandatheist (Post 13160358)
Nobody wants them here including our governor, our senators, and our Mayor.

This is what I don't understand. So Trump has ordered federal troops to take the law into their own hands without the consent of the police?

They are using the ruse it is to protect federal buildings and property.

Someone needs to limit the territory they are allowed to act in or something. The idea the federal government moving into cities in an aggressive act like this should scare the **** out of everyone.

Does Trump have an army of ICE, prison guards, federal agents and whoever is on his side to outgun the army and national guards?

I don't think so but what about an army of Trumpers slipping into positions like this?

When we were marching against GW's Iraq War these unmarked goons were here in Seattle. They were working with police.

Skeptic Ginger 17th July 2020 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webfusion (Post 13160461)
If you read interviews of people who live in N.Portland, they are glad that something is being done to take back their streets & parks.

That has a familiar ring to it.

First they came for the other guys, but I wasn't an other guy so I said nothing...

blutoski 17th July 2020 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13159891)
I can't help but notice that there's not so much as a peep from these ultra patriot types that have spent the better part of the last half century talking tough about the importance of an armed stand against tyrannical government. I guess the real thing isn't as appealing.

My impression is that they don't consider this to be an example of tyranny.

"Tyranny" looks like The Turner Diaries. Uppity negroes under the authority of the president who was appointed by the UN go house to house taking away white people's guns.

webfusion 17th July 2020 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13160475)
That has a familiar ring to it.

First they came for the other guys, but I wasn't an other guy so I said nothing...

Are you saying that the residents of this area have something to fear from these Federal agents making the effort to stop the mayhem around their homes & businesses that has been in evidence for weeks?

Skeptic Ginger 17th July 2020 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webfusion (Post 13160507)
Are you saying that the residents of this area have something to fear from these Federal agents making the effort to stop the mayhem around their homes & businesses that has been in evidence for weeks?

Yeah, I do.

First, they aren't stopping any mayhem as far as I can see.

Second, you have a police department. You have a mayor and a governor. They had the option of bringing in the National Guard.

Now all of a sudden you have the POTUS bringing in his own police force, unnamed, unidentified. Did Trump or said unnamed department get called in? Did they even consult with the area government?

Do you really want unnamed police there hauling off whoever they suspect?

It looks like they feel they have the right to arrest anyone. How do you know they aren't simply arresting Trump's political opponents? Or reporters? You just have faith?

What the hell is wrong with identifying themselves? What is that even about?

pgwenthold 17th July 2020 06:27 PM

Amazing how the people of Portland are so desperately concerned about graffiti on the walls of federal buildings and are grateful that federal officers have come to put a stop to it.

Beelzebuddy 17th July 2020 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 13160519)
Amazing how the people of Portland are so desperately concerned about graffiti on the walls of federal buildings and are grateful that federal officers have come to put a stop to it.

And that those same federal officers are so eager to lend assistance they've absentmindedly misplaced their identification in their rush to respond, and the unmarked vans were the only ones they could find the keys to.

Stacyhs 17th July 2020 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webfusion (Post 13160461)
If you read interviews of people who live in N.Portland, they are glad that something is being done to take back their streets & parks.

Citation, please, because I sincerely doubt your claim is true. N. Portland is a predominantly black area. I don't think they're happy that the government has sent in federal troops to arrest BLM protesters.

rdwight 17th July 2020 06:42 PM

Not a huge amount of info on this until last couple days. What possible reason would people agree with this? First off, yes, people should be able to defend themselves by any means when unmarked, and unannounced armed men try to detain and shove them into an unmarked van. I don't care if the ones detained were clearly criminals, this sort of enforcement is a scare tactic no one should agree with. Don't have the energy to research more on this tonight but this opinion stands no matter the circumstances or underlying reasoning.

varwoche 17th July 2020 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webfusion (Post 13160461)
If you read interviews of people who live in N.Portland, they are glad that something is being done to take back their streets & parks.

In other words, people are saying.


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