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-   -   Continuation Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341507)

Safe-Keeper 30th March 2020 04:57 PM

Quote:

More than 2,400 Americans had died by Sunday. Governors around the country are screaming for more assistance from the federal government. Trump? He obsesses over ratings. It is hard to comprehend how indifferent he is to human suffering.
Roll a d6:
1. butbutblackman!!
2. lol triggurd libs
3. but he closed border to Chinese people to **** out yellow virus!!
4. yes, but technically...
5. where were you when Crooked Hillary... (reverse whataboutism)
6. but it's a Democrat hoax!!

Bob001 3rd April 2020 11:38 AM

Donald and Dunning-Kruger:
Quote:

Donald Trump is the Dunning-Kruger president of the United States.

But he is also something much worse than that. Donald Trump is an almost perfect living, breathing example of the Dunning-Kruger effect: a president in a time of plague whose ignorance and stupidity are amplified through apparent and obvious mental illness as well as cruelty, compulsive lying, grand immorality, corruption and evil.
https://www.salon.com/2020/04/02/our...illing-people/

Bob001 3rd April 2020 11:44 AM

The latest from Dr. Lee:
Quote:

Dr. Lee, a forensic psychiatrist at Yale School of Medicine and editor of the bestseller "The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump," recently convened a panel on the coronavirus in her role as president of the World Mental Health Coalition. The panel discussed Trump's bungled response to the crisis and his attempts to downplay the threat posed by the pandemic.

The panel issued a "prescription for survival" arguing that Trump must be removed from office, whether through the 25th Amendment, a second congressional impeachment or his resignation. Alternatively, the panel recommended an intervention by mental health professionals or an act of Congress to establish a Coronavirus Crisis Department headed by the Centers for Disease Control to ensure the safety of the public.
https://www.salon.com/2020/04/02/yal...e-coronavirus/
https://worldmhc.org/prescription-for-survival/

bruto 3rd April 2020 11:58 AM

Of course everything can be argued in many ways, but I wonder, if one considers Trump's incompetence and cluelessness to have contributed to the high death rate in this country, how long the "yeah he's a clown but he's not dangerous" argument will keep flying.

Bob001 5th April 2020 08:06 AM

Trump as toddler:

Quote:

Trump’s toddler traits have significantly hampered America’s response to the pandemic. They aren’t new, either. In the first three years of his term, I’ve collected 1,300 instances when a Trump staffer, subordinate or ally — in other words, someone with a rooting interest in the success of Trump’s presidency — nonetheless described him the way most of us might describe a petulant 2-year-old. Trump offers the greatest example of pervasive developmental delay in American political history.
....
Trump’s short, toddler-like attention span has been a problem throughout his administration. One former high-ranking government official told me that a 45-minute meeting with the president was really 45 different one-minute meetings, in which Trump would ask disconnected, rapid-fire questions such as “What do you think of NATO?” and “How big is an aircraft carrier?” One book reported that Trump would interrupt his first chief of staff to pepper him with questions about badgers. That inability to focus laid the groundwork for the bad pandemic response. During the transition, the Obama administration prepared a tabletop exercise to brief the incoming Trump team about how to handle an influenza pandemic. The president-elect did not participate, and a former senior official acknowledged that “to get the president to be focused on something like this would be quite hard.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...63d_story.html

Bob001 5th April 2020 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 13043758)
Of course everything can be argued in many ways, but I wonder, if one considers Trump's incompetence and cluelessness to have contributed to the high death rate in this country, how long the "yeah he's a clown but he's not dangerous" argument will keep flying.

Who's making that argument? His belligerent ignorance, his contempt for the ordinary processes of government, his incitement of racism, his corruption and more made him dangerous from the day he was elected. We've just been lucky that a catastrophe didn't happen earlier. But it's here now, and we're all going to suffer deeply.

jimbob 5th April 2020 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13045731)

Interesting comparing him with the previous GOP president, who was ddeply wrong on many levels, but at least got some things right:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/geor...-prepare/story

Ladewig 5th April 2020 08:41 AM

I miss the president who would hand out nicknames like Guru (C. Rice), Ali (B.Boxer), and Hogan (J. McCain). Now we have a president who calls people Liddle’ Adam Schiff, Sleepy Joe Biden, and Lyon’ Ted Cruz.(OK, that last one isn’t too bad).

Ladewig 5th April 2020 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13038519)
The evidence piles uip:

Quote:

Originally Posted by www.washingtonpost.com

No one could make up a character as narcissistic and lacking in human empathy as President Trump. Trump’s own words make the point better than any analysis or commentary:


Some may remember the old Twilight Zone episode where a 7-year-old Billy Mumy had vast mental powers such as the ability to read minds and the ability to somewhat alter reality with his mind (he could wish someone dead). I shudder to think what the world-wide death toll would be if President Trump could kill people with his mind if he was upset.

bruto 5th April 2020 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13045736)
Who's making that argument? His belligerent ignorance, his contempt for the ordinary processes of government, his incitement of racism, his corruption and more made him dangerous from the day he was elected. We've just been lucky that a catastrophe didn't happen earlier. But it's here now, and we're all going to suffer deeply.

It certainly was never my argument, and I agree that he's been dangerous from the start. An armed bomb does not become dangerous only after it's exploded. But I think supporters of Trump or of his policies have made that argument. If the prestige has changed his mind, I haven't seen it here.

dasmiller 5th April 2020 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladewig (Post 13045775)
Some may remember the old Twilight Zone episode where a 7-year-old Billy Mumy had vast mental powers such as the ability to read minds and the ability to somewhat alter reality with his mind (he could wish someone dead). I shudder to think what the world-wide death toll would be if President Trump could kill people with his mind if he was upset.

His mind wouldn't scare me so much. Now, if he could kill with his ego . . .

Stacyhs 5th April 2020 04:29 PM

I put this is the Trump Presidency thread but it seemed appropriate here, too, because the psychiatrist is Bandy Lee.

Psychiatrist: Trump Supporters Think Like Five Year Olds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qACQ7PqrXqE

ETA: link corrected

xjx388 5th April 2020 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13046188)
I put this is the Trump Presidency thread but it seemed appropriate here, too, because the psychiatrist is Bandy Lee.

Psychiatrist: Trump Supporters Think Like Five Year Olds
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=541417133174111


I don’t see what you are referring to at that FB link, but it’s always a sign of professionalism when the insults start flying, huh?

Stacyhs 5th April 2020 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13046205)
I don’t see what you are referring to at that FB link, but it’s always a sign of professionalism when the insults start flying, huh?

Sorry... this is the correct link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qACQ7PqrXqE

Maybe you should wait until you actually see what she says before commenting.

xjx388 5th April 2020 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13046228)
Sorry... this is the correct link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qACQ7PqrXqE

Maybe you should wait until you actually see what she says before commenting.


That doesn’t change anything at all. She is “psychoanalyzing” Trump followers and concluding on very limited evidence and without actually, you know, talking to any of them, that they display primitive moral reasoning that the “rest of us” grow out of by age 5.

Sounds fancy but it’s an insult. She is stereotyping. Kind of like “black people are scary; Jews are money hungry; Mexicans are lazy.” “Trump supporters are as immature as 4 year olds.”

Real professional there, Dr. Lee. She lowers the integrity of the medical profession every time she speaks.

Stacyhs 5th April 2020 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13046240)
That doesn’t change anything at all. She is “psychoanalyzing” Trump followers and concluding on very limited evidence and without actually, you know, talking to any of them, that they display primitive moral reasoning that the “rest of us” grow out of by age 5.

Sounds fancy but it’s an insult. She is stereotyping. Kind of like “black people are scary; Jews are money hungry; Mexicans are lazy.” “Trump supporters are as immature as 4 year olds.”

Real professional there, Dr. Lee. She lowers the integrity of the medical profession every time she speaks.

That's funny...and wrong. What she said isn't stereotyping, it's based on Kohlberg's The Stages of Moral Development:

Quote:

Kohlberg’s Stages of Moral Development

Stage 1: (From about age 2-3 to about age 5-6):The Stage of Punishment and Obedience or “Might Makes Right”.
https://www.rcgates.com/psyc/c13_add.html

xjx388 5th April 2020 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13046268)
That's funny...and wrong. What she said isn't stereotyping, it's based on Kohlberg's The Stages of Moral Development:


https://www.rcgates.com/psyc/c13_add.html


You can dress it up in whatever academic ******** you like. She is still stereotyping a whole group of people based on nothing but her own biases. I doubt she’s ever actually met a Trump supporter, much less done assessments on them. She merely judges them from afar and insults them. I guess that’s what you want from medical professionals.

Stacyhs 5th April 2020 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13046342)
You can dress it up in whatever academic ******** you like. She is still stereotyping a whole group of people based on nothing but her own biases. I doubt she’s ever actually met a Trump supporter, much less done assessments on them. She merely judges them from afar and insults them. I guess that’s what you want from medical professionals.

Ah..."the best defense is a good offense tactic". Excellent. I show that what Dr Lee said is based on accepted academic study and you call it "academic ********".
Speaking of biases, you might want to look at your own since you've been going after Dr. Lee and her colleagues since the beginning of the thread. You've been harping on the Goldwater Rule as if mental health professionals can't recognize a malignant narcissist unless they've met them in person.

xjx388 5th April 2020 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13046350)
Ah..."the best defense is a good offense tactic". Excellent. I show that what Dr Lee said is based on accepted academic study and you call it "academic ********".

Are you saying that Dr. Lee has administered the Moral Judgement Interview to enough Trump supporters to make a professional judgement about all of them? If not, then I don't see how Kohlberg's scale is relevant. So yeah, if she is inappropriately using Kohlberg's model, then it's academic and psuedoprofessional ********.
Quote:

Speaking of biases, you might want to look at your own since you've been going after Dr. Lee and her colleagues since the beginning of the thread. You've been harping on the Goldwater Rule as if mental health professionals can't recognize a malignant narcissist unless they've met them in person.
I fully admit to a bias against medical professionals who act unethically and outside the standards of their profession. You caught me.

Stacyhs 5th April 2020 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13046375)
Are you saying that Dr. Lee has administered the Moral Judgement Interview to enough Trump supporters to make a professional judgement about all of them? If not, then I don't see how Kohlberg's scale is relevant. So yeah, if she is inappropriately using Kohlberg's model, then it's academic and psuedoprofessional ********.

Wait....I thought it was '"academic ********" but now you want to use the Moral Judgment Interview from the very same source?

Quote:

I fully admit to a bias against medical professionals who act unethically and outside the standards of their profession. You caught me.
Heheheheh....yeah....we've had pages and pages of that self-righteous stance. But, in the immortal words of Rhett Butler: Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. Toodles!

xjx388 6th April 2020 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13046465)
Wait....I thought it was '"academic ********" but now you want to use the Moral Judgment Interview from the very same source?

Well sure...if she is actually using Kohlberg’a theories as the basis of her statement, then I would expect her to have actually, you know, used the tool on a sampling of Trump supporters. Otherwise, it’s academic BS; more remote assessment of people she’s never met.

To delve a little deeper, the majority of the audience for her statement has never heard of Kohlberg and his theories about moral judgement. I’d wager you’d never heard of it until blutoski brought it up in another thread. I think you are using Kohlberg as window dressing to make her statement seem more serious. I call BS on that: she is stereotyping a group of people based on her biases -plain and simple. If you understood anything about Kohlberg’s theories, you would understand what a misapplication it is to use it in the way that you assert she did.
Quote:

Heheheheh....yeah....we've had pages and pages of that self-righteous stance. But, in the immortal words of Rhett Butler: Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. Toodles!
To quote a popular song from a few years later...”I’ve heard that song before.”

Bob001 9th April 2020 08:33 AM

An interview with another shrink:
Quote:

I think he is the least free man. You and I have some degree of choice about how we're going to behave and react to the world around us; we are complex and we make complex decisions because we have a conscience and we care about the effects of our actions on others. Donald Trump, in contrast, is very simple. Everything he says or does is for himself, either to have power over others or to hurt them in revenge against their disagreeing or standing in his way. Because he has shown himself to be incapable of either conscience or empathy, he is basically a predator, lacking the most essential parts of our humanity.

Despite this, he has two techniques that have allowed him to be successful in business and politics: He is a bully, and he lies continuously. Repeating his lies over and over is like the "big lie" technique made famous by Hitler. It works because when a lie is endlessly repeated, even decent people assume there must be some truth in it.
https://www.salon.com/2020/04/09/dr-...-be-in-prison/

xjx388 9th April 2020 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13050455)


“Another shrink,” turns out to be one of the same ol’ shrinks who make the rounds. It would be something if a new voice popped out of the woodwork.

Lurch 9th April 2020 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13050736)
“Another shrink,” turns out to be one of the same ol’ shrinks who make the rounds. It would be something if a new voice popped out of the woodwork.

Really? That there are the voices there are causes you no impulse to consider that there may be reason for concern?

How many such voices would you require? Would more folk raising alarums result in your resetting your expectations for yet more?

Consider for a moment those 1000 prosecutors who signed a letter stating that they considered evidence against Trump sufficient to warrant indictment. After the impeachment saga result, it's clear Republicans will not let such competent opinion sway them.

If but a fraction of what is written and said by *professionals* on Trump would have been directed at Obama, how would your tune have sounded? We can be sure Republicans and their supporters would have collectively screeched and howled.

jimbob 10th April 2020 06:26 AM

And it's getting to be a moot point.

The OP in this thread was claiming out that Trump has a mental condition would lead him to act in a way that's dangerous.

His response to COVID-19 has certainly demonstrated some really bizarre behaviour and also some actions that have made the situation worse, which will lead to the needlessly avoidable deaths of thousands of Americans.

Without his bizarre behaviour, it might be difficult to claim he wasn't just utterly callous. With it, the simplest explanation is some form of mental illness. I'm going for some type of dementia, on top of almost textbook NPD.

blutoski 11th April 2020 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch (Post 13051006)
Really? That there are the voices there are causes you no impulse to consider that there may be reason for concern?

How many such voices would you require? Would more folk raising alarums result in your resetting your expectations for yet more?

Consider for a moment those 1000 prosecutors who signed a letter stating that they considered evidence against Trump sufficient to warrant indictment. After the impeachment saga result, it's clear Republicans will not let such competent opinion sway them.

If but a fraction of what is written and said by *professionals* on Trump would have been directed at Obama, how would your tune have sounded? We can be sure Republicans and their supporters would have collectively screeched and howled.

It doesn't take much. One Republican showed up at a pizza parlour with a firearm because 'some anonymous guy on the internet' said there was a pedophile dungeon in the basement.

Bob001 18th April 2020 03:17 PM

How can anyone watch one of Dear Leader's press conferences without concluding that he is truly insane? Right now -- at an event intended to provide the latest information about the pandemic that's killing thousands of Americans -- he's ranting about states that wanna take your guns, how he saved us from nuclear war with North Korea, how his good friend Putin helped him save zillions of American jobs, and how if Biden is elected Iran (or maybe China, it wasn't clear) "will own us." This isn't conservatism; this is madness.

A journalist's view:
Quote:

Psychologists warn of the deadly consequences of the "silent partner" in abusive homes. When a father beats or sexually assaults a child, the family will often react by refusing to discuss the abuse, allowing silence to enable the predator and protect against confronting a reality that is too painful and frightening.

The United States of America is now an abusive household. Donald Trump is the lunatic authority figure stalking and traumatizing the victims — the American people — while the Democratic Party, along with the mainstream media, act as the silent partner.

It becomes increasingly evident, with Trump's every social media post, public utterance and policy directive, that our president suffers from a severe form of mental illness. His insanity threatens millions of lives, and has become particularly dangerous during the most devastating public health crisis in the last 100 years.

For all the criticism that Democrats and pundits advance against Trump, their refusal to state the obvious forces the American public to feel as if we are the ones confined to a mental institution. It also emboldens Trump, even as he prioritizes his fragile ego, his compulsion to appear infallible and political expediency above the lives of countless human beings.
https://www.salon.com/2020/04/18/tru...that-out-loud/

varwoche 18th April 2020 03:21 PM

Belongs here too...

"If I wasn't elected maybe the world would be over."

Lurch 18th April 2020 05:09 PM

What astounds me is that the US nominally possesses a few mechanisms by which to remove a mad leader. But collectively the country is in a kind of stupor, as though it has a divinely ordained King who is beyond the reproach of mortal Man.

Stacyhs 19th April 2020 02:02 PM

The Dems tried to get rid of him by impeaching him. But the real enablers here are the Republicans led by Mitch McConnell.

Safe-Keeper 23rd April 2020 04:55 PM

I wonder if it's also a limitation of the two-party system. It allows a corrupt party to wield roughly half the parliament/congress/senate power and thus obstruct impeachment and other counter-corruption attempts.

3point14 24th April 2020 01:25 AM

Is anybody going to contend that suggesting using disinfectant intraveinously is the act of a sane man?

(this should be good...)

The Don 24th April 2020 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 13066858)
Is anybody going to contend that suggesting using disinfectant intraveinously is the act of a sane man?

(this shold be good...)

I'll bite.....

He's not insane, just ignorant.

He sees that disinfectant is effective at killing Coronavirus. People with Coronavirus need to have it killed so why not see whether "disinfectant" can be introduced into the human body.

Maybe it's not literally a name-brand disinfectant but maybe some medically-safe substance that does a similar job. Maybe he's just suggesting that the scientific Poindexters take a lead from a real-world can-do guy like himself and investigate some out of the box alternatives because whatever they're doing isn't working fast enough for the Great American People.

I can see, many months or years down the road, that there possibly may be a treatment for Coronavirus which chemically attacks the Coronavirus in-situ, a bit like a disinfectant. President Trump will proudly proclaim that it's his brilliant idea and that he has the greatest mind of all time ignoring the minor details that:
  • The treatment was under development months before his ridiculous utterances
  • The treatment isn't a disinfectant, it's a poorly chosen analogy to try and educate the scientifically illiterate and hard of understanding - like President Trump
  • It isn't injected, it's administered by other means
  • The development of, testing of and distribution of the treatment wasn't inspired or helped by President Trump in any way, shape or form

3point14 24th April 2020 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13066877)
I'll bite.....

He's not insane, just ignorant.

That can't be right. According to no lesser authority than the man himself, he knows more about everything than anyone.

TragicMonkey 24th April 2020 05:06 AM

Trump is getting stupider, crazier, or both. If the White House staff don't hide the bleach and detergent he's going to injure himself. The days of relying on the Mr Yuk stickers are over.

bruto 24th April 2020 06:39 AM

Just remember, though, that he's not dangerous. Oh no.

3point14 24th April 2020 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 13067050)
Just remember, though, that he's not dangerous. Oh no.

You can't know that! You haven't examined him!!


Just cos a man who, sincerely, you'll note, claims to be an expert in everything has just suggested intravenous strong cleaning agents as a medical procedure that doesn't make him ******* crazy, it just means he...


No, I can't do it. I can't find any way to end that sentence. Someone else will be along in a minute to do it for me, probably. Although maybe this is even a little too difficult to rustle up an ad hoc defence in a hurry. They might need a while.

Safe-Keeper 24th April 2020 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 13067050)
Just remember, though, that he's not dangerous. Oh no.

ya i know rite? Yes, it's theoretically possible he's just pretending to be going crazy and demented. For what purpose, I do not know. Seems an odd thing for a narcissist to be doing, but yes, it's possible.

Occam's razor, though.

The Don 24th April 2020 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 13067059)
You can't know that! You haven't examined him!!


Just cos a man who, sincerely, you'll note, claims to be an expert in everything has just suggested intravenous strong cleaning agents as a medical procedure that doesn't make him ******* crazy, it just means he...


No, I can't do it. I can't find any way to end that sentence. Someone else will be along in a minute to do it for me, probably. Although maybe this is even a little too difficult to rustle up an ad hoc defence in a hurry. They might need a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper (Post 13067069)
ya i know rite? Yes, it's theoretically possible he's just pretending to be going crazy and demented. For what purpose, I do not know. Seems an odd thing for a narcissist to be doing, but yes, it's possible.

Occam's razor, though.

No doubt his supporters would say that he wasn't directly advocating injecting cleaning products or placing UV sources in the lungs, he was suggesting that scientists maybe think outside the box and explore ways to directly attack Coronavirus chemically or with radiation.

Chemotherapy and radiotherapy are effective treatments for cancer so why not explore their use in the fight against Coronavirus ?

President Trump is a visionary whose job it is to provide the vital catalyst to the people working to address Coronavirus, not to work through the minutiae of each particular thread. That's not to say that he couldn't do exactly that - after all his uncle was an MIT professor and those around him are continually amazed by his intellect and knowledge - but his responsibilities are so broad that it would be irresponsible for him to concentrate on just one thing.

;) :rolleyes:

Masque 24th April 2020 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 13067059)
You can't know that! You haven't examined him!!


Just cos a man who, sincerely, you'll note, claims to be an expert in everything has just suggested intravenous strong cleaning agents as a medical procedure that doesn't make him ******* crazy, it just means he...


No, I can't do it. I can't find any way to end that sentence. Someone else will be along in a minute to do it for me, probably. Although maybe this is even a little too difficult to rustle up an ad hoc defence in a hurry. They might need a while.

Let me help...

You're forgetting that he has to be taken seriously, but not literally. So, when another speaker points out that bleach or isopropyl alcohol are effective disinfectants for the corona virus, and Trump then says "let's inject ourselves with disinfectants", he is not actually talking about the two disinfectants that were just mentioned in front of him, and that are probably the only two disinfectants he could name if you asked him; no, because that would be ******* crazy and we start from the irrefutable assumption that Trump is not ******* crazy. So it then becomes our responsibility to replace what we thought was a clear reference to bleach and isopropyl alcohol with a reference to something that makes some kind of sense, and which we should have known was what he really meant if only our mental processes were as deep as his.

HTH.


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