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-   -   Criminal Charges Against Trump (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347810)

eerok 6th November 2020 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13284877)
Why would that be the last thing? I'd say if you want to see USA democracy "repaired" and if Trump should be taken to trial then Biden needs to move heaven and earth to have him put on trial, the example has to be set.

I don't disagree, but I don't think Biden will see it that way. He's more like the kindly grandpa who wants everyone to get along. Also, traditionally presidents have pardoned other presidents in the US.

Brainster 6th November 2020 05:27 PM

As with almost everything else, the outcome will completely surprise you. I predict no charges will be filed against him.

eerok 6th November 2020 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brainster (Post 13284885)
As with almost everything else, the outcome will completely surprise you. I predict no charges will be filed against him.

That wouldn't surprise me, but there's more than one jurisdiction, so I wouldn't put money on it.

dirtywick 6th November 2020 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13284877)
Why would that be the last thing? I'd say if you want to see USA democracy "repaired" and if Trump should be taken to trial then Biden needs to move heaven and earth to have him put on trial, the example has to be set.

They tried to impeach him and failed. They blew that one. Itís too bad and not fair but it happened. A redo on impeachment would stink of the same politically motivated abuse of the federal government that Trump has been abusing his whole presidency. 70M voting Americans are going to see it that way. 6 SC justices might see it that way too. Then what?

Thereís a chance to diffuse the situation. I didnít vote for Biden for 4 more years of Trump dysfunction except this time around itís ďmy guyĒ. They can simply get him with existing investigations and spend his political capital productively.

dudalb 6th November 2020 05:45 PM

Trump might be facing a whole slew of charges that have nothing to do with his presidency.

eerok 6th November 2020 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13284918)
Trump might be facing a whole slew of charges that have nothing to do with his presidency.

Well, Trump has been a scofflaw his whole life, so I'd expect so. These might not flow directly from the new DOJ, but yeah, he's vulnerable now.

EHocking 6th November 2020 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13284841)
Cruel but accurate. He'd never use this as a legal defence, though, due to his ego problems.

Hmmmm, dunno.
Think of all the arrogant, narcissistic, misogynistic and criminal bastards who suddenly develop medical issues as soon as they are pulled up in front of a court. From despots to film producers. Catholic priests to journalistic activists.

All these manly ********* all suddenly end up needing oxygen and a walking frame to appear.

Although you could be right, Trumpís ego may even be stronger than his cowardice. Certainly stronger than his common sense.

eerok 6th November 2020 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EHocking (Post 13285035)
Hmmmm, dunno.
Think of all the arrogant, narcissistic, misogynistic and criminal bastards who suddenly develop medical issues as soon as they are pulled up in front of a court. From despots to film producers. Catholic priests to journalistic activists.

All these manly ********* all suddenly end up needing oxygen and a walking frame to appear.

Although you could be right, Trumpís ego may even be stronger than his cowardice. Certainly stronger than his common sense.

I suppose that even a desire for self-preservation could trump one's ego, so to speak. You have to factor in that he's an idiot, though. It's a hard call.

EHocking 6th November 2020 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13285040)
I suppose that even a desire for self-preservation could trump one's ego, so to speak. You have to factor in that he's an idiot, though. It's a hard call.

Iíve said it before.

I look forward to visuals of Trump being bodily dragged from the WH ala Assange from an embassy.

The Atheist 6th November 2020 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EHocking (Post 13285057)
Iíve said it before.

I look forward to visuals of Trump being bodily dragged from the WH ala Assange from an embassy.

Pick me! Pick me!

I'd sling that prick over my shoulders and dump him the footpath outside like last week's trash.

Which he is!

eerok 6th November 2020 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EHocking (Post 13285057)
Iíve said it before.

I look forward to visuals of Trump being bodily dragged from the WH ala Assange from an embassy.

Well, one can dream.

Bob001 6th November 2020 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13284884)
I don't disagree, but I don't think Biden will see it that way. He's more like the kindly grandpa who wants everyone to get along. Also, traditionally presidents have pardoned other presidents in the US.

"Traditionally?" Where does that come from? It's only happened once: Ford pardoned Nixon, and it probably cost him his own election.

Most presidents haven't needed to be pardoned.

eerok 6th November 2020 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13285072)
"Traditionally?" Where does that come from? It's only happened once: Ford pardoned Nixon, and it probably cost him his own election.

Most presidents haven't needed to be pardoned.

It was Nixon I was thinking about. I should've referred to this as "precedent."

Segnosaur 6th November 2020 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13285076)
It was Nixon I was thinking about. I should've referred to this as "precedent."

A couple of differences though....

- as bad as Nixon was, he at least did some good... Opened relations with China, created the EPA, etc. Trump was all failure, all grift, all the time.

- Nixon resigned. Granted it was after the GOP turned on him, but at least he did reach the point where he realized enough was enough. Trump is hanging on till the end, and will probably keep hurting the US long after he leaves office

- Trump has engaged in more crimes (and arguably worse crimes) than Nixon. And many of his crimes pre-date his time in office.




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eerok 6th November 2020 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13285091)
A couple of differences though....

- as bad as Nixon was, he at least did some good... Opened relations with China, created the EPA, etc. Trump was all failure, all grift, all the time.

- Nixon resigned. Granted it was after the GOP turned on him, but at least he did reach the point where he realized enough was enough. Trump is hanging on till the end, and will probably keep hurting the US long after he leaves office

- Trump has engaged in more crimes (and arguably worse crimes) than Nixon. And many of his crimes pre-date his time in office.

I absolutely agree that Tricky Dick, for all his faults, was a better man, and a better president, than Trump ... even though Nixon was the cartoon villain of my generation.

Meadmaker 6th November 2020 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13284780)
That will probably be the case.

Not necessarily.

First of all, tax and financial crimes far too often get overlooked, and it does take time to build a case. (Remember, Manafort went years before his crimes were uncovered, and if it wasn't for his connection with Stubby Mcbonespurs, he might never have been charged.) Its possible that there are some potentially big crimes that Trump could be charged with, but have simply been overlooked. And how long did the Trump foundation function before people started seriously looking into its crimes?

And as for 'revealing the evidence', usually prosecutors want to avoid revealing details of their investigation prior to trial.

Usually the target of the investigation is not the President of the United States, who they couldn't prosecute if they wanted to, but they could tell Congress about the evidence.


However, this is all speculation on my part. If he hasn't paid the taxes he owed, "Lock! Him! Up!....Lock! Him! Up!"

(Aside: I truly hated the lock him/her up chants. An angry mob incited to hate with no actual knowledge of anything. It was about as ant-democratic as it could get.)

Segnosaur 6th November 2020 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13285107)
Usually the target of the investigation is not the President of the United States, who they couldn't prosecute if they wanted to, but they could tell Congress about the evidence.

If you were a prosecutor going after stubby Mcbonespurs, why would you bother telling Congress? 5the republicans held the senate, so regardless of the evidence, Trump was never going to be impeached. And telling Congress might give trump an advantage in a trial... His congressional allies would tell him the evidence so he could respond better.

So better to investigate, keep details private, then prosecute when trump is out of office




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Meadmaker 6th November 2020 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13285131)
Trump was never going to be impeached.

We'll never know.

My opinion is that if there was blatant tax evasion, public support would have dwindled, and his Senate support would turn on him, just like it did on Nixon.

It would have to be pretty blatant though.


I know a lot of people think Trump's various alleged crimes were already pretty blatant, but I don't see it that way.

Anyway, all speculation.

Although, I was talking with my sister the other night about what kind of stunts Trump could pull as a lame duck, and we agreed he was the sort of person who might try something so far out of line in an attempt to get the election overturned that they would have to pull some sort of emergency impeachment. Fantasy? Almost certainly, but this is Trump we're talking about.

smartcooky 6th November 2020 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13285150)
We'll never know.

My opinion is that if there was blatant tax evasion, public support would have dwindled, and his Senate support would turn on him, just like it did on Nixon.

It would have to be pretty blatant though.


I know a lot of people think Trump's various alleged crimes were already pretty blatant, but I don't see it that way.

Anyway, all speculation.

Although, I was talking with my sister the other night about what kind of stunts Trump could pull as a lame duck, and we agreed he was the sort of person who might try something so far out of line in an attempt to get the election overturned that they would have to pull some sort of emergency impeachment. Fantasy? Almost certainly, but this is Trump we're talking about.

Or invoke the 25th Amendment, on the basis that it is so-far out of line, the only reasonable expanation would be because the President must have had a mental breakdown and be incapable of carrying out the duties of POTUS... I'm sure they would have no trouble finding a doctor to certify that!

Of course, many of us know he has been incapable of carrying out the duties of POTUS since the day he was elected.

The Great Zaganza 6th November 2020 10:12 PM

Cheating at Golf - have his Golf Cart driving license revoked.

Segnosaur 6th November 2020 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13285150)
We'll never know.



My opinion is that if there was blatant tax evasion, public support would have dwindled, and his Senate support would turn on him, just like it did on Nixon.

.

The public already got a peak at Trump's tax info (via the NYT article), with hints of tax fraud. His approval ratings didn't fall below 40%. This is in addition to all his other fraud... Trump U. And his foundation... Both of which went to court (and trump lost both cases), and still he kept an approval rating of ~40%. And without his base turning on him, the senate won't either.

MAGAchuds are just too idiotic to change their opinion over a little thing like criminal activities. Now if trump wore a tan suit...


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Dave Rogers 7th November 2020 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13284688)
I think this is all things Biden will avoid doing. Letting the ongoing financial investigations play out is a better call for him. They can result in prison time and dismantling of the Trump empire without Biden having to be accused of any wrong doing by virtue of not being involved since these were initiated before he became president.

The problem with that is, the moment anyone brings any charges against Trump, he will instantly make those accusations against Biden anyway, and all his supporters will believe him.

Dave

Segnosaur 7th November 2020 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 13285272)
The problem with that is, the moment anyone brings any charges against Trump, he will instantly make those accusations against Biden anyway, and all his supporters will believe him.



Dave

Yeah but here is the thing... Trump will still accuse Biden if crimes, even if Trump isn't charged with anything.

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The Atheist 7th November 2020 02:15 AM

We have a contender: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-...b64c88d400b2a5

The Great Zaganza 7th November 2020 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13285294)

nothingburger.

Trump and cohorts have been declared to be in violation of the Hatch Act countless times.

psionl0 7th November 2020 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13284613)
I wonder if an impeachment counts as trial for Double Jeopardy purposes.


It doesn't:
Quote:

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
Article 1 Section 3 of the Constitution

Darat 7th November 2020 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13284892)
They tried to impeach him and failed. They blew that one. Itís too bad and not fair but it happened. A redo on impeachment would stink of the same politically motivated abuse of the federal government that Trump has been abusing his whole presidency. 70M voting Americans are going to see it that way. 6 SC justices might see it that way too. Then what?



Thereís a chance to diffuse the situation. I didnít vote for Biden for 4 more years of Trump dysfunction except this time around itís ďmy guyĒ. They can simply get him with existing investigations and spend his political capital productively.

Totally disagree, that attitude is the reason that people like Trump I. e. the "elite" get away with what they do time and time again. You can only have a fair and equitable society when every one faces the same consequences.

dirtywick 7th November 2020 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13285312)
Totally disagree, that attitude is the reason that people like Trump I. e. the "elite" get away with what they do time and time again. You can only have a fair and equitable society when every one faces the same consequences.

Iíve been wrong before, many times. Iíd be open to hearing out how that would work. I canít see a good ending to Biden spending his first term rehashing impeachment with a 6-3 conservative SC.

Garrison 7th November 2020 03:19 AM

I think he may avoid charges if those who have been suggesting there is a clear deterioration in Trump's mental faculties over the last few months turn out to be correct.

Darat 7th November 2020 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13285319)
Iíve been wrong before, many times. Iíd be open to hearing out how that would work. I canít see a good ending to Biden spending his first term rehashing impeachment with a 6-3 conservative SC.

How on earth is seeing someone (if there are grounds of course) prosecuted for crimes is in any way equivalent to the "4 years of dysfunction" of the Trump presidential term?

Darat 7th November 2020 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13285323)
I think he may avoid charges if those who have been suggesting there is a clear deterioration in Trump's mental faculties over the last few months turn out to be correct.

"last few months"? You mean the last 4 years?

dirtywick 7th November 2020 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13285325)
How on earth is seeing someone (if there are grounds of course) prosecuted for crimes is in any way equivalent to the "4 years of dysfunction" of the Trump presidential term?

First of all, he is being investigated and, if there are grounds, prosecuted for crimes right now. My position is to continue to do that and have Biden focus on being the president. What I donít want Biden to do is to rehash the impeachment. Thatís a path to a dysfunctional government where Trump is the center of the universe for another 4 years and Biden is fighting ghosts of a presidency he defeated at the polls. Thatís what I donít want.

psionl0 7th November 2020 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13285328)
First of all, he is being investigated and, if there are grounds, prosecuted for crimes right now. My position is to continue to do that and have Biden focus on being the president. What I don’t want Biden to do is to rehash the impeachment. That’s a path to a dysfunctional government where Trump is the center of the universe for another 4 years and Biden is fighting ghosts of a presidency he defeated at the polls. That’s what I don’t want.

Yep. There is nothing to be gained by retrying an impeachment that has already failed. Even if it were to succeed, the only penalty would be removal from office which would only matter if Trump got re-elected (and he only has two chances at that - buckleys and none).

Whether there are grounds to indict Trump would be up to the appropriate authorities and not politicians.

alfaniner 7th November 2020 07:44 AM

I'm hoping that Biden doesn't play nice and say "Let's all just forget it and move on" (even though he would have no input or affect on the State indictments). If he won't insist on The PDJT being charged with everything possible, I'd rather he not say anything about it and just let due process take its course.

eerok 7th November 2020 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaniner (Post 13285439)
I'm hoping that Biden doesn't play nice and say "Let's all just forget it and move on" (even though he would have no input or affect on the State indictments). If he won't insist on The PDJT being charged with everything possible, I'd rather he not say anything about it and just let due process take its course.

It's very possible that Biden will pardon Trump IMO.

Segnosaur 7th November 2020 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13285294)

According to the Wikipedia page, the hatch act does not apply to the president and vice president.

Unless prosecutors make it a charge of conspiracy (ie trying to get others in the administration to violate the act) I think Stubby Mcbonespurs is safe from prosecution from it.

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Susheel 7th November 2020 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13285452)
According to the Wikipedia page, the hatch act does not apply to the president and vice president.

Unless prosecutors make it a charge of conspiracy (ie trying to get others in the administration to violate the act) I think Stubby Mcbonespurs is safe from prosecution from it.

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Interesting. Does Lindsey Graham's solicitation for election donations during a senate hearing fall under its purview?

Segnosaur 7th November 2020 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 13285457)
Interesting. Does Lindsey Graham's solicitation for election donations during a senate hearing fall under its purview?

I am not sure if it is part of the hatch act (it might only apply to certain employees and administration members) or some other law, but it is still illegal.

ETA: upon more research, it does look like it was the hatch act.

https://www.newsweek.com/lindsey-gra...ilding-1539300

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slyjoe 7th November 2020 08:24 AM

Question - at one point I thought Mueller returned a sealed indictment. I though there was speculation it was directed at Trump, but wouldn't be unsealed/filed until he was out of office. Whatever happened there?

Mike! 7th November 2020 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13285183)
Cheating at Golf - have his Golf Cart driving license revoked.

This brings up something I've been wondering about for a few days. Has anyone ever interviewed anybody who beat Trump playing golf, and how he took the loss? Was he sportsman like, or a mean petty excuse type loser? I know what we think, but I was looking for real world examples.


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