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-   -   Criminal Charges Against Trump (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347810)

slyjoe 7th November 2020 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 13285479)
This brings up something I've been wondering about for a few days. Has anyone ever interviewed anybody who beat Trump playing golf, and how he took the loss? Was he sportsman like, or a mean petty excuse type loser? I know what we think, but I was looking for real world examples.

Rick Reilly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWLj2-a6FLI

ETA: Haven't watched recently, not sure who won.

quadraginta 7th November 2020 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13284708)
I agree. There's nothing to be gained by jumping all over Trump's crimes, though they most likely are indictable. This is not how you heal wounds, and I think Biden is all about fixing the country by smoothing out the divide.


The only problem with this concept is that Trump supporters aren't about to let themselves be smoothed.

And they will see any efforts to let matters slide "for the good of the country" as a sucker move. Doing nothing but demonstrating what bleeding hearts the tree-hugging leebruls are.

There's no benefit in going that route. But they do understand punishment and consequences.

if you want to get through to them you have to do it on their own terms. And they don't understand or respect 'Mr. Nice Guy'.

Segnosaur 7th November 2020 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slyjoe (Post 13285470)
Question - at one point I thought Mueller returned a sealed indictment. I though there was speculation it was directed at Trump, but wouldn't be unsealed/filed until he was out of office. Whatever happened there?

Not sure if there are any sealed indictments remaining.

As much as I like the idea of stubby Mcbonespurs indicted as a holdover from the Mueller probe, I doubt that would happen. Mueller didn't delve too deeply into Trump himself (I don't think he investigated his financials for example, and he didn't push for an interview).

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

slyjoe 7th November 2020 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13285520)
Not sure if there are any sealed indictments remaining.

As much as I like the idea of stubby Mcbonespurs indicted as a holdover from the Mueller probe, I doubt that would happen. Mueller didn't delve too deeply into Trump himself (I don't think he investigated his financials for example, and he didn't push for an interview).

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

If I remember right it was an obstruction charge based on others' testimony.

eerok 7th November 2020 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 13285499)
The only problem with this concept is that Trump supporters aren't about to let themselves be smoothed.

And they will see any efforts to let matters slide "for the good of the country" as a sucker move. Doing nothing but demonstrating what bleeding hearts the tree-hugging leebruls are.

There's no benefit in going that route. But they do understand punishment and consequences.

if you want to get through to them you have to do it on their own terms. And they don't understand or respect 'Mr. Nice Guy'.

Certainly there will be festering resentments, but there's no way to avoid that. I'd personally like to see Trump in prison -- the law should take its course -- but I don't think Biden will agree. He'll want to mend fences, because that's who he is.

In any case, you can't try to second guess people as irrational as Trump's base. You'll just go crazy doing that, and you'll never please them anyway.

The Great Zaganza 7th November 2020 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 13285479)
This brings up something I've been wondering about for a few days. Has anyone ever interviewed anybody who beat Trump playing golf, and how he took the loss? Was he sportsman like, or a mean petty excuse type loser? I know what we think, but I was looking for real world examples.

Yes.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-championships

there is the story when he got is ass handed to him by a then 15-year old named Adam Levin despite Trump cheating like hell.
He never admitted he lost and instead proclaimed:"The kid put up a good fight, didn’t he?”

The Atheist 7th November 2020 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13285444)
It's very possible that Biden will pardon Trump IMO.

That would actually be a very sensible plan.

No real purpose is served by locking dicks like Trump up, while doing so increases their likelihood of martyrdom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 13285479)
This brings up something I've been wondering about for a few days. Has anyone ever interviewed anybody who beat Trump playing golf, and how he took the loss? Was he sportsman like, or a mean petty excuse type loser? I know what we think, but I was looking for real world examples.

We need to get a game going between Kim Jung Un and Trump.

shemp 7th November 2020 11:02 AM

I'd like to see him make a deal with Pence. On Jan. 19, Trump pardons Pence for anything he may have done, then he resigns with the expectation that Pence will pardon him. Then Pence says "Um, about that pardon..."

Darat 7th November 2020 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13285444)
It's very possible that Biden will pardon Trump IMO.

Why would Biden want to send such a terrible message?

Darat 7th November 2020 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 13285479)
This brings up something I've been wondering about for a few days. Has anyone ever interviewed anybody who beat Trump playing golf, and how he took the loss? Was he sportsman like, or a mean petty excuse type loser? I know what we think, but I was looking for real world examples.

He doesn't lose.

Darat 7th November 2020 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13285698)
That would actually be a very sensible plan.



No real purpose is served by locking dicks like Trump up, while doing so increases their likelihood of martyrdom.







We need to get a game going between Kim Jung Un and Trump.

Rubbish, if you want society to become more equitable, fairer then it has to be seen that so called "White collar" criminals are scum and can't use their privilege to escape justice.

eerok 7th November 2020 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13285704)
Why would Biden want to send such a terrible message?

While I'd rather Trump go to prison, I think Biden could see a Trump pardon as a way of mending the American divide. It's just my assessment of Biden as a forgiving man. We'll have to see.

shemp 7th November 2020 11:16 AM

Even if he did, which I don't think he will, he can't pardon him for state and local crimes. The state of New York is coming after him.

eerok 7th November 2020 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shemp (Post 13285723)
Even if he did, which I don't think he will, he can't pardon him for state and local crimes. The state of New York is coming after him.

That's true, and it offers some hope for tough justice. I think that, regardless of potential indictments, the inevitable lawsuits will hammer Trump into the dust, which is also justice.

dirtywick 7th November 2020 12:14 PM

I donít think Biden will pardon him. Hopefully he creates an image of a justice system independent of politics.

Lurch 7th November 2020 08:56 PM

I'm long past sick to death of the rich and privileged effectively getting away with criming. Some poor short order cook tossing salads that sicken patrons could face a stiffer penalty that Trump negligently letting the better part of a quarter million (let that number sink in) people die of a pandemic that most of the rest of the world dealt with more sensibly.

For the white collar set, it's a version of the old saw that goes, "If you owe the bank a thousand you have a problem. If you owe them a hundred mil, the bank has a problem." The higher a person's station, the less a problem for them when caught criming. Utterly egregiously so, too often. Why does society so readily overlook ghastly malfeasance by the upper crust? If it comes down to the lawyers their money can buy, well, that's a societal sickness, too.

A society can never be content while obscene disparities in the justice system exist.

I'm hoping the State-level prosecutors get to grips with Trump and company. If this past 4 years of debauchery does not warrant a criminal investigation and proceeding, then almost nothing could. Might as well make it a law that the political ruling class is above the law.

The Great Zaganza 7th November 2020 09:25 PM

Biden's pitch is that Trump isn't a "true" Republican, and that without him bipartisanship is once more possible.
He wants to reconcile with Republican establishment, not with Trump personally.
I doubt he will pardon him, but he won't try to ruin him, either.

Norman Alexander 8th November 2020 01:56 AM

First thing I would do is to revoke Trump's passport. He is a flight risk for sure. The grounds would be the significant debt he owes the IRS.

Quote:

Passport Revocation Legislation

Included in the 2015 highway bill, signed into law on 4 December 2015, was a revenue-raising provision that requires the IRS to revoke or deny the passport of any taxpayer with a seriously deliquent tax debt.

The IRS defines a seriously delinquent tax debt as a tax liability of an amount greater than $50,000, and for which the taxpayer has exhausted all administrative appeal rights. That amount includes penalties and interest in addition to the taxes. The statutory $50,000 amount is adjusted annually for inflation and is currently $52,000.
https://www.americansabroad.org/subm...rt-revocation/

Lurch 8th November 2020 02:09 AM

As to holding to account Trump and fellow travelers, Biden need have no involvement at all. Indeed, he MUST be removed from all proceedings. It has nothing to do with him. No bias, no input, no comment. (Unlike Drumpf, for whom the DoJ was his personal attack dog.) The apparatus of the justice system can do its work without fear or favor just fine all by itself. As it must.

malbui 8th November 2020 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch (Post 13286414)
As to holding to account Trump and fellow travelers, Biden need have no involvement at all. Indeed, he MUST be removed from all proceedings. It has nothing to do with him. No bias, no input, no comment. (Unlike Drumpf, for whom the DoJ was his personal attack dog.) The apparatus of the justice system can do its work without fear or favor just fine all by itself. As it must.

I agree about not actively commenting. If asked about it, it gives him a great opportunity to express his confidence that the different parts of the justice system will go about their work according to their mandates without political interference. A nice line drawn under the previous administration.

shuttlt 8th November 2020 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13285713)
While I'd rather Trump go to prison, I think Biden could see a Trump pardon as a way of mending the American divide. It's just my assessment of Biden as a forgiving man. We'll have to see.

If you want bridges to be mended, you have to see this from the perspective of Trump supporters. I think it would be seen as a way of convicting him of unspecified crimes without having to to actually prove anything. They don't by and large think he's a criminal.

dirtywick 8th November 2020 03:54 AM

Oh he is a criminal. He’s just going to get away with some stuff and hopefully get caught for some other stuff.

shuttlt 8th November 2020 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13286465)
Oh he is a criminal. Heís just going to get away with some stuff and hopefully get caught for some other stuff.

Sure, but any olive branch to make peace with trump supporters, or give them a road back, of the sort eerok seemed to be discussing needs to be seen from the perspective of Trump supporters, not your perspective. You can't just insist they interpret the past 4 years as a criminal white supremacist dictatorship and take everything that now happens as part of that narrative.

Darat 8th November 2020 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch (Post 13286414)
As to holding to account Trump and fellow travelers, Biden need have no involvement at all. Indeed, he MUST be removed from all proceedings. It has nothing to do with him. No bias, no input, no comment. (Unlike Drumpf, for whom the DoJ was his personal attack dog.) The apparatus of the justice system can do its work without fear or favor just fine all by itself. As it must.

Totally agree with you in regards to Biden having nothing to with any investigations, prosecutions and so on. Including him not pardoning Trump for anything.

dirtywick 8th November 2020 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuttlt (Post 13286466)
Sure, but any olive branch to make peace with trump supporters, or give them a road back, of the sort eerok seemed to be discussing needs to be seen from the perspective of Trump supporters, not your perspective. You can't just insist they interpret the past 4 years as a criminal white supremacist dictatorship and take everything that now happens as part of that narrative.

It's not my insistence that makes him a criminal.

Hlafordlaes 8th November 2020 05:26 AM

Of all the things I would choose to reveal asap is the actual full transcript of Trump's call with the Ukraine, less mandatory redactions, assuming the mangled summary made public is not indicative of the whole, which I greatly suspect. Then I would pin a medal on Alexander Vindman's chest with top brass from all branches of the military looking on in the Rose Garden. Quite sure Vindman would have buttoned lip if there were not actual corruption on display.

Pageantry and clean, rule-of-law patriotism, in full-on repudiation of Trumpism, at the WH. Soonest. This is the way to nail the bastard quickly.

Garrison 8th November 2020 06:27 AM

Beau of the Fifth eloquently explains why this is a terrible idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c66IQQrmXeo

abaddon 8th November 2020 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaniner (Post 13285439)
I'm hoping that Biden doesn't play nice and say "Let's all just forget it and move on" (even though he would have no input or affect on the State indictments). If he won't insist on The PDJT being charged with everything possible, I'd rather he not say anything about it and just let due process take its course.

Thinking about it, that might be a useful tactic for Biden. It is out of his hands and there is nothing he can do and let justice take it's course.

On the downside, he would be compared to Pontius Pilate.

Chanakya 8th November 2020 07:20 AM

A world where Trump gets away with his flagrant, if petty, illegality, is in some measure a continuation of the topsy turvy grotesquery of a Trumpistan where actions and consequences do not correlate, where anything goes, where right and wrong and legality and illegality and truth and falsehood are meaningless terms.

True, past Presidents have got away with things they shouldn't have got away with. But that whataboutism mustn't stand in the way of Trump being made to pay for his actual illegalities, embarrassingly petty though they'll turn out to be for someone who was the most powerful man in the world (assuming there were no actual clearly-spelt-out deals with Russia for instance, which I doubt). This crazy world Trump had helped conjure up, or at least bring to the fore, needs to be set right again. A pardon will, in this context, be a very bad idea.


Also, an actual trial, or trials, and sentencing, will help keep the crazies in check now. Crazies, the foremost of them Trump himself, who'll no doubt otherwise do their damnest to create trouble, and somehow halt any correction of, for instance, the Covid situation. Showing these idiots that their craziness carries consequences, personal consequences, is probably the only way to keep (most of) them in check. Another reason why a pardon wouldn't, IMO, be a good idea.

Brainster 8th November 2020 07:36 AM

Easy prediction. Some mysterious internet personality--let's call him Z--will begin posting after Biden's inauguration about how Trump has been secretly indicted and convicted, and that he's wearing an ankle monitor.

Z-anon, coming to this forum in late January.

eerok 8th November 2020 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuttlt (Post 13286440)
If you want bridges to be mended, you have to see this from the perspective of Trump supporters. I think it would be seen as a way of convicting him of unspecified crimes without having to to actually prove anything. They don't by and large think he's a criminal.

Historically Trump has been a scofflaw, and he's been treated with kid gloves. This is not even debatable. Who else could run a blatantly crooked charity, and walk away without an indictment? Blatantly crooked university, same. Blatant tax fraud, same. He's crapped all over the emoluments clause, profiting from his office hand over fist. This is even before you get to the arguably more debatable crimes flowing from the Russian and Ukrainian debacles. And there's likely a lot more to come. He's a criminal. It's a lifestyle.

The delusions of Trump's base shouldn't guide the law. This election showed that America didn't reject conservatism, they rejected Trump. (This is a paraphrase from a Republican senator.) I don't think Trump can be propped up as a hero any more, and I don't think he deserves kid gloves or untouchable status any more.

That being said, I'm curious what Biden will do about it. Perhaps the smart choice is to do nothing, and let the law take its course. I still say he might pardon Trump, even if I hope he doesn't.

ETA: Also, Trump is a Trumplican, never a Republican, and never a conservative.

Reformed Offlian 8th November 2020 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13284753)
No.

Even if it did, there would be nothing to prevent a second one based on new evidence. At most, it would prevent revisiting the exact same basis as the last impeachment.

Mader Levap 8th November 2020 08:07 AM

I am in "Biden does nothing about Trump either positive or negative" camp. If anything, he should ensure that justice and due process works.

shuttlt 8th November 2020 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13286502)
It's not my insistence that makes him a criminal.

I wasn't talking about whether he was criminal. I was saying that if one wanted to make a magnanimous gesture to a group of people "to bring the country together", you have to do it such that it will be taken as such from their perspective. Otherwise you are just playing to the peanut gallery of your own side.

eerok 8th November 2020 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuttlt (Post 13286619)
I wasn't talking about whether he was criminal. I was saying that if one wanted to make a magnanimous gesture to a group of people "to bring the country together", you have to do it such that it will be taken as such from their perspective. Otherwise you are just playing to the peanut gallery of your own side.

Sometimes the other side has to wake up to the facts. Now we're in a post-Trump-pro-fact world.

shuttlt 8th November 2020 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13286608)
Historically Trump has been a scofflaw, and he's been treated with kid gloves. This is not even debatable. Who else could run a blatantly crooked charity, and walk away without an indictment? Blatantly crooked university, same. Blatant tax fraud, same. He's crapped all over the emoluments clause, profiting from his office hand over fist. This is even before you get to the arguably more debatable crimes flowing from the Russian and Ukrainian debacles. And there's likely a lot more to come. He's a criminal. It's a lifestyle.

OK, but now we are no longer talking about "mending America".

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13286608)
The delusions of Trump's base shouldn't guide the law. This election showed that America didn't reject conservatism, they rejected Trump. (This is a paraphrase from a Republican senator.) I don't think Trump can be propped up as a hero any more, and I don't think he deserves kid gloves or untouchable status any more.

OK, in that case you are not talking about mending bridges, bringing the country together etc. I thought you were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13286608)
That being said, I'm curious what Biden will do about it. Perhaps the smart choice is to do nothing, and let the law take its course. I still say he might pardon Trump, even if I hope he doesn't.

The decision to go after or not to go after Trump will be political. It may be dressed up in process, but you are dreaming if you think it won't be political.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13286608)
ETA: Also, Trump is a Trumplican, never a Republican, and never a conservative.

I more or less agree with you one this about the Republican part. He does have some conservative tendencies though.

The Greater Fool 8th November 2020 08:33 AM

Trump had Obama investigated for spying on the Trump campaign.

The 'let it go' train has left the station by trumps own hand.

shuttlt 8th November 2020 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13286631)
Sometimes the other side has to wake up to the facts. Now we're in a post-Trump-pro-fact world.

You think prosecuting him is going to do that when impeachment, and Russiagate didn't? All you are talking about here is pursuing the same strategy yet again, but even more loudly and forcefully. They already think your side are authoritarian liars, all your plan will do is reinforce that.

Mader Levap 8th November 2020 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuttlt (Post 13286632)
I more or less agree with you one this about the Republican part. He does have some conservative tendencies though.

...and flock of people insisting we always were in war with Oceania Trump is not and never was republican rises in number.

On 21 Jan you folks will pretend Trump never existed.

eerok 8th November 2020 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuttlt (Post 13286632)
OK, but now we are no longer talking about "mending America".

Well, these are the facts. Whatever Biden does remains to be seen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuttlt (Post 13286632)
OK, in that case you are not talking about mending bridges, bringing the country together etc. I thought you were.

I was speculating on what Biden might do, but I don't know what this will be. "Mending bridges" can be conceived and implemented in more than one way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuttlt (Post 13286632)
The decision to go after or not to go after Trump will be political. It may be dressed up in process, but you are dreaming if you think it won't be political.

Everything about this is political, but the process, whatever form it takes, will follow the law, and I'd expect any possible indictments against Trump to be scrupulously formed in this respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuttlt (Post 13286632)
I more or less agree with you one this about the Republican part. He does have some conservative tendencies though.

This is perhaps the most important point. Once the GOP gets back to work, Trump is meaningless, and I think that much of the GOP, the power brokers, were sick to death of him in any case.

Trump never represented the GOP. He was their populist useful idiot.


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