International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   USA Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Pardons (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348912)

Skeptic Ginger 19th January 2021 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athyrio (Post 13367130)
Showmanship.

He's going back on TV.

That suggests tomorrow to suck up news time away from Biden and from his dismal sendoff. I do predict that is the plan.

Skeptic Ginger 19th January 2021 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustbutverify (Post 13367135)
No- Ford's pardon of Nixon included all possible crimes committed as President- including crimes he had not yet been charged with or convicted of.

Right, but he was no longer POTUS at the time, Ford was. It was not for crimes not yet committed.

Not yet discovered and not yet charged for is not what preemptive refers to in this case.

RecoveringYuppy 19th January 2021 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13367099)
I'm really curious if Trump issues any pardons for cover. Will there be any African Americans? Will there be anyone who is poor?

This suggests some might have been determined by more rational minds:



https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/19/polit...ist/index.html

trustbutverify 19th January 2021 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13367146)
Right, but he was no longer POTUS at the time, Ford was. It was not for crimes not yet committed.

Not yet discovered and not yet charged for is not what preemptive refers to in this case.

Quote:

8. No pardon can be pre-emptive. Only for crimes that have been committed and convicted in the past.
Norman Alexander can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the highlighted meant the pardoned had to have been charged and convicted before the pardon is issued. I interpreted "preemptive", as covering crimes not yet discovered and/or charged.

Added: A pardon for crimes not yet committed would obviously be insane and, I assume, illegal.

DevilsAdvocate 19th January 2021 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13367099)
I'm really curious if Trump issues any pardons for cover. Will there be any African Americans? Will there be anyone who is poor?

I'm expecting a mixed bag. Some good ones. Some bad ones. Some poor people. Some rich people. Some people close to Trump and some not at all.

Norman Alexander 19th January 2021 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustbutverify (Post 13367185)
Norman Alexander can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the highlighted meant the pardoned had to have been charged and convicted before the pardon is issued. I interpreted "preemptive", as covering crimes not yet discovered and/or charged.

Added: A pardon for crimes not yet committed would obviously be insane and, I assume, illegal.

You are correct. Presidential pardons should not be a Get Out Of Jail Free card which can be pulled out any time in the future. Nor can they be a shield or a Bail Out Free card against any ongoing legal action that might lead to conviction.

They should specifically be applicable only to someone who has been duly convicted and is awaiting sentencing, or is serving, or has served, their sentence.

Skeptic Ginger 19th January 2021 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustbutverify (Post 13367185)
Norman Alexander can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the highlighted meant the pardoned had to have been charged and convicted before the pardon is issued. I interpreted "preemptive", as covering crimes not yet discovered and/or charged.

Added: A pardon for crimes not yet committed would obviously be insane and, I assume, illegal.

A poorly worded sentence?

However, on a news interview today it was said that none of the pardons like Nixon's had ever been tested in court. OTOH, it was noted there is a precedent set on the 4 occasions mentioned.

alfaniner 19th January 2021 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Best (Post 13367089)
Is Joe Exotic on the list?

That was one of the reports, yes. But the bigger impact is Steve Bannon.

zorro99 19th January 2021 08:53 PM

CNN is reporting that Bannon is getting pardoned.

trustbutverify 19th January 2021 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander (Post 13367241)
You are correct. Presidential pardons should not be a Get Out Of Jail Free card which can be pulled out any time in the future. Nor can they be a shield or a Bail Out Free card against any ongoing legal action that might lead to conviction.

They should specifically be applicable only to someone who has been duly convicted and is awaiting sentencing, or is serving, or has served, their sentence.

Agreed.

trustbutverify 19th January 2021 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zorro99 (Post 13367279)
CNN is reporting that Bannon is getting pardoned.

For what...Being a bloated fat head?

RecoveringYuppy 19th January 2021 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustbutverify (Post 13367285)
For what...Being a bloated fat head?

The border wall finance fraud case?

trustbutverify 19th January 2021 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13367287)
The border wall finance fraud case?

I guess. So he can still be tried for the fat head thing.

gypsyjackson 19th January 2021 10:41 PM

Why is Trump pardoning former Detroit Mayor Kilpatrick? Does he have to give any explanation (or does he choose to)?

DevilsAdvocate 19th January 2021 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsyjackson (Post 13367342)
Why is Trump pardoning former Detroit Mayor Kilpatrick? Does he have to give any explanation (or does he choose to)?

He does not have to give any reason. Usually no reason is given.

My hunch is he pardoned Kilpatrick because Kilpatrick is guilty of many of the same crimes that Trump is guilty of.

DevilsAdvocate 19th January 2021 11:02 PM

Forbes reports 143 pardons. Not himself, or family, or Rudy.

Does include a pardon for Bannon. Elliott Broidy, who lobbied Trump on behalf of foreign governments. Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick. Lil Wayne. Rapper Kodak Black. Sholam Weiss, serving a massively long sentence for an insurance fraud scheme a couple decades ago. Salomon Melgen, who ran a Medicare fraud scheme.

acbytesla 19th January 2021 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate (Post 13367237)
I'm expecting a mixed bag. Some good ones. Some bad ones. Some poor people. Some rich people. Some people close to Trump and some not at all.

I'm not. I'm expecting a lot of rich and connected individuals. Maybe cops that killed suspects.

acbytesla 19th January 2021 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate (Post 13367345)
He does not have to give any reason. Usually no reason is given.

My hunch is he pardoned Kilpatrick because Kilpatrick is guilty of many of the same crimes that Trump is guilty of.

Looks like it.

Quote:

Convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice. He was sentenced to four months in jail and was released on probation after serving 99 days.

On May 25, 2010, Kilpatrick was sentenced to eighteen months to five years in state prison for violating his probation,[3] and served time at the Oaks Correctional Facility in northwest Michigan. On March 11, 2013, he was convicted on 24 federal felony counts, including mail fraud, wire fraud, and racketeering.[4] On October 10, 2013, Kilpatrick was sentenced to 28 years in federal prison.[5] Kilpatrick is currently serving his sentence at the Federal Correctional Institution, Oakdale, in Oakdale, Louisiana. On January 20, 2021, President Donald Trump commuted his sentence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwame_Kilpatrick

gypsyjackson 19th January 2021 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate (Post 13367345)
He does not have to give any reason. Usually no reason is given.

My hunch is he pardoned Kilpatrick because Kilpatrick is guilty of many of the same crimes that Trump is guilty of.

Thanks. Trying to set precedent perhaps.

DevilsAdvocate 19th January 2021 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13367349)
Looks like it.

If I recall, besides the convictions, there was also a bunch of stuff with nepotism and mismanagement of funds and obstruction of justice and other things that Donnie would find so familiar.

DevilsAdvocate 19th January 2021 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsyjackson (Post 13367351)
Thanks. Trying to set precedent perhaps.

Perhaps to some degree. I expect more just that he is sympathetic because the things Kilpatrick was found guilty of are exactly what he would have done in the same situation. To him, that looks perfectly fine. His only "real" crime was getting caught.

Segnosaur 19th January 2021 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate (Post 13367345)
My hunch is he pardoned Kilpatrick because Kilpatrick is guilty of many of the same crimes that Trump is guilty of.

He may also be doing it because Kilpatrick is black... a way to (falsely) claim "I'm not racist! I pardoned non-white people!"

Matthew Best 20th January 2021 12:08 AM

Pardons
 
I have just scrolled through the list looking for names I recognised (and didnít see many) but I did see a large number of non-violent drug offenders with ridiculously long sentences. So itís not as bad as I feared - Bannon notwithstanding of course.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings..._medium=header

Firestone 20th January 2021 12:12 AM

Trump pardoning Bannon for the crime of defrauding MAGA-idiots is just perfect.

Cain 20th January 2021 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Best (Post 13367367)
I have just scrolled through the list looking for names I recognised (and didnít see many) but I did see a large number of non-violent drug offenders with ridiculously long sentences. So itís not as bad as I feared - Bannon notwithstanding of course.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings..._medium=header

And what did these crackheads ever do for Trump? You'll never see the MSM point out that Bannon actually EARNED his pardon unlike a lot of the Blacks because dat be racist.

The Great Zaganza 20th January 2021 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firestone (Post 13367369)
Trump pardoning Bannon for the crime of defrauding MAGA-idiots is just perfect.

It's hard to imagine a greater slap-in-the-face: it's an admission that for Trump, Build-the-Wall was always a grift.

DevilsAdvocate 20th January 2021 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firestone (Post 13367369)
Trump pardoning Bannon for the crime of defrauding MAGA-idiots is just perfect.

And the likely reason for pardoning Bannon is so that he can lead a new Patriot Party that Trump is considering starting up (despite Bannon calling him an "11-year-old child") where Bannon will be asking those same defrauded MAGA-idiots to donate money. And they will. And they will.

The Don 20th January 2021 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13367373)
It's hard to imagine a greater slap-in-the-face: it's an admission that for Trump, Build-the-Wall was always a grift.

The only people who will join the dots, and who actually care, are people who would never have voted for President Trump in any case.

Supporters of President Trump, if they have an opinion, will think that the charges against Steve Bannon were brought as part of a politically-motivated witch hunt and so the pardon is completely justified.

DevilsAdvocate 20th January 2021 12:54 AM

In interesting legal matters, considering the very late hour, Biden could maybe theoretically revoke Bannon's pardon. It won't happen, but it possibly could.

Grant revoked two pardons granted by Andrew Johnson. The courts upheld the revocations because the prison warden had not delivered the pardon. Another revocation was upheld because the prisoner had physically received the pardon.

If Biden were to revoke Bannon's pardon, that may be upheld if, at that time, it has not been received by the clerks of the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York, or possibly even if the pardon has not been delivered, by some manner, to Bannon himself.

Probably won't happen. But an interesting idea.

Firestone 20th January 2021 01:00 AM

Wonder what Bannon's three indicted partners in crime, who were not pardoned, must be thinking this morning.

DevilsAdvocate 20th January 2021 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firestone (Post 13367391)
Wonder what Bannon's three indicted partners in crime, who were not pardoned, must be thinking this morning.

They are thinking about what undisclosed Bannon crimes they are aware of that were not pardoned that they could give for a plea deal. I would guess.

zooterkin 20th January 2021 01:29 AM

List of pardons includes Bannon. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...sidency-report

Full list - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-the-full-list

Quote:

Trump did not attempt to give himself a pre-emptive pardon, and has not pardoned members of his family or Rudy Giuliani, his former personal lawyer with whom he has fallen out. Julian Assange was another figure subject to speculation who was not on the list. Prosecutors and scholars have, however, said a grey area in the constitution means a president may be able to issue “secret” pardons, without notifying Congress or the public.

zooterkin 20th January 2021 01:29 AM

List of pardons includes Bannon. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...sidency-report

Full list - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-the-full-list

Quote:

Trump did not attempt to give himself a pre-emptive pardon, and has not pardoned members of his family or Rudy Giuliani, his former personal lawyer with whom he has fallen out. Julian Assange was another figure subject to speculation who was not on the list. Prosecutors and scholars have, however, said a grey area in the constitution means a president may be able to issue “secret” pardons, without notifying Congress or the public.

Bob001 20th January 2021 01:51 AM

Question: Is there anything that requires a pardon to be announced and recorded? What prevents Trump from signing a pardon for himself, maybe with witnesses, and sitting on it? If he is never indicted, he never produces it; if he is, he unveils it and says "Not so fast."

Firestone 20th January 2021 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate (Post 13367397)
They are thinking about what undisclosed Bannon crimes they are aware of that were not pardoned that they could give for a plea deal. I would guess.

Amen to that.

From a CNN legal analyst: "And now the feds at SDNY need to walk the Bannon case file across the street to the Manhattan DA. Theft is theft, it's a state crime too."

Is that correct?

https://twitter.com/eliehonig/status...45413120974849

Bob001 20th January 2021 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firestone (Post 13367409)
Amen to that.

From a CNN legal analyst: "And now the feds at SDNY need to walk the Bannon case file across the street to the Manhattan DA. Theft is theft, it's a state crime too."

Is that correct?

https://twitter.com/eliehonig/status...45413120974849

The question would be where was Bannon actually raising money? I would think if he was operating in New York, it could easily become a New York city or state case.

DevilsAdvocate 20th January 2021 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13367408)
Question: Is there anything that requires a pardon to be announced and recorded? What prevents Trump from signing a pardon for himself, maybe with witnesses, and sitting on it? If he is never indicted, he never produces it; if he is, he unveils it and says "Not so fast."

No. See my post above about court rulings on whether a pardon can be revoked before it is delivered. That is all we have.

The rest would be up to the courts. A secret pardon would almost certainly be considered not valid. A self pardon would almost certainly be considered not valid whether secret or not.

DevilsAdvocate 20th January 2021 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firestone (Post 13367409)
Amen to that.

From a CNN legal analyst: "And now the feds at SDNY need to walk the Bannon case file across the street to the Manhattan DA. Theft is theft, it's a state crime too."

Is that correct?

https://twitter.com/eliehonig/status...45413120974849

Maybe. It makes it more complicated. The charges where related to mail fraud, which is federal, and money laundering, which appears to be at least mostly federal.

I have not looked into the details, but these are really Federal charges. There is a decent chance that there are underlying State laws violated as well, but I'm just not sure.

I'm sure New York will be looking into what charges they can bring. And attorneys will be looking at civil suits as well. A pardon, if not refused, is basically admitting to the crime, which makes a civil suit a sort of slam dunk.

Firestone 20th January 2021 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate (Post 13367415)
Maybe. It makes it more complicated. The charges where related to mail fraud, which is federal, and money laundering, which appears to be at least mostly federal.

I have not looked into the details, but these are really Federal charges. There is a decent chance that there are underlying State laws violated as well, but I'm just not sure.

I'm sure New York will be looking into what charges they can bring. And attorneys will be looking at civil suits as well. A pardon, if not refused, is basically admitting to the crime, which makes a civil suit a sort of slam dunk.

Thanks.

Of course, the civil suits have to be brought by the defrauded MAGA-idiots. :)

Bob001 20th January 2021 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate (Post 13367415)
....
I have not looked into the details, but these are really Federal charges. There is a decent chance that there are underlying State laws violated as well, but I'm just not sure.
....


But surely fraud is also a state crime?
Quote:

New York federal prosecutors on Thursday charged President Donald Trump's former adviser Steve Bannon and three others with defrauding donors of hundreds of thousands of dollars as part of a fundraising campaign purportedly aimed at supporting Trump's border wall.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/20/polit...ent/index.html


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:31 PM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-20, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.