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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

dann 17th March 2020 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13023117)
Trump Tweets

The world is at war with a hidden enemy. WE WILL WIN!


The world is united! Yeah, right! While trying to buy the vaccine so the Germans won't have it ...

When the actual world is not united, an imaginary threat to the whole world is always useful if you want to make people forget about the actual conflicts of interest. In this case, people who don't have health care and the people who turn a buck selling health care to the people who can afford it.
Ronald Reagan had a somewhat similar idea when he started his project 'Let's disenfranchise the poor even more.'

Quote:

Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us recognize this common bond. I occasionally think how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world.
President Ronald Reagan Thought About Alien Invasion Constantly (Curiosity, Jan. 31, 2018)

angrysoba 17th March 2020 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13022850)
it's called Humor,

On the seventh or eighth retelling the joke wears a bit thin...:rolleyes:

The Don 18th March 2020 09:04 AM

According to Russia:

Quote:

Meanwhile, Russia says it’s conducted well over 100,000 tests with only 147 positive results.

Officially, that’s down to the country’s "timely" intervention when the epidemic first emerged in neighbouring China, with a clear suggestion that Europe somehow messed things up.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Pull the other one, it's got bells on :rolleyes:

The Don 18th March 2020 09:49 AM

Boris Johnson using the same kind of rhetoric as Donald Trump :mad:

Quote:

UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson has posted an upbeat message to the country about coronavirus.

"This enemy can be deadly, but it is also beatable - and we know how to beat it," the message reads.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Mader Levap 18th March 2020 10:07 AM

Seeing russian numbers I conclude they lie even more than chinese.

angrysoba 18th March 2020 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13023767)
Boris Johnson using the same kind of rhetoric as Donald Trump :mad:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

There's nothing objectionable about saying that, is there?

If he was talking about Chinese viruses and hoaxes and how he so too could be a doctor and knows all about it then I would agree with you.

But from what I can see they are saying at all times that they are going with what the scientists say.

There is also a kind of "dog that didn't bark" evidence that most of the opposition parties and the Public Health bodies of each country in the UK is behind the decisions that are being made.

Planigale 18th March 2020 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13022471)
Colour me surprised, the UK government's plan for car factories to build ventilators is a pie-in-the-sky as is their approach to pretty much everything else :rolleyes:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51914490

From this article,
Quote:

"The idea that an engineering company can quickly manufacturer medical devices, and comply with the rules, is unrealistic because of the heavy burden of standards and regulations that need to be complied with," said Penlon's Mr Thompson."
The case seems to be based on the paperwork involved not the engineering. Since we may need to ramp up for some time (a year) as will all the rest of the world and we may not be able to rely on China for manufacturing we probably do need to be outsourcing manufacturing to other companies. Present manufacturers doubling output is probably no where near enough for the world demand.

As the article said it may be worth looking at older simpler models to make initially, the more sophisticated ventilators can be used on the sickest.

The Don 19th March 2020 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13024626)
From this article,

The case seems to be based on the paperwork involved not the engineering. Since we may need to ramp up for some time (a year) as will all the rest of the world and we may not be able to rely on China for manufacturing we probably do need to be outsourcing manufacturing to other companies. Present manufacturers doubling output is probably no where near enough for the world demand.

As the article said it may be worth looking at older simpler models to make initially, the more sophisticated ventilators can be used on the sickest.

There's no escaping the fact that car factories are designed to manufacture cars as efficiently as possible. They're wholly unsuitable for the manufacture of ventilators even if there was an agreed ventilator design (there isn't), the employees were suitably skilled to make them (they aren't), the automated assembly line was suitably programmed to make ventilators (it isn't) and the supply chain was in place to provide the components for the manufacture of the ventilators (it isn't).

It's been a while since I worked in manufacturing (Mullard Colour Tubes in Durham back in the 1980s) but even back then retooling for the production of a different model of cathode ray tube would take weeks much less converting the factory to make something completely different and, more importantly in this context, converting it back a few weeks later when the ventilator crisis is over. During the war, the expectation was that the new factories (Captain Swoop was quite right to point out my error in claiming that car factories were turned over to the production of aircraft) would be producing for years.

It is possible that a small-scale general engineering company, especially one which specialises in small scale or prototype manufacture and which has a highly-skilled workforce of "artisans" may be able to quickly turn its hand to the manufacture of simple ventilators, but that's not what the government is/was proposing.

Instead what they did was, as they usually do, make a grand announcement which is supposed to sound good but which has no practical benefit. Instead it relies on a mis-remembered fragment of our national myth "During the War, car factories immediately switched to building Spitfires" and a fundamental misunderstanding of modern manufacturing.

In this way it's as ridiculous as claiming that post-Brexit component shortages could simply be overcome by 3D printing them.

Darat 19th March 2020 02:18 AM

It is yet again the comfortable class having no idea about how their level of comfort is maintained. Their level of understanding is "factories make things, I want more ventilators, a ventilator is a thing, factories make things" problem solved. This is because all they do is tell someone that something needs to be done and it happens for them.

The Don 19th March 2020 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13024664)
It is possible that a small-scale general engineering company, especially one which specialises in small scale or prototype manufacture and which has a highly-skilled workforce of "artisans" may be able to quickly turn its hand to the manufacture of simple ventilators, but that's not what the government is/was proposing.

I've been thinking about this a little more and perhaps classic vehicle/plane/boat restorers, boutique audio manufacturers and electrical and electronic repair shop workers might have the right combination of skills.

Of course this would still require the production and certification of a suitable design or designs for these people to build and the creation of a supply chain so that suitable components are available for the manufacture - and ongoing maintenance of ventilators.

Of course the government isn't working on this, instead they're expressing a vague hope that British Industry will magically, schmagically solve the problems on their behalf. This wasn't what happened during the war.

Once again, it's pointless grandstanding and wishful, magical, thinking in the face of a national crisis - absolutely the opposite of how Britain responded to WWII.

Darat 19th March 2020 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13024708)
I've been thinking about this a little more and perhaps classic vehicle/plane/boat restorers, boutique audio manufacturers and electrical and electronic repair shop workers might have the right combination of skills.

..snip...

Even if some of them can - it is going to be very small numbers plus of course the staff at such companies are subject to lock downs, self isolation and so on.

Captain_Swoop 19th March 2020 03:12 AM

In WW2 plans that had been put in place before the war were brought in to operation, there was an entire government department to coordinate and run it.

Captain_Swoop 19th March 2020 03:13 AM

Nigel Farage says it is time we 'challenged' the Chinese 'regime' and 'enough is enough'.
China should be punished.

The Don 19th March 2020 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13024717)
In WW2 plans that had been put in place before the war were brought in to operation, there was an entire government department to coordinate and run it.

That sounds awfully like the kind of tactics that awful foreigners would adopt - make a plan beforehand and then implement it diligently - not the British way at all.

We seem to have invented a national myth that pluck, courage and the Corinthian spirit allowed us to get through the war years and have forgotten about how carefully plans were made ahead of time and the huge efforts that went into managing and coordinating the implementation of those plans - perhaps because it suits the velleity that seems to be the current government's standard approach. :mad:

The Don 19th March 2020 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13024718)
Nigel Farage says it is time we 'challenged' the Chinese 'regime' and 'enough is enough'.
China should be punished.

Here's the article where he says it.

https://www.newsweek.com/nigel-farag...ethink-1493085

Quote:

I believe that attention should now turn to China. When President Trump has talked about the "Chinese virus" (others have called it the "Wuhan Virus") he has been met with waves of criticism and accusations of racism. In the House of Commons, the shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry even said of Trump: "Now he's calling it the foreign virus, blaming it on Europe for its spread and today blaming China." I hate to break it to Ms Thornberry, but Trump is right. And it is time we all challenged China.
He's a **** ! :mad:

lomiller 19th March 2020 09:05 AM

Conservatives are much more responsive to fear than Liberals so the current panic is likely to make for a very active and engaged base.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/b...ical-attitudes

It’s possible some will turn on their party, but history suggests otherwise. If conservatives are more active and engaged and remain loyal to their party it will help conservatives in the pools. Weirdly, this suggests that the general incompetence of conservatives fuels fear and uncertainty, which will in turn help them in elections.

Captain_Swoop 19th March 2020 09:55 AM

HANNITY, March 9: "This scaring the living hell out of people -- I see it, again, as like, let's bludgeon Trump with this new hoax."

HANNITY, March 18: "By the way, this program has always taken the coronavirus seriously. We've never called the virus a hoax."

Mojo 19th March 2020 10:59 AM

Nasty moment for Boris there, when after he said he was confident that we can “turn the tide” within 12 weeks, a journalist asked him what that meant.

Trebuchet 19th March 2020 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13024708)
I've been thinking about this a little more and perhaps classic vehicle/plane/boat restorers, boutique audio manufacturers and electrical and electronic repair shop workers might have the right combination of skills.

Of course this would still require the production and certification of a suitable design or designs for these people to build and the creation of a supply chain so that suitable components are available for the manufacture - and ongoing maintenance of ventilators.

Of course the government isn't working on this, instead they're expressing a vague hope that British Industry will magically, schmagically solve the problems on their behalf. This wasn't what happened during the war.

Once again, it's pointless grandstanding and wishful, magical, thinking in the face of a national crisis - absolutely the opposite of how Britain responded to WWII.

It's not just mechanical. You need specialized electronics. You aren't going to produce those in the garage.

ponderingturtle 19th March 2020 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13025253)
It's not just mechanical. You need specialized electronics. You aren't going to produce those in the garage.

Yes and no, I imagine you could run one with an arduino. The problem is who is responsible when this cut rate hack jobs kill someone instead of saving their life?

alfaniner 19th March 2020 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13025253)
It's not just mechanical. You need specialized electronics. You aren't going to produce those in the garage.

Something I've never seen addressed -- in an emergency (and if you have one), wouldn't a CPAP at least help as a respirator/ventilator? I think there are plenty of those around, and especially a lot of older people have them.

P.J. Denyer 19th March 2020 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13024723)
That sounds awfully like the kind of tactics that awful foreigners would adopt - make a plan beforehand and then implement it diligently - not the British way at all.

"They practice before hand which spoils the fun"

Myriad 19th March 2020 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaniner (Post 13025426)
Something I've never seen addressed -- in an emergency (and if you have one), wouldn't a CPAP at least help as a respirator/ventilator? I think there are plenty of those around, and especially a lot of older people have them.


Possibly. I recall seeing a series of tweets from a doctor in an overrun hospital in northern Italy, describing how they used all available standard ventilators, then all available NIVs (non-invasive ventilators), then all available CPAP machines, then all the rigs of some even more basic type. I wasn't sure whether or not they had some way of feeding O2 into the CPAP machines.

Myriad 19th March 2020 07:49 PM

A weird possible medium-term repercussion: if the Chinese policy of rigorous internal containment succeeds, and the European and American policies of flattening the curve while ultimately exposing most of the population also succeed, then most Chinese nationals will be unable to safely travel to most parts of the world (or return without a lengthy quarantine), while immune foreigners will (if permitted) be able to travel to China. Until a vaccine or effective treatment is available.

a_unique_person 19th March 2020 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13024723)
That sounds awfully like the kind of tactics that awful foreigners would adopt - make a plan beforehand and then implement it diligently - not the British way at all.



We seem to have invented a national myth that pluck, courage and the Corinthian spirit allowed us to get through the war years and have forgotten about how carefully plans were made ahead of time and the huge efforts that went into managing and coordinating the implementation of those plans - perhaps because it suits the velleity that seems to be the current government's standard approach. :mad:

All it takes to be Churchill is to believe that one is Churchill.

The Don 19th March 2020 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo (Post 13025206)
Nasty moment for Boris there, when after he said he was confident that we can “turn the tide” within 12 weeks, a journalist asked him what that meant.

It's the same thing President Trump does, says whatever he thinks will appeal to the audience without any basis in fact. It's what passes for leadership these days :mad:

The Don 19th March 2020 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_unique_person (Post 13025826)
All it takes to be Churchill is to believe that one is Churchill.

Oh no, no, no, no, no.....

The Don 20th March 2020 02:16 AM

At what point does shutting down large parts of the economy for 4, 8, 12, 16 weeks become more damaging than allowing the pandemic to run its course with all the deaths that would involve ?

If we have a major long-term economic downturn then the resulting excess deaths over several years could easily exceed those predicted from Coronavirus (IIRC up to 1% of population is the prediction for the UK if no action is taken) not to mention the economic and social upheaval of having more than 20% of the population unemployed for months or years, the collapse of entire industries and long-term shortages of crucial items.

I suppose that government need to consider these political considerations.

steenkh 20th March 2020 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13025951)
At what point does shutting down large parts of the economy for 4, 8, 12, 16 weeks become more damaging than allowing the pandemic to run its course with all the deaths that would involve ?

In our modern society we value lives more than anything else - at least when they are of our own nationality, and presumably also having the same skin colour, and language. At least, that is the theory. But you are right, in real politics, a life does have a value, and the cost of saving a life can be more than what society is willing to pay.

I find it interesting that China - where lives are usually regarded as worth less than in the West - have been doing so much to contain the virus. The low value of life in China was probably seen most clearly in the initial reaction of suppression.

Horatius 20th March 2020 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13025951)
At what point does shutting down large parts of the economy for 4, 8, 12, 16 weeks become more damaging than allowing the pandemic to run its course with all the deaths that would involve ?


I'd say it comes down to food. When so many people are on lockdown that it threatens food production and distribution enough that starvation is likely, then it will change. No point in saving a million people from the virus if two million starve to death.

Now, how likely this is to impact the food system that much is a good question, but I for one have bought bananas for the first time in a while, largely because I figured shipping fresh bananas to Canada was a somewhat lower priority when shipping in general is at risk. I have no doubt they will become rarer and more expensive in the near future.

Darat 20th March 2020 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13024723)
That sounds awfully like the kind of tactics that awful foreigners would adopt - make a plan beforehand and then implement it diligently - not the British way at all.



We seem to have invented a national myth that pluck, courage and the Corinthian spirit allowed us to get through the war years and have forgotten about how carefully plans were made ahead of time and the huge efforts that went into managing and coordinating the implementation of those plans - perhaps because it suits the velleity that seems to be the current government's standard approach. :mad:



It's akin to the veneration of Churchill. Our view of WW2 is really based on the propaganda we used during the war. What actually happened in WW2 in the country was very different. People looked out for themselves, people cheated, we had a whole black market that everybody with the means used and so. It was not the good old knees up we now like to believe it was.l

Darat 20th March 2020 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo (Post 13025206)
Nasty moment for Boris there, when after he said he was confident that we can “turn the tide” within 12 weeks, a journalist asked him what that meant.



It’s meant to mean something? That’s going to be a new concept for Johnson.

Darat 20th March 2020 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_unique_person (Post 13025826)
All it takes to be Churchill is to believe that one is Churchill.



And be a complete bastard, so Johnson at least has one qualification.

Captain_Swoop 20th March 2020 09:09 AM

Kansas official: Pandemic isn’t a problem here because there are few Chinese people


https://amp.kansascity.com/opinion/e...241353836.html

Trebuchet 20th March 2020 09:30 AM

I've lots of relatives in the next couple of counties. They probably think the same thing.

ETA: I'm finding it quite hilarious how many Republicans are still parroting Trump's initial denial even after he's moved on.

GlennB 20th March 2020 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13026156)
And be a complete bastard, so Johnson at least has one qualification.

:thumbsup:

Captain_Swoop 20th March 2020 10:31 AM

Chancellor says govt will pay 80% of wages to companies for workers off with virus
Nothing about self employed or contract workers though.

Garrison 20th March 2020 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13026366)
Chancellor says govt will pay 80% of wages to companies for workers off with virus
Nothing about self employed or contract workers though.

And of course also just announced bars, pubs and restaurants are to close. I get the need to contain the virus but sooner rather than later we are going to see some nasty psychological consequences of a policy which basically amounts to sitting at home staring at the same four walls day after day. I don't care if you've got Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+ its not a substitute for social interaction.

angrysoba 20th March 2020 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13026396)
And of course also just announced bars, pubs and restaurants are to close. I get the need to contain the virus but sooner rather than later we are going to see some nasty psychological consequences of a policy which basically amounts to sitting at home staring at the same four walls day after day. I don't care if you've got Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+ its not a substitute for social interaction.

All gyms too. For people who live alone and for whom the pub or the gym is an important social hub, it is likely to be quite depressing. In fact, I expect you couldn’t have a prison of solitude confinement and Disney+. It would surely be a violation of human rights.

Similarly, for those who end up trapped with people they don’t like. Abusive families, or unhygienic room mates, etc...

AnonyMoose 20th March 2020 11:22 AM

Is anyone else checking out the live webcams around the world?

Seeing various mega cities with their streets mostly empty, it's a wee bit eerie....

Captain_Swoop 20th March 2020 12:40 PM

We can't go to the pub but we can all cram in to supermarket queues.

Trebuchet 20th March 2020 01:54 PM

Georgia state legislator has symptoms, gets tested, goes to the assembly and votes, and announces he's tested positive, in that order. Wotta Maroon!

alfaniner 20th March 2020 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13026396)
And of course also just announced bars, pubs and restaurants are to close. I get the need to contain the virus but sooner rather than later we are going to see some nasty psychological consequences of a policy which basically amounts to sitting at home staring at the same four walls day after day. I don't care if you've got Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+ its not a substitute for social interaction.

I have to wonder about all those people who unashamedly said "Oh, I can't cook!" and depended on going out all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13026530)
We can't go to the pub but we can all cram in to supermarket queues.

A lot of stores are reducing hours (I understand why) but for someone who used to always go late, now it forces me to be there at a time when there are many more people in the store.

Darat 20th March 2020 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13026366)
Chancellor says govt will pay 80% of wages to companies for workers off with virus
Nothing about self employed or contract workers though.

Support for small businesses i.e. self employed were outlined earlier in the week.

catsmate 20th March 2020 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13024718)
Nigel Farage says it is time we 'challenged' the Chinese 'regime' and 'enough is enough'.
China should be punished.

By banning imports of Chinese made pharmaceuticals, medical equipment et cetera?

catsmate 20th March 2020 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13026396)
And of course also just announced bars, pubs and restaurants are to close. I get the need to contain the virus but sooner rather than later we are going to see some nasty psychological consequences of a policy which basically amounts to sitting at home staring at the same four walls day after day. I don't care if you've got Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+ its not a substitute for social interaction.

Nice to see you're catching up with the rest of us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13026530)
We can't go to the pub but we can all cram in to supermarket queues.

Not over here. Taped off spaces and enforced separation.

calebprime 20th March 2020 03:54 PM

kudos to my college-town co-op. 9-10 am for immuno-suppressed co-op members. curbside orders and pickup. changing all of their internal procedures.

:thumbsup:

not much panic buying -- except beef, sausage and toilet-paper

a_unique_person 20th March 2020 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13025906)
Oh no, no, no, no, no.....


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Planigale 20th March 2020 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myriad (Post 13025798)
Possibly. I recall seeing a series of tweets from a doctor in an overrun hospital in northern Italy, describing how they used all available standard ventilators, then all available NIVs (non-invasive ventilators), then all available CPAP machines, then all the rigs of some even more basic type. I wasn't sure whether or not they had some way of feeding O2 into the CPAP machines.

Interestingly (or not) it turns out for our local hospital the issue isn't the number of ventilators, but the supply of oxygen. There are more ventilators than the oxygen supply can cope with.

dann 21st March 2020 01:41 AM

A Danish MD living and working in the USA (my translation):

Quote:

... the authorities in the country seem to be far behind many other countries, and the health care system is not equipped to handle it if things go really wrong
- In general we are at least two months behind. And we got hopelessly contradictory information from the federal government, he says.
Danish MD in the USA: 'We're at least two months behind' (DR.dk, March 21, 2020)


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