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-   -   The Labour party has a serious racism problem (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=337508)

Giz 11th July 2019 06:42 AM

The Labour party has a serious racism problem
 
ďBBC Panorama spoke to former party officials, who alleged they had to deal with a huge increase in anti-Semitism complaints since Mr Corbyn became Labour leader in 2015.
Eight former officials who worked in the team and dealt with anti-Semitism cases claimed to the BBC that:

- The leader's office was "angry and obstructive" when it came to the issue
- Officials brought in by the party's general secretary, Jennie Formby, "overruled" some of their disciplinary decisions and "downgraded" punishments to a "slap on the wrist"
- Seumas Milne, one of Mr Corbyn's closest aides, laughed when advised by a long-serving party official about what Mr Corbyn should do to tackle anti-Semitism in the party
- On one occasion, Mr Corbyn's office ordered batches of anti-Semitism complaints to be brought to his Commons office for processing by his aidesĒ

And the Guardianís take on it (itís a real problem):
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-jeremy-corbyn

Arcade22 11th July 2019 09:10 AM

Probably George Galloway style characters and those from Muslim/Arab communities, both of which have a strong tendency to be anti-semitic.

Giz 11th July 2019 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 12752088)
Probably George Galloway style characters and those from Muslim/Arab communities, both of which have a strong tendency to be anti-semitic.

But not just fringe figures. Corbyn and Milne are in the middle of it.

theprestige 11th July 2019 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 12752088)
Probably George Galloway style characters and those from Muslim/Arab communities, both of which have a strong tendency to be anti-semitic.

My understanding is that historically Europeans have also had a strong tendency to be anti-semitic.

The Atheist 11th July 2019 12:38 PM

If there's a way to shoot itself in the foot, Labour will find it.

Jesus, this stuff is stupid.

Venom 11th July 2019 12:40 PM

Mixing objective Israel critics with the antisemites does tend to muddy the waters, possibly benefits the antisemites more than anyone else.

The Atheist 11th July 2019 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 12752339)
Mixing objective Israel critics with the antisemites does tend to muddy the waters, possibly benefits the antisemites more than anyone else.

I agree it's a problem, but the prime beneficiary is Israel.

It allows the country and its insane leaders to commit human rights abuses every day, because criticism is immediately labelled as anti-semitic.

dudalb 11th July 2019 03:41 PM

I think it is safe to say that Corbyn being selected as leader is turning out to be a disaster for Labor. If Labor had a halfway acceptable to people who are not on the far left leader Labor would be looking at a easy win. Instead they seem to be pissing away a golden opportunity against a badly divided and inept Conservative party.

The Don 11th July 2019 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12752490)
I think it is safe to say that Corbyn being selected as leader is turning out to be a disaster for Labor. If Labor had a halfway acceptable to people who are not on the far left leader Labor would be looking at a easy win. Instead they seem to be pissing away a golden opportunity against a badly divided and inept Conservative party.

I agree wholeheartedly. Those of us in the party who were part of the New Labour movement have said this all along. Then again we were written off as "red Tories" by the old Trots and new joiners (who had no memory of the 79-97 period) and instead they chose Jeremy Corbyn.

I wouldn't have minded if I disagreed with many of his policies* if only he had been an effective leader and if only he didn't have a closet full of skeleton (real and imagined) that the Conservatives and their right wing press could use to distract and deflect whenever he was in a position to actually make a point.

* - apart from Brexit, like Tony Blair's policy on Iraq, Brexit is a deal-breaker

lionking 12th July 2019 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12752783)
I agree wholeheartedly. Those of us in the party who were part of the New Labour movement have said this all along. Then again we were written off as "red Tories" by the old Trots and new joiners (who had no memory of the 79-97 period) and instead they chose Jeremy Corbyn.

I wouldn't have minded if I disagreed with many of his policies* if only he had been an effective leader and if only he didn't have a closet full of skeleton (real and imagined) that the Conservatives and their right wing press could use to distract and deflect whenever he was in a position to actually make a point.

* - apart from Brexit, like Tony Blair's policy on Iraq, Brexit is a deal-breaker

Let me know if and when this actually happens.

Corbyn is a disaster. When I look back on past PMs, I look on the forthcoming Johnson vs Corbyn election as a battle between two very average flyweights. I have and always will be of the left, but I want Boris to win (and be immediately deposed, of course).

The Don 12th July 2019 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 12752795)
Let me know if and when this actually happens.

It's already happened several times. Every time he manages to score some points against the Conservatives whether it's about the government's handling of Brexit, the rapid decline of the NHS, the impact of austerity on the poor and disabled or the disaster that is Universal Credit, you can bet that in the next couple of days there'll be something in the paper about Corbyn's past. Usually it's about his love of the IRA or Islamic extremists, sometimes it's about his past relationship with Dianne Abbot and sometimes it's just fingerpointing at his lifestyle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 12752795)
Corbyn is a disaster. When I look back on past PMs, I look on the forthcoming Johnson vs Corbyn election as a battle between two very average flyweights. I have and always will be of the left, but I want Boris to win (and be immediately deposed, of course).

IMO Boris will wipe the floor with Corbyn because the character he plays is designed to appeal to the British public, he uses long words and a significant proportion of the UK electorate seem to like a toff. :mad:

Arcade22 12th July 2019 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12752203)
My understanding is that historically Europeans have also had a strong tendency to be anti-semitic.

Yeah but we're talking about the present, and the fact is that Muslim's, especially Arabs ones, have a strong tendency to be antisemitic.

This isn't even something that is exclusive to Labour or the UK. Typically it's left-wing parties that have sought voters among immigrant communities, a large portion of which are Muslim or originate from Muslim countries. These run a real risk of either coopting, or even being captured, on the local levels by people whose opinions are often completely contrary to what their party notionally stands for.

Giz 15th July 2019 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12752802)
It's already happened several times. Every time he manages to score some points against the Conservatives whether it's about the government's handling of Brexit, the rapid decline of the NHS, the impact of austerity on the poor and disabled or the disaster that is Universal Credit, you can bet that in the next couple of days there'll be something in the paper about Corbyn's past. Usually it's about his love of the IRA or Islamic extremists, sometimes it's about his past relationship with Dianne Abbot and sometimes it's just fingerpointing at his lifestyle.

Straight out of the playbook (i.e. that it's orchestrated).

Here are some others (about anti-Semitism):

In September 2017, general secretary of Unite the Union, Len McCluskey said that the row "was created by people who were trying to undermine Jeremy Corbyn

In May 2019, Labour National Executive Committee member Peter Willsman asserted that the Israeli embassy were "behind all this antisemitism" and were "the ones whipping it all up".


source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antise...39;s_responses


Isn't it nice to see that posters here are so on message.

trustbutverify 15th July 2019 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 12752339)
Mixing objective Israel critics with the antisemites does tend to muddy the waters, possibly benefits the antisemites more than anyone else.

Having anti-Israel activists masquerade as "objective critics" also muddies the water.

Archie Gemmill Goal 15th July 2019 11:18 AM

Both major UK parties have a serious racism issue. It only seems to be a 'problem' for one of them though. Can't think why.... oh wait, yes I can.

JihadJane 16th July 2019 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustbutverify (Post 12755306)
Having anti-Israel activists masquerade as "objective critics" also muddies the water.

What's makes you think anti-Israel activists aren't objective critics?

trustbutverify 16th July 2019 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JihadJane (Post 12755861)
What's makes you think anti-Israel activists aren't objective critics?

Sanity and the ability to reason properly.

Mycroft 16th July 2019 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12752403)
I agree it's a problem, but the prime beneficiary is Israel.

It allows the country and its insane leaders to commit human rights abuses every day, because criticism is immediately labelled as anti-semitic.

That's one way to look at it.

Another way is that Israel is under unprecedented scrutiny because even the obviously kooky and paranoid criticisms get taken seriously because many of the people waving the flags can't see their own biases.

The Atheist 16th July 2019 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12756388)
That's one way to look at it.

Another way is that Israel is under unprecedented scrutiny because even the obviously kooky and paranoid criticisms get taken seriously because many of the people waving the flags can't see their own biases.

Yeah, critics of Israel really need to embrace kooks and paranoids because Israel provides so little ammunition against their own administration.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israe...b02a5a5d5e5f86

trustbutverify 16th July 2019 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12756457)
Yeah, critics of Israel really need to embrace kooks and paranoids because Israel provides so little ammunition against their own administration.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israe...b02a5a5d5e5f86

If "critics" of Israel don't need to embrace kooks and paranoids, why do they keep doing it?

The Atheist 16th July 2019 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustbutverify (Post 12756631)
If "critics" of Israel don't need to embrace kooks and paranoids, why do they keep doing it?

Sorry, I'm not psychic, so I have no idea what drives other people to do it, if it actually happens.

Can you provide evidence that critics of Israel aren't just trolls muddying the water? I ask because Israel's direct policies and actions are quite despicable on their own and making stuff up is unnecessary and unhelpful.

As I said before, the beneficiary of the alleged combining genuine criticism and antisemitism is Israel. It's bloody handy, acting inhumanely towards millions of people, to be able to raise your hands and say "Look at all this antisemtism?" when people ask what the hell's going on.

And it's factual that any criticism of Israel and its revolting human rights record is certain to attract claims of antisemitism, no matter how accurate the criticism.

jimbob 17th July 2019 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12752802)
It's already happened several times. Every time he manages to score some points against the Conservatives whether it's about the government's handling of Brexit, the rapid decline of the NHS, the impact of austerity on the poor and disabled or the disaster that is Universal Credit, you can bet that in the next couple of days there'll be something in the paper about Corbyn's past. Usually it's about his love of the IRA or Islamic extremists, sometimes it's about his past relationship with Dianne Abbot and sometimes it's just fingerpointing at his lifestyle.



IMO Boris will wipe the floor with Corbyn because the character he plays is designed to appeal to the British public, he uses long words and a significant proportion of the UK electorate seem to like a toff. :mad:

I think the classic example was when the government was making a pig's ear of the Cumbrian floods, Corbyn decided it was tine to reopen the case for joint sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.

JihadJane 17th July 2019 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12757065)
I think the classic example was when the government was making a pig's ear of the Cumbrian floods, Corbyn decided it was tine to reopen the case for joint sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.


You're determined string this one out, aren't you?

jimbob 17th July 2019 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JihadJane (Post 12757314)
You're determined string this one out, aren't you?

Well it's a stonking example of really bad tactics. If your political opponents are making a mess - you don't come out with something that the vast majority of British voters don't care about, and which is also unpopular.

Also, given the history of the habitation of the Falkland Islands, with no permanent residents until the British colonists, and their strong desire to remain under British rule - it's also wrongheaded.

ETA: I have also only mentioned it a couple of times

JihadJane 17th July 2019 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12757065)
I think the classic example was when the government was making a pig's ear of the Cumbrian floods, Corbyn decided it was tine to reopen the case for joint sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.

:boxedin:

jimbob 17th July 2019 12:45 PM

Yes, I make typos on my phone

Mycroft 17th July 2019 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12756457)
Yeah, critics of Israel really need to embrace kooks and paranoids because Israel provides so little ammunition against their own administration.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israe...b02a5a5d5e5f86

Religious nutter says something nutty and is widely condemned for it by people from his own party and the Israeli public in general.

To me this seems like an issue where the condemnation should go to Rafi Peretz the individual nutter who made the nutter statements, but for some bizarro reason you think it should reflect on all of Israel? I don't follow your reasoning.

My own country also has a nutter in charge of education who has made nutter statements (such as schools should keep guns on hand in case of bears, which is also pretty anti-gay if you think about it), but critics rightly condemn her as an individual and the administration that appointed her, not the United States as a whole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12756845)
Can you provide evidence that critics of Israel aren't just trolls muddying the water?

Does it matter? If so, why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12756845)
I ask because Israel's direct policies and actions are quite despicable on their own and making stuff up is unnecessary and unhelpful.

Maybe if you ignore the context of a multi-generational conflict, but ignoring that context would be incorrect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12756845)
As I said before, the beneficiary of the alleged combining genuine criticism and antisemitism is Israel.

That's one point of view. Another is that the legitimate criticisms get amplified tremendously both through the actions of overt anti-Semites and also by how its received by those unaware of their own biases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12756845)
It's bloody handy, acting inhumanely towards millions of people, to be able to raise your hands and say "Look at all this antisemtism?" when people ask what the hell's going on.

As someone who follows the issues closely, I can attest it is not true that all criticisms of Israel are deflected by charges of anti-Semitism. At the same time, criticism of Israel is certainly exacerbated by anti-Semitism, so discussion of the issue is certainly relevant and well-poisoning efforts such as this one are misplaced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12756845)
And it's factual that any criticism of Israel and its revolting human rights record is certain to attract claims of antisemitism, no matter how accurate the criticism.

No, that's not factual at all.

Archie Gemmill Goal 17th July 2019 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757674)

My own country also has a nutter in charge of education who has made nutter statements (such as schools should keep guns on hand in case of bears, which is also pretty anti-gay if you think about it), but critics rightly condemn her as an individual and the administration that appointed her, not the United States as a whole.

.

That's not true. The US as a whole comes in for a host of criticism because of its leaders and their policies as well as for the population who vote for them. Of course that criticism is never taken as a personal insult to every member of the population but a criticism of the regime overall.

The confusion seems to be that since Israel sets itself as a religious ethnostate then criticism of the state is seen as criticism of the ethnicity.

Mycroft 17th July 2019 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12757701)
That's not true. The US as a whole comes in for a host of criticism because of its leaders and their policies as well as for the population who vote for them.

Show me some examples?

The Atheist 17th July 2019 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757674)
Religious nutter says something nutty and is widely condemned for it by people from his own party and the Israeli public in general.

But is still Minister of Education.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757674)
To me this seems like an issue where the condemnation should go to Rafi Peretz the individual nutter who made the nutter statements, but for some bizarro reason you think it should reflect on all of Israel? I don't follow your reasoning.

Is he still the Minister of Education?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757674)
My own country also has a nutter in charge of education who has made nutter statements (such as schools should keep guns on hand in case of bears, which is also pretty anti-gay if you think about it), but critics rightly condemn her as an individual and the administration that appointed her, not the United States as a whole.

Donald Trump is one man, and he reflects very badly on USA.

Vote for nutters, expect to be called nutters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757674)
Does it matter? If so, why?

Of course it matters - it's the whole point. We know for certain that people will pretend to be something they're not to advance an opposite agenda, so to have a fair discussion on the subject, evidence of what is really happening would be kinda useful.

I know that some criticism of Israel is due to antisemitism, but how much?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757674)
Maybe if you ignore the context of a multi-generational conflict, but ignoring that context would be incorrect.

Ah, history. Yeah, that's important.

Unless you happen to have had your land confiscated in 1948.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757674)
That's one point of view. Another is that the legitimate criticisms get amplified tremendously both through the actions of overt anti-Semites and also by how its received by those unaware of their own biases.

See above re: evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757674)
As someone who follows the issues closely, I can attest it is not true that all criticisms of Israel are deflected by charges of anti-Semitism.

"Not all".

I guess that's fine then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757674)
At the same time, criticism of Israel is certainly exacerbated by anti-Semitism,...

See above regarding evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757674)
...so discussion of the issue is certainly relevant
and well-poisoning efforts such as this one are misplaced.

"Well poisoning."

Nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757674)
No, that's not factual at all.

Again, I'd need to see some evidence, because my own knowledge certainly shows it to be true most of the time. It's a ridiculously polarising topic.

If I criticise Israel, I get called antisemitic; I stage an anti-protestor protest against clowns trying to stop Israeli players at a tournament and I get called a Jew.

To go back onto the topic of Labour and antisemitism, yes, it has been a problem for the left in general, but how much of it, like Omar's comments, have people screeching "antisemtism!" when it actually isn't?

Ron Obvious 17th July 2019 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757674)

My own country also has a nutter in charge of education who has made nutter statements (such as schools should keep guns on hand in case of bears, which is also pretty anti-gay if you think about it)

Wot? :confused:

ThatGuy11200 17th July 2019 11:40 PM

Recently some Labour peers put out an advert decrying the antisemitism of the Labour Party under Corbyn.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9007986.html

What's interesting is that I don't remember any of them (including the dozen or so former ministers under Blair) speaking out against antisemitism in Labour before Corbyn became Labour leader.

For example, in 2005 when Blair's government put out a poster depicting Michael Howard and Oliver Letwin, both Jewish, as pigs, a clear antisemitic trope, none of them said a word. Peter Hain, for instance, who is one of the signatories on the advert, was Leader of the House of Commons in 2005 when the poster was released.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4223091.stm

It's almost as if they don't actually care about antisemitism and are just cynically using it as a political weapon.

Archie Gemmill Goal 18th July 2019 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12757721)
Show me some examples?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism

Wudang 18th July 2019 09:13 AM

Headline: "Labour staff GMB union branch votes to condemn response to Panorama"



Quote:

Labour staff who are members of the GMB union have voted overwhelmingly to condemn the party's official response to a Panorama programme exploring its response to anti-Semitism.
The branch of party workers voted 124-4 to call on the Labour leadership to issue an apology for their attacks on whistleblowers.
The motion also questioned why Labour had spent money on NDAs, given the party struggled to find a pay rise for its staff and its workers almost went on strike.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...ranch-18336235

Giz 18th July 2019 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wudang (Post 12758678)
Headline: "Labour staff GMB union branch votes to condemn response to Panorama"





https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...ranch-18336235

Good for the GMB. Bad on Labour.

Mycroft 19th July 2019 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12757722)
But is still Minister of Education.

Is he still the Minister of Education?

As far as I know, he hasnít resigned or been removed from office in the last four days since he made those statements. At the same time, as deplorable as his attitudes are, itís not as though he has the authority to create a government sponsored program to create gay conversion camps. I put his odds of staying in office at about 50/50, about the same as if her were an official of the US, Spain, Greece, or any other Western European nation. If he were an official of a South American nation, Eastern Europe or Asia, Iíd put his odds of remaining in office at 100%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12757722)
Of course it matters - it's the whole point. We know for certain that people will pretend to be something they're not to advance an opposite agenda, so to have a fair discussion on the subject, evidence of what is really happening would be kinda useful.

Is this a conspiracy theory? Anti-Semitic nutters are really trolls using anti-Semitism to discredit anti-Israel activists?

Iíll tell you the ones Iíve talked to are quite sincere in their anti-Semitism, many of them claiming not to be anti-Semitic while doing it.

Here is another fellow who is also quite sincere in his anti-Semitism. Iím sure if you ask him he will even describe it as anti-Zionism:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...w-on-the-globe

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12757722)
I know that some criticism of Israel is due to antisemitism, but how much?

Thatís a good and reasonable question. In order to answer it, you have to be willing to look at it honestly. Which means, among other things, maybe not dismiss every instance where anti-Semitism is called out as an attempt to deflect criticism of Israel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12757722)
Ah, history. Yeah, that's important.

Unless you happen to have had your land confiscated in 1948.

Jews also had land confiscated in 1948, land controlled by Arabs was made 100% Jew free. Further, in the years after the war, Jews were expelled from neighboring Arab nations in the time after that war. If youíre not aware of this or think it doesnít matter, then youíve got some filters on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12757722)
"Not all".

I guess that's fine then.

Donít put words in my mouth. You speak for yourself and let me speak for myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12757722)
See above regarding evidence.

Fine, but provide evidence of your own claims too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12757722)

"Well poisoning."

Nice.

Claims that calling out anti-Semitism isnít really used to call out anti-Semitism but to obscure legitimate criticism of Israel seem to me to be an effort to discourage calling out anti-Semitism. To me that seems pretty close to the logical fallacy of poisoning the well, but if you disagree we can certainly discuss coming up with a different term instead and Iíll use that one in the future.

But itís still BS. Anti-Semitism should be called out wherever itís found, and Iím not at all concerned if that creates a problem for people who are also critical of Israel.


Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12757722)
If I criticise Israel, I get called antisemitic; I stage an anti-protestor protest against clowns trying to stop Israeli players at a tournament and I get called a Jew.

Congratulations. You have experienced anti-Semitism in a way that doesnít require being Jewish.

To go back onto the topic of Labour and antisemitism, yes, it has been a problem for the left in general, but how much of it, like Omar's comments, have people screeching "antisemtism!" when it actually isn't? [/quote]

Omarís statements are a great example.

She made some twitter comments that touched on anti-Semitic tropes. They were anti-Semitic.

At the same time, sheís been critical of Israel for a long time, and has made a lot of statements to that effect that (as far as I know) are not anti-Semitic.

Does her anti-Semitic comments mean she hates Jews? Well, not necessarily. Itís very likely she wasnít aware of these tropes and was just repeating things she had heard without ever thinking to question them.

Does that mean her other criticisms of Israel are invalid? Well, to some people maybe it does. To me and most reasonable people I think her other criticisms should be evaluated independently of these statements, they may be valid or not.

I think, and you may or may not agree, that it should be possible to criticize Israel without relying on anti-Semitic tropes, AND itís also fair to call out anti-Semitism wherever you see it, even if itís from someone who is criticizing Israel.

Mycroft 19th July 2019 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12758192)

Fair enough.

I would consider this kind of anti-Americanism as a form of prejudice.

Would you agree?

The Atheist 19th July 2019 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12759980)
Omarís statements are a great example.

She made some twitter comments that touched on anti-Semitic tropes. They were anti-Semitic.

At the same time, sheís been critical of Israel for a long time, and has made a lot of statements to that effect that (as far as I know) are not anti-Semitic.

Does her anti-Semitic comments mean she hates Jews? Well, not necessarily. Itís very likely she wasnít aware of these tropes and was just repeating things she had heard without ever thinking to question them.

I'd go along with that. Another good example of the same effect is Jill Stein took a lot of flak for cosying up to antivax sentiment, which I doubt she realised.

Hopefully, Omar will think a bit harder next time because it is a minefield, but one without a handy warning sign.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12759980)
Does that mean her other criticisms of Israel are invalid? Well, to some people maybe it does. To me and most reasonable people I think her other criticisms should be evaluated independently of these statements, they may be valid or not.

The number of people capable of that nuanced thinking are few & far between.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12759980)
I think, and you may or may not agree, that it should be possible to criticize Israel without relying on anti-Semitic tropes, AND itís also fair to call out anti-Semitism wherever you see it, even if itís from someone who is criticizing Israel.

I'd agree 100%, but the problem will always exist - on both sides - of being used by people with their own agenda.

Quite funny really - I can't think of any other issue that divides people so viscerally on both sides of the political spectrum. UK Labour is a perfect example - they unquestionably have antisemites in the party. As well as that, the broad left has long been anti-Israel, for what I'd certainly call their sins, and it's not always straightforward to know which of those two camps people are in.

Archie Gemmill Goal 19th July 2019 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12759981)
Fair enough.

I would consider this kind of anti-Americanism as a form of prejudice.

Would you agree?

It depends. And that's pretty much exactly the sticking point here.

If people are 'Anti-American' in that they object to the actions of the country, its politics, what it stands for etc then no.

If people are 'Anti-American' in that they hate American people because of the actions of the country then yes.

If I decide to, for example, boycott Coca-Cola because of Trump then I am not being prejudiced against Americans.

And that would be very different in nature to finding out where an American family live near me and scrawling 'Trump is a racist' on their door.

Mycroft 25th July 2019 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12759995)
I'd go along with that. Another good example of the same effect is Jill Stein took a lot of flak for cosying up to antivax sentiment, which I doubt she realised.

Hopefully, Omar will think a bit harder next time because it is a minefield, but one without a handy warning sign.



The number of people capable of that nuanced thinking are few & far between.



I'd agree 100%, but the problem will always exist - on both sides - of being used by people with their own agenda.

Quite funny really - I can't think of any other issue that divides people so viscerally on both sides of the political spectrum. UK Labour is a perfect example - they unquestionably have antisemites in the party. As well as that, the broad left has long been anti-Israel, for what I'd certainly call their sins, and it's not always straightforward to know which of those two camps people are in.

It seems like you and I found some common ground, even though we came from different sides of the issue. :thumbsup:


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