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-   -   What was America’s biggest politcal lie? (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335537)

Ladewig 26th March 2019 09:38 PM

What was America’s biggest politcal lie?
 
Representative Mo Brooks (Alabama) has a answer.
In a recent speech he compared today’s Democrats to Nazi Germany’s leaders in that they both perpetrated the Big Lie and that they were both socialists. His argument’s conclusion was simple:

"For more than two years, socialist Democrats and their fake news media allies - CNN, MSNBC, the New York Times, Washington Post and countless others - have perpetrated the biggest political lie, con, scam and fraud in American history," Brooks continued, arguing that Attorney General William P. Barr's conclusions exposed the accusations of collusion as "nothing but a big lie."

I wondered how other board members would answer the question in the thread’s title?

I wasn’t sure how to define the question. Does biggest lie mean the most outrageous? The most widely-believed? The most damaging? The most enduring? Something else?

“I am not a crook”? 1973
“I did not have sex with that woman”? 1998
“We did not, I repeat, did not trade weapons or anything else [to Iran] for hostages, nor will we,” 1985
“U-2 spy planes are not flying over the Soviet Union.” 1960
“Spain sunk the USS Maine.” 1898

Skeptic Ginger 26th March 2019 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladewig (Post 12646617)
Representative Mo Brooks (Alabama) has a answer.
In a recent speech he compared today’s Democrats to Nazi Germany’s leaders in that they both perpetrated the Big Lie and that they were both socialists. His argument’s conclusion was simple:

"For more than two years, socialist Democrats and their fake news media allies - CNN, MSNBC, the New York Times, Washington Post and countless others - have perpetrated the biggest political lie, con, scam and fraud in American history," Brooks continued, arguing that Attorney General William P. Barr's conclusions exposed the accusations of collusion as "nothing but a big lie."

The way this propaganda has taken hold it's getting really scary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladewig (Post 12646617)
I wondered how other board members would answer the question in the thread’s title?

I wasn’t sure how to define the question. Does biggest lie mean the most outrageous? The most widely-believed? The most damaging? The most enduring? Something else?

“I am not a crook”? 1973
“I did not have sex with that woman”? 1998 [much too minor]
“We did not, I repeat, did not trade weapons or anything else [to Iran] for hostages, nor will we,” 1985
“U-2 spy planes are not flying over the Soviet Union.” 1960
“Spain sunk the USS Maine.” 1898

ftfy

I think Saddam's WMDs is up there as is the whole slew of lies revealed in the Pentagon Papers.

Cabbage 26th March 2019 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladewig (Post 12646617)
Representative Mo Brooks (Alabama) has a answer.
In a recent speech he compared today’s Democrats to Nazi Germany’s leaders in that they both perpetrated the Big Lie and that they were both socialists. His argument’s conclusion was simple:

The irony, of course, is that the Nazis never perpetrated the "Big Lie". The term as used by the Nazis was to describe the propaganda of the opposition (Jews)...just like Mo is doing.

Lambchops 26th March 2019 10:49 PM

We are not going to discuss wether or not the Nazis were socialists.

Ladewig 26th March 2019 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12646619)
The way this propaganda has taken hold it's getting really scary.

ftfy

I think Saddam's WMDs is up there as is the whole slew of lies revealed in the Pentagon Papers.

Yes, I should have thought of that one.

Ladewig 26th March 2019 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lambchops (Post 12646631)
We are not going to discuss wether or not the Nazis were socialists.

It does seem to be popping up with more frequency in the past year, but I th8nk I’m hesitant to call it the biggest in US history.

Venom 27th March 2019 12:34 AM

Saddam's WMDs wasn't the biggest lie. It just had arguably the biggest consequence.

The Great Zaganza 27th March 2019 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 12646664)
Saddam's WMDs wasn't the biggest lie. It just had arguably the biggest consequence.

I'd say the biggest lie in America's history is that paying taxes is the same thing as oppression and requires a revolution.

applecorped 27th March 2019 03:28 AM

Hillary in a landslide

Worm 27th March 2019 03:40 AM

Democrats are socialists? Not even close.

Belz... 27th March 2019 04:15 AM

Quote:

What was America’s biggest politcal lie?
I don't know about biggest, but for most blatant, "I said Tim Cook, Apple" is right up there.

Planigale 27th March 2019 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 12646671)
I'd say the biggest lie in America's history is that paying taxes is the same thing as oppression and requires a revolution.

Perhaps there is a lesson about the consequences of import tariffs?

mumblethrax 27th March 2019 05:08 AM

The Lost Cause.

JoeMorgue 27th March 2019 05:32 AM

This sort of thing is hard to scale in some exact "big, bigger, biggest" sort of way, but I'd put the Red Scare up there. It was ground zero for "There's a hidden subversive element in the government, and if you disagree you are by definition part of that element." mentality.

Belz... 27th March 2019 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12646807)
This sort of thing is hard to scale in some exact "big, bigger, biggest" sort of way, but I'd put the Red Scare up there. It was ground zero for "There's a hidden subversive element in the government, and if you disagree you are by definition part of that element." mentality.

Though the Soviets, of course, did try to infiltrate the US for intelligence and counter-intelligence purposes. So it's not as much as lie as it's an exaggeration.

TragicMonkey 27th March 2019 05:45 AM

The whole schtick about equality and freedom being blared about to justify the Revolution and pretty much everything afterwards, while maintaining slavery for a century after and disenfranchisement of women and minorities afterwards, that's a rather tall lie that gets in one's face.

But on a more practical level I'd have to say the treaties the US kept making and breaking with the Native Americans. Hundreds of agreements and hundreds of betrayals. There was never the slightest good faith on the part of the US with those treaties, and we're still screwing them over to this day.

JoeMorgue 27th March 2019 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12646826)
Though the Soviets, of course, did try to infiltrate the US for intelligence and counter-intelligence purposes. So it's not as much as lie as it's an exaggeration.

Lies with a hint of truth are the worst ones.

The worst kind of lies are the ones that can be defended with a "Well technically...."

GnaGnaMan 27th March 2019 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mumblethrax (Post 12646796)
The Lost Cause.

This, by a mile...

BStrong 27th March 2019 06:19 AM

That America was born civilized.

Thermal 27th March 2019 06:58 AM

'Indians'.

Belz... 27th March 2019 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan (Post 12646849)
This, by a mile...

Yeah, that's a good contender.

But is it a country mile?

Stacko 27th March 2019 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mumblethrax (Post 12646796)
The Lost Cause.

This with an honorable mention to "America was founded as a Christian nation."

shemp 27th March 2019 07:21 AM

Quite a bit of the Declaration of Independence.

Belz... 27th March 2019 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shemp (Post 12646942)
Quite a bit of the Declaration of Independence.

Yeah it should say "that all men are created separate but equal" or somesuch.

Thermal 27th March 2019 07:31 AM

"I swear to uphold the Constitution..."

Cavemonster 27th March 2019 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12646827)
The whole schtick about equality and freedom being blared about to justify the Revolution and pretty much everything afterwards, while maintaining slavery for a century after and disenfranchisement of women and minorities afterwards, that's a rather tall lie that gets in one's face.

But on a more practical level I'd have to say the treaties the US kept making and breaking with the Native Americans. Hundreds of agreements and hundreds of betrayals. There was never the slightest good faith on the part of the US with those treaties, and we're still screwing them over to this day.

I'd agree with this.

And if it needs to be a single statement, I'd nominate:

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"

To lead your declaration with that and then own people for almost three quarters of a century afterwards has the be the most blantant lie, the most consequential and the most central to the heart of our country.

Stout 27th March 2019 07:33 AM

There's an interesting miniseries out there in Internet land, American History’s Biggest Fibs with Lucy Worsley, that's worth watching (IM0)

CORed 27th March 2019 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 12646664)
Saddam's WMDs wasn't the biggest lie. It just had arguably the biggest consequence.

I've never been convinced that it was a lie, as I think the Bush Administration people believed it when they said it. Sure, they indulged in a lot of cherry picking, ignoring evidence that contradicted their beliefs, and embracing questionable evidence that supported them, but, I think they genuinely believed that Iran had WMD's when they were pushing for the invasion. I also think they truly believed that once they got rid of Saddam, occupying Iran would be a piece of cake. They were, of course completely wrong in both beliefs.

CORed 27th March 2019 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worm (Post 12646760)
Democrats are socialists? Not even close.

Definitely. However, in the Republican universe, anybody that wants to raise taxes, or offer health care to non-rich people is a socialist.

Trebuchet 27th March 2019 09:16 AM

Brooks' own "Democrats=Socialists=Nazis" is a pretty big lie all on its own.

Skeptic Ginger 27th March 2019 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 12646664)
Saddam's WMDs wasn't the biggest lie. It just had arguably the biggest consequence.

Then how are you measuring the size of the lie?

Skeptic Ginger 27th March 2019 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12646778)
I don't know about biggest, but for most blatant, "I said Tim Cook, Apple" is right up there.

Really hard to pick which of Trump's 9,000+ lies are the biggest.

I'd go with:
I have a great health plan.
Mexico will pay for the wall.

Skeptic Ginger 27th March 2019 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12646807)
This sort of thing is hard to scale in some exact "big, bigger, biggest" sort of way, but I'd put the Red Scare up there. It was ground zero for "There's a hidden subversive element in the government, and if you disagree you are by definition part of that element." mentality.

Gosh yes, that one belongs up there with the top contenders.

Belz... 27th March 2019 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stout (Post 12646958)
There's an interesting miniseries out there in Internet land, American History’s Biggest Fibs with Lucy Worsley, that's worth watching (IM0)

"In my zero"?

ponderingturtle 27th March 2019 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladewig (Post 12646617)
“I am not a crook”? 1973

The funny thing is that people forget this had nothing to do with Watergate or Obstruction of Justice. It was about lying on his taxes(which he also totally did).

Skeptic Ginger 27th March 2019 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CORed (Post 12647021)
I've never been convinced that it was a lie, as I think the Bush Administration people believed it when they said it. Sure, they indulged in a lot of cherry picking, ignoring evidence that contradicted their beliefs, and embracing questionable evidence that supported them, but, I think they genuinely believed that Iran had WMD's when they were pushing for the invasion. I also think they truly believed that once they got rid of Saddam, occupying Iran would be a piece of cake. They were, of course completely wrong in both beliefs.

It doesn't matter they believed in their lie. But truth be told they fabricated evidence, they didn't just cherry pick.

Iamafalser 27th March 2019 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12647075)
Brooks' own "Democrats=Socialists=Nazis" is a pretty big lie all on its own.

The Nazis were much better organized and actually cared about their country.

Beerina 27th March 2019 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz...
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stout (Post 12646958)
There's an interesting miniseries out there in Internet land, American History’s Biggest Fibs with Lucy Worsley, that's worth watching (IM0)

"In my zero"?


Keep your fingers out of my zero...without my permission of course.

Stout 27th March 2019 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12647091)
"In my zero"?

Jeez, you just can't sneak anything by anybody anymore, can you ?

there's also a British History's 8iggest fibs as well.

Venom 27th March 2019 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12647077)
Then how are you measuring the size of the lie?

How blatantly untrue it is in the face of strong evidence to the contrary.

There were conflicting reports on Saddam's arsenal and Bush, Cheney and let the warhawk in them lead. I mean it was like the assault on the bin Laden compound, only Obama didn't make it public until after the fact.


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