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-   -   Rape victim to pay child support to her rapist (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359636)

Warp12 18th June 2022 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13836286)
Does it really matter exactly what kind of rape took place?


From the standpoint of sentencing and charges it certainly matters.

I'm already on record as stating that I think that the LA law is bogus in regards to statutory rape. Not only in the age of consent, but especially in the idea that even if a woman so goes as far as to show you her ID, it is still considered "rape". Her whole case really hinges on this interpretation. Otherwise, she is apparently just another mom who mothered a child from some one night stand, and violated a custody agreement.

I think most of the people arguing against this guy think the law is fair...so, we will never agree on that point.

lionking 18th June 2022 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarge (Post 13836285)
I never once made such a claim. That statement is either an honest mistake or a lie.

How is one to interpret this comment of yours?

Quote:

And irrelevant unless it is k own or suspected that the father is of an age to make the sexual encounter statutory rape. There was absolutely no indication, no evidence at all that this was the case. Therefore, the fact of her pregnancy was in no way at all indication that statutory rape had occurred.
Where is it undoubted that Barnes fathered a child by raping a girl under the age of consent? DNA tests proved he did.

Do you want to withdraw the lie claim?

Darat 18th June 2022 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 13836290)
How is one to interpret this comment of yours?



Where is it undoubted that Barnes fathered a child by raping a girl under the age of consent? DNA tests proved he did.

Do you want to withdraw the lie claim?

sarge was talking about when she gave birth to her daughter.

Warp12 18th June 2022 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13836293)
sarge was talking about when she gave birth to her daughter.


That seemed very clear to me, as well.

lionking 18th June 2022 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13836293)
sarge was talking about when she gave birth to her daughter.

So what? The age of the girl when raped is the only issue.

Darat 18th June 2022 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 13836296)
So what? The age of the girl when raped is the only issue.

And?

lionking 18th June 2022 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13836301)
And?

And sarge is somehow suggesting that statutory rape didnít occur despite the dates being undisputed.

bluesjnr 18th June 2022 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13836232)
We could save a lot of time and trouble if certain posters in this thread would just come right and say that theyíre grown men who want to **** teenage girls. All this tap dancing around it is becoming quite tedious.

I'll tell you what is tedious.....

Darat 18th June 2022 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 13836304)
And sarge is somehow suggesting that statutory rape didnít occur despite the dates being undisputed.

No they aren't. What sarge is saying that when she gave birth she did not say that a 30 year old man was the father i.e. making it statutory rape, according to the reports she said it was a boyfriend's.

Therefore there was no reason for the medical professionals to report this birth - I said at the beginning of the thread that I was surprised this wasn't notifiable, but that was before I knew she had said the child was her boyfriend's.

sarge 18th June 2022 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 13836296)
So what? The age of the girl when raped is the only issue.

Not in the context of the actual discussion I was engaged in. One more chance for you to admit it was an honest mistake. Hereís the context:

My claim is that at the time of birth there was no indication of rape because the mother had listed as the father her teenage boyfriend and had not at that time named the true father.

I have consistently and without fail also posted that this was rape, that I donít understand why the father ever got custody, and that the system failed both the mother and the child.

lionking 18th June 2022 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13836311)
No they aren't. What sarge is saying that when she gave birth she did not say that a 30 year old man was the father i.e. making it statutory rape, according to the reports she said it was a boyfriend's.

Therefore there was no reason for the medical professionals to report this birth - I said at the beginning of the thread that I was surprised this wasn't notifiable, but that was before I knew she had said the child was her boyfriend's.

So what? It is beyond doubt that Barnes is the father making it statutory rape. Sargeís comment:

Quote:

fact of her pregnancy was in no way at all indication that statutory rape had occurred
.

Is rubbish.

sarge 18th June 2022 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 13836314)
So what? It is beyond doubt that Barnes is the father making it statutory rape. Sargeís comment:

.

Is rubbish.

Not an honest mistake. Got it.

Darat 18th June 2022 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 13836314)
So what? It is beyond doubt that Barnes is the father making it statutory rape. Sargeís comment:

.

Is rubbish.

Might be rubbish but given the accounts we have that was the case when she gave birth. Time is one way, the medical professionals at the time couldnít have known that 5 years after the birth it would be proved the child was a man in his thirties and therefore she had been raped.

johnny karate 18th June 2022 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13836250)
It's never "reasonable" to call someone a defender of a hideous crime, when they say repeatedly they condemn it, and are simply straightening out details for accuracy. Sarge was correctly stating that rape was not even alluded to early on. He is entirely correct in that. Can you explain how that is defending rape? If not, he was being hard core trolled, with severe dishonesty.



That's exactly what trolling does, and is intended to do: get a rise out of a poster.

Calling anyone in this thread a "rape apologist" is dead-ass trolling. No one, but no one, in this discussion is saying rape is ok. We can argue about whether the AOC is a bit archaic compared to the rest of the country, and whether doing due diligence to verify age should be a mitigating factor. But not a single poster is defending, or providing apologetics, for the act of rape.

Actually, quite a few of them are.

johnny karate 18th June 2022 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13836328)
Actually, quite a few of them are.

And we didnít have to wait long for some fresh examples:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13836281)
Interesting further developments:

1) Now it is stated that she was using a fake ID that evening.

Does it matter in LA? No, it doesn't. But it does further support the idea that the man was misled about her age. To me that is important in how I view any consensual sex that may have occurred. Certainly some here do not care of such things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13836288)
I'm already on record as stating that I think that the LA law is bogus in regards to statutory rape. Not only in the age of consent, but especially in the idea that even if a woman so goes as far as to show you her ID, it is still considered "rape".


We quite literally have an argument stating that this rape shouldnít actually be considered a rape.

It doesnít get much more pro-rape than that.

johnny karate 18th June 2022 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesjnr (Post 13836310)
I'll tell you what is tedious.....

Having to carefully check IDs to make sure banging drunk teenage girls isnít a felony?

Warp12 18th June 2022 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13836335)
And we didn’t have to wait long for some fresh examples:




We quite literally have an argument stating that this rape shouldn’t actually be considered a rape.

It doesn’t get much more pro-rape than that.


Using your criteria, 31 states and most of the western world are "rape apologists/pro-rape" because they have settled on an age of consent of 16. And, you are saying that if someone feels that misrepresentation of age, including falsified identification (which this woman also had), should be taken into consideration...they too are "rape apologists".

Feel free to clarify if I am wrong on your stance. Otherwise, we have nothing further to debate on this point.

johnny karate 18th June 2022 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13836340)
Using your criteria, 31 states and most of the western world are "rape apologists" because they have settled on an age of consent of 16. And, you are saying that if someone feels that misrepresentation of age, including falsified identification (which this woman also had), should be taken into consideration...they too are "rape apologists".

Feel free to clarify if I am wrong on your stance. Otherwise, we have nothing further to debate on this point.

Iíve already clearly made known my feelings about age of consent laws.

Youíre literally offering excuses for an undisputed rapist (including victim blaming) and arguing that the rape he committed shouldnít be considered rape.

No amount of rationalizing prevents that from being textbook rape apologism.

Thermal 18th June 2022 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13836338)
Having to carefully check IDs to make sure banging drunk teenage girls isnít a felony?

I don't know the current quality of fake IDs, but if they passed muster with the bartender/bouncer, should the average guy looking to get lucky be a better evaluator?

I am not into under 21s at all. Generally just look like kids to me, even being smoking hot and all that. But that's me; I can't really fault a 30 yr old guy who is into 22 yo tail and wants to score some if he can. That math even passes the Half +7 rule.

The problem is, what if she's 16 and passes for 22? Surely we've all known young women who could. While the guy is legally on the hook, would he really be considered a predator if he was fooled by fake ID as the bar workers were? I can see this argument to some extent, anyway.

johnny karate 18th June 2022 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13836357)
I don't know the current quality of fake IDs, but if they passed muster with the bartender/bouncer, should the average guy looking to get lucky be a better evaluator?

I am not into under 21s at all. Generally just look like kids to me, even being smoking hot and all that. But that's me; I can't really fault a 30 yr old guy who is into 22 yo tail and wants to score some if he can. That math even passes the Half +7 rule.

The problem is, what if she's 16 and passes for 22? Surely we've all known young women who could. While the guy is legally on the hook, would he really be considered a predator if he was fooled by fake ID as the bar workers were? I can see this argument to some extent, anyway.

The law doesnít.

And as Iíve stated pretty much every time weíre looking to make things easier for the rapist, grown men who **** teenage girls donít get much sympathy or benefit of the doubt from me.

bluesjnr 18th June 2022 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13836338)
Having to carefully check IDs to make sure banging drunk teenage girls isnít a felony?

I wouldn't know having had no experience, have you found it to be so?

Thermal 18th June 2022 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13836364)
The law doesnít.

And as Iíve stated pretty much every time weíre looking to make things easier for the rapist, grown men who **** teenage girls donít get much sympathy or benefit of the doubt from me.

I hear that. Just trying to put some of the arguments here in context. These guys aren't defending rape. They are saying someone who gets snowed by an older looking teen with good fake ID maybe doesn't earn the Mantle of Pedo. And they do have a fair point.

pgwenthold 18th June 2022 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13836393)
I hear that. Just trying to put some of the arguments here in context. These guys aren't defending rape. They are saying someone who gets snowed by an older looking teen with good fake ID maybe doesn't earn the Mantle of Pedo. And they do have a fair point.

Not really. This is long established law.

I put these arguments into the same category of those who try to deflect gay marriage arguments by claiming that the whole institution of marriage shouldn't exist. Regardless of the arguments put forth, it's howling into the wind. It's once again fan fiction. In in alternate reality, this is the way it should be....

Sorry, but reality hasn't been suspended.

johnny karate 18th June 2022 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesjnr (Post 13836384)
I wouldn't know having had no experience, have you found it to be so?

As someone firmly not on the side of being cool with grown men having sex with underage girls, why would I?

Darat 18th June 2022 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 13836270)
So what? Is there a time limit in declaring you were raped?

Sargeís conjecture that the mother might not have been raped is rubbish and therefore rape apologism.

It would be rubbish IF they had ever said that.

johnny karate 18th June 2022 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13836393)
I hear that. Just trying to put some of the arguments here in context. These guys aren't defending rape. They are saying someone who gets snowed by an older looking teen with good fake ID maybe doesn't earn the Mantle of Pedo. And they do have a fair point.

Warp12 has very unambiguously argued that this rape shouldn't really count as a rape and that the law defining it as such is bogus.

As far as this whole fake ID canard, being tricked into sex by an underage girl is a problem that absolutely does not exist for non-predatory men.

johnny karate 18th June 2022 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 13836399)
Not really. This is long established law.

I put these arguments into the same category of those who try to deflect gay marriage arguments by claiming that the whole institution of marriage shouldn't exist. Regardless of the arguments put forth, it's howling into the wind. It's once again fan fiction. In in alternate reality, this is the way it should be....

Sorry, but reality hasn't been suspended.

Good faith arguments can be made to question the ethics or morality of a potentially unjust law.

But for the life of me, I just can't come up with a good ethical or moral argument against laws that make it harder for adult men to **** teenage girls.

Darat 18th June 2022 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 13836290)
How is one to interpret this comment of yours?



Where is it undoubted that Barnes fathered a child by raping a girl under the age of consent? DNA tests proved he did.

Do you want to withdraw the lie claim?

That isn't a lie that is cold blooded fact.

Lets try again - Sarge was referring to what was known at the time of birth, he brought this up to be a counterpoint to how a few of us wondered why the birth was not notifiable since she had to have become pregnant under the age of consent. As we've found out she said at the time of birth it was a boyfriend's child.

That is why there is no blame on the medical staff at the time for not reporting a rape.

I really can't understand how you can't understand this.

The rape happened, she became pregnant, she gave birth, she said it was her boyfriend's, the medical staff at the time did not notify anyone because they thought it was the boyfriend's.

That is the point sarge was making. Nothing at all in any shape or form an apologetic for a rape.

Thermal 18th June 2022 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 13836399)
Not really. This is long established law.

I put these arguments into the same category of those who try to deflect gay marriage arguments by claiming that the whole institution of marriage shouldn't exist. Regardless of the arguments put forth, it's howling into the wind. It's once again fan fiction. In in alternate reality, this is the way it should be....

Sorry, but reality hasn't been suspended.

It was posted in yea verily this very thread that California interprets it just this way. Not exactly a small, backwards State. Is Cali not real? Is the world's fifth largest economy just a fan fic that doesn't exist?

johnny karate 18th June 2022 01:43 PM

Delete. Misunderstood the point being made.

smartcooky 18th June 2022 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13836322)
Might be rubbish but given the accounts we have that was the case when she gave birth. Time is one way, the medical professionals at the time couldn’t have known that 5 years after the birth it would be proved the child was a man in his thirties and therefore she had been raped.

Utter rubbish! They didn't need to bloody well know!! The FACT of her age shows that the baby was conceived at a time when the girl was under age. This ought to have been reported, at the very least to Louisiana DCFS, so that they could investigate. First question they needed to ask was "who is the father?". If she refused to answer, report this to the Police for further investigation. It wouldn't take them long to get to the truth that she was raped by RapeGuy.

I don't buy the shtick that merely because she said "the boyfriend did it", that no further investigation need be carried out. If a girl turned up at to a hospital with a black eye and a fractured jaw, and said "the boyfriend did it", do you think the answer would be.... "OK, nothing to see here"? Of course, not. The hospital would immediately report this to Child Protection and probably the police.

bluesjnr 18th June 2022 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13836417)
As someone firmly not on the side of being cool with grown men having sex with underage girls, why would I?

You alluded some measure of experience with the tedium involved in checking ID's. You were able to put a time v benefit value to it, I just followed your previous reasoning in this thread and did the math.

It's sloppy math but it's your math...

bluesjnr 18th June 2022 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13836485)
Utter rubbish! They didn't need to bloody well know!! The FACT of her age shows that the baby was conceived at a time when the girl was under age. This ought to have been reported, at the very least to Louisiana DCFS, so that they could investigate. First question they needed to ask was "who is the father?". If she refused to answer, report this to the Police for further investigation. It wouldn't take them long to get to the truth that she was raped by RapeGuy.

I have to say that this is irrefutable logic.

smartcooky 18th June 2022 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13836393)
I hear that. Just trying to put some of the arguments here in context. These guys aren't defending rape. They are saying someone who gets snowed by an older looking teen with good fake ID maybe doesn't earn the Mantle of Pedo. And they do have a fair point.

No, they don't.

When you are in your 30's, you should not even be sniffing around girls near that age in the first place. If you are, and you get "snowed by an older looking teen" then you are a ******* creep who deserves whatever happens to you.

As I and others have pointed out previously, the age of consent is like the edge of a cliff.. if you get too close, you could fall off. Even if you think you are safe (well she looked 19!!) appearances can be deceiving, the cliff edge might not be stable.

Thermal 18th June 2022 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13836502)
No, they don't.

When you are in your 30's, you should not even be sniffing around girls near that age in the first place. If you are, and you get "snowed by an older looking teen" then you are a ******* creep who deserves whatever happens to you.

A thirty year old hounding on a 22? That's right on the half plus 7 rule, widely acknowledged as the okay line. The trick is, if a younger woman looks to be 22, is in a bar with fake ID, the guy could think he's playing clean. Not all 16s could pass, of course, but I can certainly point to a dozen in the local high school that could.

Quote:

As I and others have pointed out previously, the age of consent is like the edge of a cliff.. if you get too close, you could fall off.
Yeah, that was me that introduced that analogy.

Quote:

Even if you think you are safe (well she looked 19!!) appearances can be deceiving, the cliff edge might not be stable.
Doesn't answer the conditions proposed. 16yo who looks 22 and has fake ID at a bar. Is the guy a Pedo, or simply duped?

I'd say duped. For my part, I didnt pick up strangers, so hard for me to entirely relate. But I'm not pushing my personal standards on others, either.

sarge 18th June 2022 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13836513)
A thirty year old hounding on a 22? That's right on the half plus 7 rule, widely acknowledged as the okay line. The trick is, if a younger woman looks to be 22, is in a bar with fake ID, the guy could think he's playing clean. Not all 16s could pass, of course, but I can certainly point to a dozen in the local high school that could.



Yeah, that was me that introduced that analogy.



Doesn't answer the conditions proposed. 16yo who looks 22 and has fake ID at a bar. Is the guy a Pedo, or simply duped?

I'd say duped. For my part, I didnt pick up strangers, so hard for me to entirely relate. But I'm not pushing my personal standards on others, either.

Rape is rape, so I donít accept as an excuse any condition that the law excludes as not mitigating in the jurisdiction where the act occurred. If the age of consent is 16 and the law does not permit a Ďshe liedí defense, then donít tiptoe anywhere near the edge.

As a separate discussion, how would one be a pedophile for being attracted to what one believes to be an adult? Rapist and pedophile are not synonyms.

Thermal 18th June 2022 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarge (Post 13836534)
Rape is rape, so I don’t accept as an excuse any condition that the law excludes as not mitigating in the jurisdiction where the act occurred. If the age of consent is 16 and the law does not permit a ‘she lied’ defense, then don’t tiptoe anywhere near the edge.

As a separate discussion, how would one be a pedophile for being attracted to what one believes to be an adult? Rapist and pedophile are not synonyms.

Yeah, that's the point. "Pedo" is starting to get slid into the arguments here (or at least "guys who deliberately want to cruise for underage schoolgirls").

My question is, does a guy legit duped deserve the same disgrace? I don't think so. Was Barnes one of those guys?

Eta: and when you say "don't tiptoe near the edge, how in the ever loving **** are you supposed to know you are near the edge in a bar? You have every reason to think the woman is 5 freaking years over AoC and you are at half plus 7, so absolutely nowhere near the line?

bluesjnr 18th June 2022 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarge (Post 13836534)
Rape is rape, so I donít accept as an excuse any condition that the law excludes as not mitigating in the jurisdiction where the act occurred. If the age of consent is 16 and the law does not permit a Ďshe liedí defense, then donít tiptoe anywhere near the edge.

As a separate discussion, how would one be a pedophile for being attracted to what one believes to be an adult? Rapist and pedophile are not synonyms.

99% of respondents here donít understand the meaning of the word paedo. Doesnít stop many of them throwing it around.

Thermal 18th June 2022 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesjnr (Post 13836540)
99% of respondents here donít understand the meaning of the word paedo. Doesnít stop many of them throwing it around.

Pretty sure everyone knows the clinical textbook definition. Its meant as an unflattering figure of speech for grown men chasing underage tail.

Matthew Best 18th June 2022 04:04 PM

"Pedo guy" is simply heated rhetoric and not meant as a statement of fact. It's just slang for "creepy old guy". Ask Elon Musk.


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