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-   -   Split Thread: A second impeachment (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348878)

JoeMorgue 8th January 2021 02:05 PM

A second impeachment
 
And dust this back off....

New Articles of Impeachment coming on Monday, including “incitement of insurrection.”

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/08/polit...ans/index.html

Leftus 8th January 2021 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13052744)
It does mean that new restrictions have to have some sort of constitutional basis. The Senate can't simply say, "because we're constitutionally authorized to approve Cabinet nominees, we're also authorized to approve any and all Executive branch employees."

And I doubt Congress can simply pass a law making it so.

Nor would they want to. I've been hired to 4 different jobs inside my Executive branch agency and it would totally suck to have to get senate approval for every last one of them.

This is not to mention the nightmare that would happen when we hire a few dozen people off the streets, as it were, to start their careers. There is a security check, but Senate approval for a mail clerk? Wouldn't be a fan. I don't think they would even want a part of that.

acbytesla 8th January 2021 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13353239)
And dust this back off....

New Articles of Impeachment coming on Monday, including ďincitement of insurrection.Ē

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/08/polit...ans/index.html

Yeah. Pelosi is pissed. McCarthy is crying this is too divisive. But that is the point.

He's terrified that this will split the GOP because they will have to stand on one side or the other.

Meadmaker 8th January 2021 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13353282)
Yeah. Pelosi is pissed. McCarthy is crying this is too divisive. But that is the point.

He's terrified that this will split the GOP because they will have to stand on one side or the other.

One way Tim could make it a lot less divisive is to encourage all the Republicans to vote for it.




I don't think that they should press articles of impeachment unless they are confident they have the votes for a conviction, but the idea that it is too divisive kind of sticks in my craw. Too divisive is continuing to support a lunatic who tried to overturn a democratic election.

Dr. Keith 8th January 2021 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13353381)
One way Tim could make it a lot less divisive is to encourage all the Republicans to vote for it.




I don't think that they should press articles of impeachment unless they are confident they have the votes for a conviction, but the idea that it is too divisive kind of sticks in my craw. Too divisive is continuing to support a lunatic who tried to overturn a democratic election.

I think it should be pressed just so that we can get another choice quote from Sen Collins about how much Trump has grown through this whole ordeal. Her state deserves better, but maybe that needs to be made more clear.

That is to say, I think they will have the votes this time.

acbytesla 8th January 2021 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13353381)
One way Tim could make it a lot less divisive is to encourage all the Republicans to vote for it.

I don't think that they should press articles of impeachment unless they are confident they have the votes for a conviction, but the idea that it is too divisive kind of sticks in my craw. Too divisive is continuing to support a lunatic who tried to overturn a democratic election.

Pedantic correction.
It's Kevin McCarthy.

Whether he is impeached or not, there are going to be consequences.

Segnosaur 8th January 2021 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13353429)
Pedantic correction.
It's Kevin McCarthy.

Whether he is impeached or not, there are going to be consequences.

Yes, but if he's not impeached, then during later elections the republican candidates will find it easier to lie about where they stand on things.

If Trump is impeached again, each congress-critter will have to give a "yay or nay" to Trump's actions in encouraging the riot. That makes it much harder for them to hide their true beliefs.

dudalb 8th January 2021 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13353282)
Yeah. Pelosi is pissed. McCarthy is crying this is too divisive. But that is the point.

He's terrified that this will split the GOP because they will have to stand on one side or the other.

I am sure that fact did not slip Pelosi's mind when she made this decision. it's not the mian reason but I fine it unlikely this though did not cross her mind....

portlandatheist 8th January 2021 03:33 PM

"President Trump’s conduct on January 6, 2021 was consistent with his prior efforts to subvert and obstruct the certification of the results of the 2020 presidential election. Those prior efforts include, but are not limited to, a phone call on January 2, 2021, in which President Trump urged Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to ‘‘find’’ enough votes to overturn the Georgia presidential election results and threatened Mr. Raffensperger if he failed to do so. In all of this, President Trump gravely endangered the security of the United States and its institutions of government. He threatened the integrity of the democratic system, interfered with the peaceful transition of power, and imperiled a coordinate branch of government. He thereby betrayed his trust as President, to the manifest injury of the people of the United States."

acbytesla 8th January 2021 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13353441)
Yes, but if he's not impeached, then during later elections the republican candidates will find it easier to lie about where they stand on things.

If Trump is impeached again, each congress-critter will have to give a "yay or nay" to Trump's actions in encouraging the riot. That makes it much harder for them to hide their true beliefs.

I agree with that. In fact, I know that is why Pelosi is doing it. Biden doesn't sound like he's fully on board. And the GOP could maneuver to avoid it in the Senate. Monday will leave 9 days left. If they impeached Trump on Monday which would be absurdly fast, McConnell could easily delay the start of the trial to next Monday to prevent the need for the Senators to vote.

jrhowell 8th January 2021 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13353452)
...McConnell could easily delay the start of the trial to next Monday to prevent the need for the Senators to vote.

Why? I thought that impeachment would proceed whether or not he is still in office.

Segnosaur 8th January 2021 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrhowell (Post 13353523)
Quote:

...McConnell could easily delay the start of the trial to next Monday to prevent the need for the Senators to vote.
Why? I thought that impeachment would proceed whether or not he is still in office.

Yes, I think impeachment gets voted on regardless.

Granted, if Moscow Mitch delays things, Trump would be out of office, it will be a largely symbolic act. (Although they could vote to ensure he could never hold public office again.) But senators would still be on the record either way.

slyjoe 8th January 2021 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13353580)
Yes, I think impeachment gets voted on regardless.

Granted, if Moscow Mitch delays things, Trump would be out of office, it will be a largely symbolic act. (Although they could vote to ensure he could never hold public office again.) But senators would still be on the record either way.

Agreed. Not sure it will actually play out that way though. We'll see on Monday. I think this is mostly about making republicans (in both the House and Senate) go on the record.

And sure, it's symbolic, but did you see the Kabuki theater that played out with speeches during the certification exercise? That was all symbolic. Most of what they do is symbolic except for SOME votes.

The Atheist 9th January 2021 12:32 AM

Why are Democrats so ******* stupid?

You won, Trump disintegrated, so has his party.

Whatever the party thinks it might gain from impeachment, I can tell you what it will reap: the opposite of what's intended.

The Republican party is in tatters, and the one thing that will enable them to re-build is an attack from their common enemy, the Democratic Party.

It's a time to forgive and forget, try to build alliances, try to heal the divisions, not dig them deeper. Moderate Republicans are pissed off at Trump, but they'll be a lot more pissed off at stupid old **** Nancy Pelosi showboating and making idiotic assertions that Trump might start nuclear war,

She's an idiot, and so are all the members of her party supporting her. Even if it worked, it would turn Trump into a martyr, which is just what you don't need to do.

Utter insanity that will backfire.

The Great Zaganza 9th January 2021 12:43 AM

Why is it only the Dems who need to forgive and forget?
Where are the Republicans apologizing for claiming that Democrats just engaged in massive voter fraud?

Every time Biden has tried to reach out, Republicans have spit in his face.

Susheel 9th January 2021 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13354040)
Why is it only the Dems who need to forgive and forget?
Where are the Republicans apologizing for claiming that Democrats just engaged in massive voter fraud?

Every time Biden has tried to reach out, Republicans have spit in his face.

This. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Squeegee Beckenheim 9th January 2021 01:15 AM

https://twitter.com/tenen21/status/1347724176438800389

Quote:

For those wondering if itís worth impeaching him this time, it means he:
1) loses his 200k+ pension for the rest of his life
2) loses his 1 million dollars/year travel allowance
3) loses lifetime full secret service detail
4) loses his ability to run in 2024

The Atheist 9th January 2021 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13354040)
Why is it only the Dems who need to forgive and forget?

Because the ultimate insult is to decline to lower yourself to their level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13354040)
Where are the Republicans apologizing for claiming that Democrats just engaged in massive voter fraud?

See above.

It comes down to whether the Democrats would like to get some Republican voters to switch sides.

Impeaching Trump will do the exact opposite and harden those voters' opposition to what they perceive as a bunch of over-entitled elites.

The high ground is wide open and empty - why the hell wouldn't you occupy it? Impeachment right now is pathetic and acting as dumb as Trump.

It's the American Way.

The Atheist 9th January 2021 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13354068)

So, less than Pelosi spends on shoes.

It's less than a pittance.

Stacyhs 9th January 2021 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13354035)
Why are Democrats so ******* stupid?

You won, Trump disintegrated, so has his party.

Whatever the party thinks it might gain from impeachment, I can tell you what it will reap: the opposite of what's intended.

The Republican party is in tatters, and the one thing that will enable them to re-build is an attack from their common enemy, the Democratic Party.

It's a time to forgive and forget, try to build alliances, try to heal the divisions, not dig them deeper. Moderate Republicans are pissed off at Trump, but they'll be a lot more pissed off at stupid old **** Nancy Pelosi showboating and making idiotic assertions that Trump might start nuclear war,

She's an idiot, and so are all the members of her party supporting her. Even if it worked, it would turn Trump into a martyr, which is just what you don't need to do.

Utter insanity that will backfire.

Bollocks. The GOP is not in tatters. They are wounded but they will crawl into a cave, lick their wounds, and crawl out whole again like they always do. They must be forced to face what they have wrought by their cowardly enabling of a mad man and to make a final choice now one way or the other: choose Trump or choose the survival of our Democracy.

"Forgive and Forget" my big fat arse. This should never be forgiven nor forgotten. Worked past. Yes. Learned from. Yes. I've got news for you: it's like when a spouse cheats in a marriage. The marriage may survive and they may even be happy again. But the cheated on spouse deep down never truly forgives and never, ever forgets.

Stacyhs 9th January 2021 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13354069)
Because the ultimate insult is to decline to lower yourself to their level.



See above.

It comes down to whether the Democrats would like to get some Republican voters to switch sides.

Impeaching Trump will do the exact opposite and harden those voters' opposition to what they perceive as a bunch of over-entitled elites.

The high ground is wide open and empty - why the hell wouldn't you occupy it? Impeachment right now is pathetic and acting as dumb as Trump.

It's the American Way.

Man, you are delusional.

dirtywick 9th January 2021 02:13 AM

Something triggered his public concession to Biden and commitment to a peaceful transaction. My guess is that they had enough senate votes to remove him from office. And now that heís done that, they want it to be good enough and start calling for unity.

I donít think impeachment is a turn off to voters. I think a lack of response might be. since they passed on the 25th, they punted the ball to pelosi. Not sure she has much choice.

Either way, I think itís pretty inconceivable to just walk out there and say letís let bygones be bygones and move on a day after a mob of Trump supporters forced their way into the capital at his direction. There has to be a response to that, you canít let that go.

Aridas 9th January 2021 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13354104)
Something triggered his public concession to Biden and commitment to a peaceful transaction. My guess is that they had enough senate votes to remove him from office. And now that heís done that, they want it to be good enough and start calling for unity.

I donít think impeachment is a turn off to voters. I think a lack of response might be. since they passed on the 25th, they punted the ball to pelosi. Not sure she has much choice.

Either way, I think itís pretty inconceivable to just walk out there and say letís let bygones be bygones and move on a day after a mob of Trump supporters forced their way into the capital at his direction. There has to be a response to that, you canít let that go.

I'd say that it's more likely that some of his lawyers finally managed to get him to see how much he just ****** himself, legally speaking, and that backtracking was nothing more than a reaction to try to cover his arse. I wouldn't count on him to stick by it at all, though, given Trump.

timhau 9th January 2021 02:45 AM

What I would do is welcome them with open arms and let bygones be bygones... and the hit them with the biggest knife in DC when they turn their back.

Stacyhs 9th January 2021 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timhau (Post 13354116)
What I would do is welcome them with open arms and let jygones be bygones... and the hit them with the biggest knife in DC when they turn their back.

You mean act like Republicans.

timhau 9th January 2021 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13354119)
You mean act like Republicans.

Yeah, but I'm a thin-skinned vindictive git with no principles and zero integrity.

Fast Eddie B 9th January 2021 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13354035)
Why are Democrats so ******* stupid?

You won, Trump disintegrated, so has his party.

Whatever the party thinks it might gain from impeachment, I can tell you what it will reap: the opposite of what's intended.

The Republican party is in tatters, and the one thing that will enable them to re-build is an attack from their common enemy, the Democratic Party.

It's a time to forgive and forget, try to build alliances, try to heal the divisions, not dig them deeper. Moderate Republicans are pissed off at Trump, but they'll be a lot more pissed off at stupid old **** Nancy Pelosi showboating and making idiotic assertions that Trump might start nuclear war,

She's an idiot, and so are all the members of her party supporting her. Even if it worked, it would turn Trump into a martyr, which is just what you don't need to do.

Utter insanity that will backfire.

I disagree entirely.

I ask you, if his recent actions weren’t sufficient to justify impeachment, what the hell would? I doubt he’d go to the effort right now to go to New York to shoot somebody on 5th Avenue, but suppose he did so on Pennsylvania Avenue? Would it still be “time to forgive and forget, try to build alliances, try to heal the divisions, not dig them deeper.”?

Actions must have consequences - it’s as simple as that.

JoeMorgue 9th January 2021 06:00 AM

Because a world where a sitting President can order an angry mob of conspiracy theorists to march on and storm the Capitol because he won't accept the results of an election and suffer no consequences is simply not an acceptable one.

The Great Zaganza 9th January 2021 06:17 AM

NOT impeaching Trump would be playing politics.
Impeachment is what is required by their Oath of Office.

Fast Eddie B 9th January 2021 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13354070)
So, less than Pelosi spends on shoes.

Iím just curious...

What motivated you to post that?

BobTheCoward 9th January 2021 06:55 AM

My concern is a few lawyers I follow argue that what trump said would not exceed the requirements of Brandenburg.

I like the Brandenburg standard. I would not like to see impeachment used as a way around it.

Kaylee 9th January 2021 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13354206)
Because a world where a sitting President can order an angry mob of conspiracy theorists to march on and storm the Capitol because he won't accept the results of an election and suffer no consequences is simply not an acceptable one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13354215)
NOT impeaching Trump would be playing politics.
Impeachment is what is required by their Oath of Office.

Agreed. It would be a complete dereliction of every representative and senator's duty to not respond to this - even if there may not be the votes to confirm the impeachment in the senate. Not to do so would be agreeing to normalize Trump's actions. It would continue the slide towards fascism.

jadebox 9th January 2021 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13354068)

If impeached and removed from office, a former president would lose most of those benefits, but would still receive Secret Service projection. See "18 U.S. Code ß 3056 - Powers, authorities, and duties of United States Secret Service"
(https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3056). There is no exception there for presidents removed from office as there is in the Former Presidents Act (https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/...residents.html).

Even if removed from office, a former president would still need protection, not just for his benefit, but to protect the US because of his knowledge of classified information.

The Great Zaganza 9th January 2021 07:19 AM

Well, Trump certainly needs Secret Service protection from me leaving bags of flaming poo on his doorstep.

angrysoba 9th January 2021 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13353441)

If Trump is impeached again, each congress-critter will have to give a "yay or nay" to Trump's actions in encouraging the riot. That makes it much harder for them to hide their true beliefs.

Bingo!

Go for impeachment. Let everyone know where they stood on this!

And same for the Senate when it comes to conviction.

What's that Ted Cruz? You were always totally an opponent of Trump and not just a slimy opportunist sack of ****** What's that Lindsay Graham? No, I don't want to see your video of your flambouyant gesticulations and your gazing into your soul ********. What did you vote?

Darat 9th January 2021 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadebox (Post 13354244)
If impeached and removed from office, a former president would lose most of those benefits, but would still receive Secret Service projection. See "18 U.S. Code ß 3056 - Powers, authorities, and duties of United States Secret Service"
(https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3056). There is no exception there for presidents removed from office as there is in the Former Presidents Act (https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/...residents.html).

Even if removed from office, a former president would still need protection, not just for his benefit, but to protect the US because of his knowledge of classified information.

You think he could remember anything not directly to do with how great he is?

Iím serious whilst that might be a consideration for every single President prior to Trump and every one after it really doesnít apply to him.

Plus I suspect that he will lose his protection detail quite quickly when he will not take any of their advice or instructions. When he was President he could do what he wanted and the SS simply had to deal with it. Once he stops being president he will have to abide by the SS advice and instructions if he wants their protection, which we know he simply wonít be able to do.

angrysoba 9th January 2021 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13354254)
You think he could remember anything not directly to do with how great he is?

Iím serious whilst that might be a consideration for every single President prior to Trump and every one after it really doesnít apply to him.

Plus I suspect that he will lose his protection detail quite quickly when he will not take any of their advice or instructions. When he was President he could do what he wanted and the SS simply had to deal with it. Once he stops being president he will have to abide by the SS advice and instructions if he wants their protection, which we know he simply wonít be able to do.

They should give him protection all right. They can have a guy outside his cell who takes him out for his 30 minutes mandated exercise.

I would be more than happy for his retirement in solitary confinement to be long and uninterrupted by being accidentally, brutally stabbed to death while shaving.

Garrison 9th January 2021 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13354069)
Because the ultimate insult is to decline to lower yourself to their level.



See above.

It comes down to whether the Democrats would like to get some Republican voters to switch sides.

Impeaching Trump will do the exact opposite and harden those voters' opposition to what they perceive as a bunch of over-entitled elites.

The high ground is wide open and empty - why the hell wouldn't you occupy it? Impeachment right now is pathetic and acting as dumb as Trump.

It's the American Way.

Funny how its only the Democrats who should pursue unity, with unity of course meaning making concessions to the party that was only too happy to back a President who tried to overthrow democracy. And lets not forget Whitewater, birtherism, Benghazi, Hilary's emails, blocking Merrick Garland's nomination because it should be left to the next President and then doing a 180 when it suited them? And lets not forget all those Trumpistas who remain convinced that he was robbed of the Presidency in the face of all evidence to the contrary, you think the Democratic Party should reach to them? Or do you mean the mythical moderate Republicans everyone insists still exists even though they are seen less often than bigfoot? Grow up FFS, if you want to .heal the wounds. the onus is on the Republicans to change and impeaching Trup would be a good start.

Garrison 9th January 2021 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because a world where a sitting President can order an angry mob of conspiracy theorists to march on and storm the Capitol because he won't accept the results of an election and suffer no consequences is simply not an acceptable one.
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
NOT impeaching Trump would be playing politics.
Impeachment is what is required by their Oath of Office.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee (Post 13354238)
Agreed. It would be a complete dereliction of every representative and senator's duty to not respond to this - even if there may not be the votes to confirm the impeachment in the senate. Not to do so would be agreeing to normalize Trump's actions. It would continue the slide towards fascism.

Also agreed, if this isn't an impeachable offence what on earth would be?

Meadmaker 9th January 2021 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13354040)
Why is it only the Dems who need to forgive and forget?
Where are the Republicans apologizing for claiming that Democrats just engaged in massive voter fraud?

Every time Biden has tried to reach out, Republicans have spit in his face.

For the same reason it was up to Abraham Lincoln, instead of Jefferson Davis.



I wouldn't exactly say that it was time to forgive, and I sure as heck don't want to forget, but what I absolutely do not want is an opportunity for Trump to claim victory as his last act in office.

If the Democrats drop the impeachment crusade, Trump leaves office humiliated, blubbering, hiding away without even a Twitter account to turn to. If the Democrats pursue impeachment and lose, Trump leaves office a victim, who fought the deep state and an implacable foe right to the very end.

In an earlier post, I note that if you force people to go on record, they often go on record against you, because they are mad at being forced. The Democrats should understand that they aren't just forcing the Republican elected officials to go on record. They are forcing all citizens to "go on record" in every political discussion. The average person saw what happened on Wednesday and was disgusted, and the Democrats' hands were completely clean of it. Don't jump down into the gutter to wrestle with that pig.


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